Mask of the Betrayer Redux

[Pop]

Okay, explain to me what exactly is going on on the screen.

I turn on Debug Mode, and change my alignment (is there a way to reduce craving via the console?) and then turn debug mode off, but the green expanses of ground where the triggers are remain, and I can't have my characters move onto them.

 

I just reloaded the game, and it seems to be working now.

[jaguars4ever]

You might want to ~DebugMode 0 one more time, Pop. I suspect you may still have it on.

 

And here are the spirit cheats:

 

 

 

ka_se_feat_add_all --> Get all Spirit Eater feats

rs ka_se_init --> Give Soul Eater status

rs ka_se_init --> Give soul eater status: also gives 100 spirit points (if you removed the curse by the above command)

rs ka_se_terminate --> Remove Soul Eater status

rs ka_se_terminate --> Remove soul eater status: useful for refilling spirit energy

rs ka_se_points_set(100.0) --> Sets your spirit bar back to 100

 

 

 

http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/code/939027.html

[Gorgon]

Will removing the curse with the console screw up the game you think ?

 

If not i'm doing that yesterday.

[Tigranes]

Have a backup, but I don't think so, unless you try to Devour through dialogue or sommat.

 

If it does screw the game, just use the last cheat above to refill points to 100 every time you need.

[Meshugger]

Has anyone actually managed to play through MotB, without cheats, as a warlock? I am currently playing the original OC as chaotic good one, and i am already starting to have doubts about this. Hopefully a patch will remove "+1 lawful" for every time you use "supress".

 

I wouldn't like to cheat unless it is really necessary.

Edited October 29, 2007 by Meshugger

[Tale]

I played through MotB as a Warlock. The trick is to not bother suppressing. You're either chaotic or you're evil, so stop being a pansy and start devouring some souls.

Edited October 29, 2007 by Tale

[Tigranes]

Which reminds me, do you get a crafting essence for devouring the Founder? I spared her you see.

[Meshugger]

I played through MotB as a Warlock. The trick is to not bother suppressing. You're either chaotic or you're evil, so stop being a pansy and start devouring some souls.

 

Oh, i don't mind devour a soul or two. I just find it strange that supressing means that you're lawful.

[Tale]

Which reminds me, do you get a crafting essence for devouring the Founder? I spared her you see.

You get crafting essences for devouring your companions, even.

[Starwars]

I played a Neutral Evil Warlock that *only* used Supress (except in dialogues) and I ended up almost the exact same alignment as I had when starting.

[Sand]

All this about deouring souls makes me want to play Pac Man.

[Cantousent]

Suppressing is lawful. If we're going to use the terrible DnD alignment rules, we should recognize actions for what they are. Devouring spirits is not good. Devouring souls is evil. Suppressing is lawful. Anything that requires such a monumental amount of self-restraint is lawful of some sort or another. Rather than unleash your hunger, you subdue it. This is especially true of characters who follow a strict regimen of suppression. Yes, there are other ways to show your desire for unbridled personal freedom, but constant use of suppression isn't it.

[Tale]

The high craving abilities are better than I initially gave them credit for. One of them is Ethereal (or incorporeal or something, forget the name), I believe. Which is effectively giving you permanent 50% concealment against attacks. It was nice.

 

Suppressing is lawful. If we're going to use the terrible DnD alignment rules, we should recognize actions for what they are. Devouring spirits is not good. Devouring souls is evil. Suppressing is lawful. Anything that requires such a monumental amount of self-restraint is lawful of some sort or another. Rather than unleash your hunger, you subdue it. This is especially true of characters who follow a strict regimen of suppression. Yes, there are other ways to show your desire for unbridled personal freedom, but constant use of suppression isn't it.

 

Since it's a curse that threatens to kill you and lead you to eternal torment, wouldn't giving in and devouring be closer to a neutral act than an evil act? You're not exactly doing it for gain. Though, I agree on the part about suppression being lawful. The devouring of animal and elementals doesn't seem too evil, especially given circumstances.

Edited October 29, 2007 by Tale

[jaguars4ever]

Has anyone actually managed to play through MotB, without cheats, as a warlock? I am currently playing the original OC as chaotic good one, and i am already starting to have doubts about this. Hopefully a patch will remove "+1 lawful" for every time you use "supress".

 

I wouldn't like to cheat unless it is really necessary.

