President Ahmadinejad's Speech at Columbia University

[Sand]

From my experience when you have two extremes in historical recounting of events, the truth, more often than not, lies somewhere in the middle.

Edited October 4, 2007 by Sand

[Pop]

I Ran.

Funny, but not worthy of the Aphex Twin loop.

[Gorgon]

"I even consider the treatment the Jewish people receive in Iran is better than how the US government treats its black and Hispanic citizens."

 

Please don't post delusional stuff. It's embarassing. Iran doesn't even treat its Muslim citizens cproperly let alone their Jewish ones. L0L

 

Black and hispanic citizens in the US have 100% the same rights as their caucasion, asian, and even muslim citizens under the law and in practice. Of course, sadly, sometimes those in powers treat minorties wrongly; but if they get cuaght they usually don't last long.

 

Some silly radio announcer even lost his job because he said some insensitive comments about a group of female blacks despite the country brags about free speech.

 

Racism exists in the US; but it's highly frowned upon. Unlike Iran where racism, and bigotry is accepted and encouraged.

Still, it's interesting that there would be a jewish minority who perfer to live in Iran over Israel. Maybe the day to day goings on in Iran haven't got as much to do with politics or prejudice as we think. I guess it's like living in China, as long as you don't voice any strong opinions the government will leave you alone.

[DeathScepter]

*is laughing due to the nature of this thread*

 

 

 

No comment

[Yuusha]

Well, it takes two to tango, I suppose. The fact is both sides need to move beyond their bloody history with one another if there is to be any peace. That means both sides need to focus on building a future together, rather than destroying the other. But hey, that's just the whiskey talking.

And it takes three to do a threesome. If only more Americans would open their eyes like this guy:

 

The US will not dare to criticize Israel for its Crimes

By Charley Reese

 

The Israelis bulldozed another 14 Palestinian homes this week in a refugee camp in Gaza. The United States said the act was "provocative."

 

Actually, it was a war crime. Actually, what the Israelis have been doing to the Palestinians has been correctly characterized by the International Red Cross as war crimes and by a United Nations official as "an affront to civilization."

 

But, hey, you misled, sleeping Americans, you don't know what a breakthrough it is for the U.S. State Department to utter even the mildest criticism of some Israeli atrocity.

 

"Provocative."

 

Wow. Golly gee whiz. Old George W. Bush promised he would provide leadership, and that's real leadership, calling a war crime "provocative." Finally, after eight months of refusing to utter even that bland a criticism, he managed to say the destruction of homes so precious to such terribly poor people is "provocative."

 

It is such an improvement over Warren Christopher. When he was secretary of state, the Israelis were indulging in one of their periodic and gratuitous artillery attacks against villages in south Lebanon.

A group of about 100 Lebanese women and children fled to a United Nations compound for safety. It didn't matter. The Israelis fired on it deliberately, as a subsequent U.N. investigation demonstrated. They were all killed, along with the U.N. peacekeepers. Bits and pieces of their flesh hung like grotesque decorations, dripping blood from shattered debris and blasted trees.

 

Do you know what Christopher said?

 

"The United States urges both sides to show restraint."

I wonder how he expected the shattered flesh of the dead Lebanese women and children to show restraint. Perhaps he thought that they should not bleed so profusely from their wounds. I think that was the very first time I felt ashamed to be an American, listening to that rat-faced, cold-blooded international lawyer brushing off an atrocity like a crumb on his expensive coat sleeve.

 

One day, Americans are going to wake up from more than 50 years of Zionist propaganda and suddenly feel like strangers in a strange land, to borrow the title of an old science-fiction work. They're finally going to see the simple truth:

Israelis drove Palestinians out of their own country and confiscated their land and wealth. Israelis refused to allow (and still refuse) Palestinian refugees to return, despite United Nations resolutions instructing them to do so.

 

In 1967, the Israelis attacked and took the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem. Since then, they have ruled it and still rule, despite U.N. resolutions against their actions. Now, after dragging out so-called peace negotiations for 10 years-how can the simple question, "When are you going to withdraw from the territories you illegally occupy?" take 10 years?-the drama is heading toward a climax.