There's a mod that removes the alignment shift from using suppress. Really useful for a warlock: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NWN2S...tail&id=165

 

Also, here's an editor to change back your alignments (an alternative to the cumbersome console commands): http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=247

[Azarkon]

This is why alignment systems suck... For every rationale you invent with regards to the shifts an action should produce, somebody will argue the opposite. It just goes out to show that in the real world, morality truly is, to a large degree, relative.

[Cantousent]

Devouring spirits, as I understood it at the time, was supposed to be chaotic. However, as it's really no different than eating meat, I suppose, in that some folks find devouring meat distasteful but it's a ready source of protein. In much the same way, devouring spirits is a steady source or spirit energy and you'll die without it. The difference is that animals are not articulate, while many of the spirits that serve as food for the PC are. Ulitmately, I think devouring spirits should not carry any penalty or alignment shift. It's like eating, drinking, or breathing. I still don't think it's good to devour spirits, but in that sense I'm kind of like a spirit energy vegan. :Cant's tongue in cheek icon: Devouring souls is clearly an evil act.

 

This was a source of some contention while I was there, since some folks wondered why devouring souls should be considered evil while killing the enemy was not. I believed then, as I do now, that devouring souls eradicated the victim and therefore transcended death. There is a lot of evidence in the game to support this assumption. I don't want to cite the examples in the non spoiler thread, but examples spring readily to mind.

 

So, all that and I simply agree with you. Devouring Spirits is not necessarily evil, but some folks will view it with varying degrees of disdain, distaste, or even outright revulsion.

[Meshugger]

Has anyone actually managed to play through MotB, without cheats, as a warlock? I am currently playing the original OC as chaotic good one, and i am already starting to have doubts about this. Hopefully a patch will remove "+1 lawful" for every time you use "supress".

 

I wouldn't like to cheat unless it is really necessary.

There's a mod that removes the alignment shift from using suppress. Really useful for a warlock: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NWN2S...tail&id=165

 

Also, here's an editor to change back your alignments (an alternative to the cumbersome console commands): http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=247

 

Thank you

 

And Azarkon had a good point as well, but that is for another thread.

[Tale]

nevermind

Edited October 29, 2007 by Tale

[Pop]

This is why alignment systems suck... For every rationale you invent with regards to the shifts an action should produce, somebody will argue the opposite. It just goes out to show that in the real world, morality truly is, to a large degree, relative.

Difference of opinion =/= lack of objective fact phi 101, kids. MotB shows a pretty strong thomistic undercurrent in the D&D universe. The curse is unnatural, using it disrupts the natural order, thus it is evil.

Edited October 29, 2007 by Pop

[Tale]

The curse is not unnatural. It was created by a former Greater Deity.

 

I would think disruption of natural order to be more chaotic, either way.

 

 

Suppression, on the other hand is lawful and good because, while it may not seem this way to us as players, it is supposedly a great force of willpower. It's not the choice to suppress that is lawful, but what it inherits from the RP of the act as something that is hard to accomplish and using it represents discipline.

Edited October 29, 2007 by Tale

[Pop]

We're using different definitions for "natural". The curse allows one to destroy spirits, and spirits are more or less not meant to be destroyed outside of special circumstances (a tree spirit dying with his tree, etc.). Devouring souls is both chaotic and evil, since annihilating souls disrupts the natural order in a greater way (prevents them from reaching rest in the planes, etc.) and is inherently malicious.

 

Further (and better) proof of MotB's thomistic bent is shown by

The Wall of the Faithless situation. While it is plausible and not unlikely that the PC isn't allowed to tear down the wall because it would screw with greater D&D cosmology (assuming as we do that MotB is now canon in some way) Kelemvor's reasoning also points to thomism. The Wall of the Faithless serves a given purpose, and even while it might seem unjust, the Wall has to exist, because it serves that vital purpose. And given Kaelyn's condition in the optimal epilogue, denying the necessity of the Wall has negative spiritual consequences, however minor they might seem (Kaelyn has basically fallen).

 

Edited October 29, 2007 by Pop

[Tale]

We're using different definitions for "natural". The curse allows one to destroy spirits, and spirits are more or less not meant to be destroyed outside of special circumstances (a tree spirit dying with his tree, etc.). Devouring souls is both chaotic and evil, since annihilating souls disrupts the natural order in a greater way (prevents them from reaching rest in the planes, etc.) and is inherently malicious.