 

The Israelis have tried economic strangulation. They have tried to force the Palestinians to accept a chopped-up pseudo-country. They have tried killing their children, demolishing their homes and assassinating their leaders. They tried uprooting their agricultural orchards and sealing the Palestinians off from normal travel.

 

By the way, where are you environmentalists while the Israelis commit this environmental atrocity? Don't you know how long it takes for an olive tree to reach maturity and start bearing fruit? I thought you were concerned about the environment. Oh, excuse me-not when it's a Palestinian environment. My mistake. I sometimes forget who is a hypocrite and who isn't, because there are so many these days.

 

What's next, of course, is for the Israelis to take off the bloody glove and commit one super massacre in an attempt to drive the Palestinians out or to break their spirit. This is what the Palestinians expect. They are bracing for it. They know that the Israelis have elected the one politician, Ariel Sharon, willing to do it.

They figure they can absorb that blow. If the survivors can rise from the rubble and say to the Israelis, "You can bury us here, but you can never drive us out of our own country," then the Israelis will have exhausted their options. They will dump Sharon and replace him with somebody who will finally, at long last, do some serious talking.

 

It's already terrible what the Palestinians are going through, and this new assault, when it comes, will be far worse. They need the support now of decent people with the courage to stand up for human rights. As you can see, the Bush administration prefers to remain on its knees. Most members of Congress are afraid even to do that. They prefer the supine position, total prostration.

 

If you can't find the courage to speak out against evil financed with your tax money, then at least watch as Palestinian children show you how real men and women live and die with honor!

[Guest The Architect]

What exactly is a "crime against humanity"?

 

A crime against humanity is an act of any sort of large scale brutality or maltreatment made against groups of people. It's at the utmost level of criminal offence.

 

This concept goes all the way back to the Nuremberg Charter of 1945 for the trial of the major Nazi war criminals. And in the Nuremberg Charter of 1945, drafted by the United States Government, there was created and inserted a new type of international crime specifically intended to deal with the Nazi persecution of the Jewish People. The paradigmatic example of a "crime against humanity" is what Hitler and the Nazis did to the Jewish People. This is where the concept of crime against humanity came from.

 

And this is what the U.N. Human Rights Commission determined that Israel is and have been doing to the Palestinian People: Crimes against humanity. Legally, just like what Hitler and the Nazis did to the Jews.

The Precursor to Genocide

Moreover, a crime against humanity is the direct historical and legal precursor to the international crime of genocide as defined by the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. The theory here was that what Hitler and the Nazis did to the Jewish People required a special international treaty that would codify and universalize the Nuremberg concept of "crime against humanity." And that treaty ultimately became the 1948 Genocide Convention.

In fairness, you will note that the U.N. Human Rights Commission did not go so far as to condemn Israel for committing genocide against the Palestinian People. But it has condemned Israel for committing crimes against humanity, which is the direct precursor to genocide.

 

Since 1945, even before Israel was recognized as a (state), Israelis have NEVER stopped to commit all kinds of violation of the international laws that protects civilians under occupation.

 

Mr. Ahmadinejad is fighting to end this injustice. Hell yeah I'm gonna support him!!!

 

What does this have to do with anything? What I basically said was that Ahmad's Iranian Government torture and abuse people from their county who oppose them. And that's wrong, since having a difference of opinion doesn't justify the use of any perverted, malicious behaviour.

 

Then you come out and say about how bad Israel are and how you support Ahmad because he wants to stop the injustices they're causing to Palestinians. You're dodging the point I was trying to make, which is that this Ahmad guy is a hypocritical jerk, and I'm questioning your support of a hypocritical jerk, because I have no earthly idea why one would support an **** like that for.

 

You've given your reason, yes, and I'm not doubting that the Israeli Government have been a bunch of jerks to the Palestinians, and it's good that Ahmad opposes that, but you've just gone and turned a blind eye to what I was saying. And personally, I don't know enough about the Israel/Palestine situation to be so sure that Palestine hasn't been just as bad as Israel has.

 

Ok fine! You're not a racist. But lemme just say that you truly are your father's son. You know what I'm talking about, dont'cha sweetie...

 

I never knew you were gay for me up till now.

[Tigranes]

Palestinian children show you how real men and women live and die with honor!

 

It amazes me how many people don't have a proper definition of 'honour', and instead just go by what is 'honouristic'. All the more so if someone's been watching too many action flicks.

 

I'm not going to reply to every single one of Yuusha's posts (there are a lot and they are long); but generally, Yuusha... you give us a lot of information. And a lot of analyses, and articles, and whatnot. A lot of stuff. But you do not provide the necessary context. After all, Israelis bulldozing Palestinian homes: not a good thing. Definitely. But Israelis are not the devil and many of them are doing it for a particular cause. So what makes them bulldoze Palestinian hoems? Why do they feel the need to be so exceptionally harsh, as you have described? If you don't consider or provide the proper *context* to all these things, then we are no closer to understanding why all these terrible things are happening than before you began. We have not advanced in understanding at all of the situation; all you have done is work yourself up into an emotion of anger (which you feel is justified) and injustice that leads you to say, at least Ahmadinejad is against all this killing.

 

That's the real beef people have with your arguments. Nobody is denying that, say, Israelis bulldozing Palestinian homes aren't bad; nobody would deny that a long-standing US diplomatic strategy is to downplay Israeli war crimes. But blindly throwing yourself behind Palestinian militia or suicide bombers (who apparently have more 'honour' than Israeli military. Why? If any of them have 'honour', then its the same 'honour' for both of them. Fighting for a cause and dealing atrocious damage to the other side, including civilians.) is just as mistaken. The key is to think about the context and ask WHY are these people driven to such acts, than saying, they did these acts, so they're bad. I don't care about anything else, they're bad and I'll support whoever that is against these bastards.

Edited October 5, 2007 by Tigranes

[Yuusha]

@The Architect:

And this is why a common thug* like you would never triumph against a Jedi**.

 

What does this have to do with anything? What I basically said was that Ahmad's Iranian Government torture and abuse people from their county who oppose them. And that's wrong, since having a difference of opinion doesn't justify the use of any perverted, malicious behaviour.

 

Then you come out and say about how bad Israel are and how you support Ahmad because he wants to stop the injustices they're causing to Palestinians. You're dodging the point I was trying to make, which is that this Ahmad guy is a hypocritical jerk, and I'm questioning your support of a hypocritical jerk, because I have no earthly idea why one would support an **** like that for.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you ask me the reason why I supported Mr. Ahmadinejad? And in response, I gave you my reasons. So what's the problem?

 

Saying Israel is bad is an understatement, EVIL would be a fair description. And I'm not just saying that, I have proof to back it up. I can't say the same about you claiming Mr. Ahmadinejad to be a Hypocrite, while bringing nothing to the table.

 

You've given your reason, yes, and I'm not doubting that the Israeli Government have been a bunch of jerks to the Palestinians, and it's good that Ahmad opposes that, but you've just gone and turned a blind eye to what I was saying. And personally, I don't know enough about the Israel/Palestine situation to be so sure that Palestine hasn't been just as bad as Israel has.

That's right little one, you don't know jack! So why don't you run along home and study history some more.

 

According to Human Rights Watch, the Iranian Government routinely tortures and abuses imprisoned dissidents, including through elongated isolated captivity. And the source of this information from Human Rights came from their Judiciary, liable to Ali someone, and on other members appointed by this Ahmad guy, so don't question the credibility of the information.

First of all, how could you expect me to not doubt your sources when the best you can come up with is, "Information by some human rights activist named Ali Someone." Are you retarded? Lemme tell you something, there's lots of Alis out there. There's Ali Baba, Ali Akbar, Muhammad Ali, Ali Larter, PRINCE ALI and so on and so forth. SO WHICH ALI IS IT?

 

I never knew you were gay for me up till now.

Is this supposed to be an insult? Awwww.... I'm devastated.

 

 

 

*Common thug: The Architect.

**Jedi Master: Me.

[Tigranes]

By the way, Yuusha... I believe you said you were a Muslim. What does the Koran say about humility and arrogance? What does telling someone to go study history some more say, when Saladin was humble even in total victory?

 

Arguing for your cause is perfectly fine, and it is admirable, even if I don't agree with your points. But to insult the other side (even if 'they started it first') and arrogantly put them down hurts both your cause and you as a person. I may dally in Christianity, and I may not be an expert on Muslim, but one of the (many) things I always admired about devoted of that faith was their humility and politeness. I see neither here.