We can't be certain that the spirits are destroyed. Though it seems highly likely that is what Obsidian intended for us to believe. And for that I can credit your position.

 

However, the choices in Mask of the Betrayer with regards to the soul eater mechanic need an understanding of the character's situation in order to appreciate. It is not truly a choice for the character to devour a soul. He has to. The devouring of souls becomes, to him, a highly natural state. The sole exception to this is with, as you can see in reading the description for supress, a remarkable excercise of willpower.

 

It is simple for us, as players, to see it as a choice and devouring the spirit as malicious. But, judging by what is presented in narratives and descriptions as the game, it's not so easy for the character. It's not as easy as choosing between two abilities. He's supposed to devour as an almost natural state. We only ever hear of one other Soul Eater who just lays down and dies. We never hear of one other who suppresses it. And despite how "malicious" the act supposedly is, there is not a single character in the game who condemns the PC for it outside of the few times he expresses it as a concious choice (in dialogues). This all fits in with the description for suppress that seems to regard to act of suppressing as almost supernaturally difficult (and how useless it is for non-Okku companion PCs who have significant craving), despite how easy it is for a player to just press the button.

 

Maybe Obsidian could have presented this more clearly.

[Pop]

I think, really, we ought to view the choice between devouring and suppressing as a choice between two natural states. Obviously (and it's spelled out for you many times within the game) you are the Spirit Eater, but suppressing your hunger is an act of will that denies what you are and, as far as it can, brings you closer to what you should be, that is, not someone who eats spirits.

 

It should be noted that in real life, this kind of thinking is only really taken seriously by the deeply religious, especially those in the catholic tradition. We can sort of view the Spirit Eater the way a devout catholic might view a gay person, for example. It might very well be the case that the gay person feels a natural inclination, a temptation, towards being gay. However, God's Law dictates that one ought not be gay. Thus the right thing for the gay person to do (the "natural" thing, "natural" here meaning what God wants) would be to deny temptation, the way the right thing for the SE to do is suppress his hunger. Of course, this sort of thinking would be much stronger in the FR, where there's an easily discernible order and structure to the universe and the Gods obviously exist. A character like Kaelyn, whose ideas make quite a bit of sense to the modern player, is actually quite subversive as far as D&D goes. I give Obsidian a lot of credit for that.

Edited October 29, 2007 by Pop

[Cantousent]

Keep in mind, however, that either choice of action (devouring or suppressing) will result in the character's death. The only way to end the curse (or remain alive while embracing it) is to finish the game. Otherwise, the PC will die. Suppressing and feeding, in any combination, will never suffice to allow the PC to survive.

 

Suppression is, as Tale notes, a supreme act of willpower. While our view of good and evil tends to be subject more to the underlying intent, the idea behind suppression is inherently lawful.

 

On the other hand, devouring the spirit of a sentient being is evil. That the PC is forced into the unenviable position where he feels compelled to devour spirits to live does not change that fact. I just don't see how a computer game could implement alignment without these sorts of quandries.

 

I don't even remember if Devour Spirit carries any penalty or alignment shift. Last time I played it, it didn't.

 

The Spirit Eater mechanic, like most things in games, is open for abuse. For instance, I bugged the fact that the PC may invoke Bestow Life Force even when no-one in the party is wounded. He loses no Spirit Energy, as there is no wound to heal, but he gains two points towards good and, if I remember correctly, reduces craving. That's undoubtedly broken. I don't think they changed it, so all you Lawful Evil characters in Paladin's garb know how to work the system to stay completely good while retaining your Lawful Good status.

 

The point is, we have all of these alignment rules and they simply open up more opportunity for exploit on one side and inflict irritation on the other. MotB handled the alignment mechanic very well, but the mechanic itself sucks.

[Gorgon]

If my character is about to undergo a major alignment change I would sure like to know in advance, and the reasoning better be logical. The supress ability is not inherrently lawful if your motivation simply is to use your spirit ability for the day.

 

Who says my character gives a rats arse about the metaphysical ramifications of not devouring spirits.

 

In NWN2 I started out as neutral, and through dialouge and actions spanning the whole campaign I shifted to Neutral Good, this worked rather well. More care needs to be taken, alignment shift triggers shouldn't just be thrown out in the game willy nilly.