[Sand]

If it was up to me I would stop financing Israel. They don't need it any more. I would use that money for other nations that do need it, like Afganistan.

[Guest The Architect]

@The Architect:

And this is why a common thug* like you would never triumph against a Jedi**.

 

Ah, yeah; this isn

[Hurlshort]

Yuusha, do you believe there is an innocent side in this conflict? No one is claiming that the US and Israel haven't commited violent acts in this conflict. What I'm saying is that both sides need to leave it behind in order to have any peace. If you go into mediation filled with fury and vengeance on the brain, you won't get anywhere.

[Meshugger]

So much anger.

 

I think that the middle east needs a "flower power"-movement with Woodstock, an arabian version of Jimi Hendrix, Beatles and Rolling Stones playing with *LONG* hair and NO beards (Rebels, you know). Add some free love and drugs and see everything trancend into a new age of enlightment and human solidarity.

 

Imagine it, instead of bombs, they would throw flowers at the Israeli military, run around naked high on LCD and hump each other whenever they feel like it. Who would want to fire a bullet then? Demolish a home? Bomb a mosque?

 

Peace would be a reality within a week.

[Hurlshort]

So much anger.

 

I think that the middle east needs a "flower power"-movement with Woodstock, an arabian version of Jimi Hendrix, Beatles and Rolling Stones playing with *LONG* hair and NO beards (Rebels, you know). Add some free love and drugs and see everything trancend into a new age of enlightment and human solidarity.

 

Imagine it, instead of bombs, they would throw flowers at the Israeli military, run around naked high on LCD and hump each other whenever they feel like it. Who would want to fire a bullet then? Demolish a home? Bomb a mosque?

 

Peace would be a reality within a week.

 

I second this motion. Do we have a third?

[SteveThaiBinh]

I second this motion. Do we have a third?

Yes. I can totally see this working.

[Meshugger]

Yuusha: See, it's not that difficult. Here's a daffodil, from me to you

 

[Pop]

As I understand it, there's already a significant flower-power movement in Israel. How else to explain Infected Mushroom?

[Sand]

As I understand it, there's already a significant flower-power movement in Israel. How else to explain Infected Mushroom?

Adam West.

[Yuusha]

@Tigranes:

It amazes me how many people don't have a proper definition of 'honour', and instead just go by what is 'honouristic'. All the more so if someone's been watching too many action flicks.

I just like to add a disclaimer that I did not write the article you're referring to. But I do agree with every word of it.

 

If fighting for your homeland is not considered honorable, then you tell me what the hell is?

 

I'm not going to reply to every single one of Yuusha's posts (there are a lot and they are long); but generally, Yuusha... you give us a lot of information. And a lot of analyses, and articles, and whatnot. A lot of stuff. But you do not provide the necessary context. After all, Israelis bulldozing Palestinian homes: not a good thing. Definitely. But Israelis are not the devil and many of them are doing it for a particular cause. So what makes them bulldoze Palestinian hoems? Why do they feel the need to be so exceptionally harsh, as you have described? If you don't consider or provide the proper *context* to all these things, then we are no closer to understanding why all these terrible things are happening than before you began. We have not advanced in understanding at all of the situation; all you have done is work yourself up into an emotion of anger (which you feel is justified) and injustice that leads you to say, at least Ahmadinejad is against all this killing.

 

That's the real beef people have with your arguments. Nobody is denying that, say, Israelis bulldozing Palestinian homes aren't bad; nobody would deny that a long-standing US diplomatic strategy is to downplay Israeli war crimes. But blindly throwing yourself behind Palestinian militia or suicide bombers (who apparently have more 'honour' than Israeli military. Why? If any of them have 'honour', then its the same 'honour' for both of them. Fighting for a cause and dealing atrocious damage to the other side, including civilians.) is just as mistaken. The key is to think about the context and ask WHY are these people driven to such acts, than saying, they did these acts, so they're bad. I don't care about anything else, they're bad and I'll support whoever that is against these bastards.

Look, I did not join this forum with the preconceived notion that I was smarter or more intelligent than everyone else here. But I do think that I just might be a bit more 'informed' with what's really going on between Israel and Palestine. I firmly believe that most 'western' people are not privy to these kinds of information due to the subjectivity of the western media.

 

For most of the 20th century, we Muslims have been getting our asses kicked time and time again by the combined powers of Israel and the USA. We're constantly being insulted, ridiculed and demonized in the media so friggin much that some of us sometimes just want to 'submit' to the will of our oppressors.

 

"Stop it! We've had enough... Just stop..."

 

This is what one of my sisters said before breaking down in tears in my mosque when we heard news of yet another Israeli atrocity. My brothers? They're enraged. The word "JIHAD" was heard repeatedly. Me? I just sat there feeling like crap, cursing my powerlessness.

 

Well, you get the picture.

 

These are dark times we're facing. All I can do in behalf of my brothers and sisters in Palestine is to pray for them. So you'll understand if our definition of 'HONOR' slightly differs from yours.

[GreasyDogMeat]

Calling Israel evil... that must help rationalize all the suicide bombings and 'faults' of Ahmadinejad. Guess the U.S. had 9-11 coming for supporting Israel too.

 

"For most of the 20th century, we Muslims have been getting our asses kicked time and time again by the combined powers of Israel and the USA. We're constantly being insulted, ridiculed and demonized in the media so friggin much that some of us sometimes just want to 'submit' to the will of our oppressors.

 

"Stop it! We've had enough... Just stop..."

 

This is what one of my sisters said before breaking down in tears in my mosque when we heard news of yet another Israeli atrocity. My brothers? They're enraged. The word "JIHAD" was heard repeatedly. Me? I just sat there feeling like crap, cursing my powerlessness."

 

Gee, I wonder if your mosque reports on all of the terrorist and Palestinian atrocities. Did they do a little announcement on Hamas attacks from civilian targets and how they used the counter attacks as propaganda? "Look at big bad Israel firing on civilian targets!" You talk of media spin while getting your news from a mosque... irony?

 

"Stop it! We've had enough... Just stop..." Yeah, its all Israels fault... it wouldn't require any joint effort would it? How many Israeli mothers say the same thing when they learn their son or daughter has been turned into chunky mix thanks to some **** blowing himself up on a crowded bus or mall?

Edited October 5, 2007 by GreasyDogMeat

[Volourn]

Well said, GMD.

 

I just gotta say one thing. The poster Yuusha seems full of hate. So much so Yussha is basically dehumaning an entire country (even two). Gah. And, at that time, claims that it feels bad when it happens to Yussha' people.

 

Look in the mirror. That's all.

[Aram]

This is what one of my sisters said before breaking down in tears in my mosque when we heard news of yet another Israeli atrocity. My brothers? They're enraged. The word "JIHAD" was heard repeatedly. Me? I just sat there feeling like crap, cursing my powerlessness.

 

Jesus. I thought that was just a stereotype.

 

 

 

 

Also, I'm confused. This was some sort of Jedi mosque?

Rage is the path to the darkside, young padawan.

[Gorgon]

This would be so easy if there was an actual democratic tradition in the palestinean governance. We would have sanctions against Israel and international condemnation, unfortunately there is so much sectarianism and support of suicide bombings that

we are pretty ****ing far from Ghandi territory here. There is no viable partner for Israel to negotiate with, maybe that was the plan all along in isolating and cutting them off from trade and any sense of progress for so long, who knows.

 

No real sense that things are going to get better any time soon, just more of the same.

[Calax]

question: what happens if the bombings stop?

 

general answer thus far: media coverage also stops as everything is going fine. Said media coverage is somthing both sides want so they allow at least some of the bombings to continue so that the american and international medias stay on it to keep donations pouring in. At least thats how a highschool history teacher explained it to my class.

[Pop]

This is what one of my sisters said before breaking down in tears in my mosque when we heard news of yet another Israeli atrocity. My brothers? They're enraged. The word "JIHAD" was heard repeatedly. Me? I just sat there feeling like crap, cursing my powerlessness.

 

Jesus. I thought that was just a stereotype.

Warning: This link leads to a really annoying page that won't let you close it. Use with extreme caution.

Unfortunately not

 

[edit by SteveThaiBinh]