And thus, another anniversary for a heinous and tragic event is created.

[metadigital]

I think the analogy with a loan is a good one (I was very pleased with myself when I thought of it. ^_^)

 

Everyone can apply for credit, after all.

[Calax]

Of course, the last time a school tried to take action based on something some kid wrote, half the internet exploded with outrage.

given that figuring out the easiest way to pull off a shooting, THEN writing it down is considered a terrorist act/threat.

[Gorgon]

What I see as a possible way forward is to change the process of gaining fire-arms.

 

The absence of evidence of pathological behaviour is only relevant if there is a history. Just as I cannot take out a loan without proving myself as a good credit risk, so too should potential gun owners have a probationary period where they can demonstrate their soundness of mind. Much like a driver or a pilot has to sit an exam and prove competence.

I believe they said there is no waitning period in Georgia. Pass the background check and you take the gun home right then and there.

[Walsingham]

Aram, it's not about being weird. its about:

 

Weird + History of actual criminal damage + social isolation + deadly weapons.

 

At least so it seems to me.

 

Like I say, although far from perfect the UK has at least some mechanism whereby this could have been nipped in the bud. Certainly at the point he was referred for counselling someone would have been on the case.

 

Well, I forgot about that second one, but I don't believe that the other three are enough that the government needs to send someone to get involved in your business.

 

Fair enough. But I do think that if you want to retain the freedom to the last of these things you have to accept more monitoring of the first three. That or accept these sorts of incidents. Which is your prerogative.

 

Edit: (didn't see the next page)

 

Social isolation is a serious co-factor in aberrant behaviour of any kind. It cuts the individual off from normalising influences. It also can lead to them descending into a subculture or subcultures that exacerbate latent tendencies. It's step one in cult brainwashing 101, and suicide bomber grooming. I have to say that I can also see that if the man was cut off from normal world interactions and existed in a cognitive space dominated solely by shooting people for years on end it might have some effect. But we're talking counterstrike like Morgan Spurlock ate Maccy Ds.

 

Also I think you may be misinterpreting what I said in terms of govt coming into your house with SWAT teams and making you talk through childhood issues. According to a friend of mine who runs a young persons institute here in the UK you'd be amazed how many people will come to you if you make it clear there is nothing wrong with doing so, and that you care. Of course there may be instances where you need to oblige the person to get help, but that's what the courts are for. In this case when he started stalking people, setting fire to stuff, and phoning in bomb threats.

[GreasyDogMeat]

I think his writings should have been a fairly clear sign. He wrote a play called Mr. (forget the name) about a teacher who gives 4 students detention, the students then want to kill him and say things like 'I want to see him bleed'. This guy sounds very similar to the kids from Columbine. Atleast one of the Columbine kids also wrote about how people around them deserved heinous torture etc. for simple daily things. I remember reading about how one of the Columbine kids wanted to steal from a guy and kill him because he left his car unlocked and he deserved anything that happened to him. The scary thing is that he also wrote about how he changed his demeanor around teachers and parents. He'd be a nice guy, smile and all that while writing about how he wanted to kill them for the lamest, most trivial crap you could imagine.

 

The bastard probably thought he was the victim in all of this. Getting back at that teacher who gave him detention and all the students who gave him funny looks. I have a hard enough time understanding a single murder, let alone a rampage where 90% of the victimes probably didn't even know the guy.

[Sand]

Some people simply snap, and once that happens all rationality is lost then all that is left is rage.

[GreasyDogMeat]

Some people simply snap, and once that happens all rationality is lost then all that is left is rage.

 

I don't think this is a case of just 'snapping' one day. These incidents seem to just build and build over time. The columbine incident was planned and built up over a long time. They even put explosives in cars so that people evacuating would blow up, but thankfully the bombs didn't go off. They basically were trying to set a body count record. While I've read some of what one of the Columbine kids wrote, and he was obviously psychotic, I think it is also scary that he found a like minded friend willing to go that far.

 

Back in the 50s or 60s there was a husband and wife who both believed drinking blood would prolong their lives. I just can't fathom how these two hooked up. Was it just one of them who was a nutcase who slowly 'converted' the other to a nutcase or did they meet at the local blood drinking club?

 

"Come on honey! It tastes great!"

"Well, if you say so... hmm it does taste good! Lets go kidnap teenagers and suck their blood!"

"That's my girl!"

Edited April 18, 2007 by GreasyDogMeat

[Walsingham]

I also have to wonder about that. We had the Soham murders in the UK a few years back. How does a couple like that get together. Or there was Marc Dutroux. Didn't he have a wife? I mean, most wives have a go if tehir husband's hobby is golf! What are these women thinking? "Oh well, at least he doesn't go on about football all the time"?

[Tale]

I think they're submissive relationships. The woman goes along because she's afraid of losing them or are blind followers.

[Walsingham]

I think they're submissive relationships. The woman goes along because she's afraid of losing them or are blind followers.

 

I don't want to offend anyone who chooses the S&M thing, but I must say I always found dom males to be pretty much ****heads. I therefore agree with your analysis.

[Aram]

What I see as a possible way forward is to change the process of gaining fire-arms.

 

The absence of evidence of pathological behaviour is only relevant if there is a history. Just as I cannot take out a loan without proving myself as a good credit risk, so too should potential gun owners have a probationary period where they can demonstrate their soundness of mind. Much like a driver or a pilot has to sit an exam and prove competence.

I believe they said there is no waitning period in Georgia. Pass the background check and you take the gun home right then and there.

 

States with a "waiting period" are in the minority, and personally I think it's a stupid measure. If a guy wants to commit a crime like this, he can wait two days to do it. This kid, if I recall, had his pistol for over a week before he did this.

[Tale]

I think they're submissive relationships. The woman goes along because she's afraid of losing them or are blind followers.

 

I don't want to offend anyone who chooses the S&M thing, but I must say I always found dom males to be pretty much ****heads. I therefore agree with your analysis.

I'm not talking about S&M Sub-Dom, I'm talking about the kind of relationships that, in many cases, lead to neverending abuse. I may have used the wrong word to refer to them.

[Walsingham]

What I see as a possible way forward is to change the process of gaining fire-arms.

 

The absence of evidence of pathological behaviour is only relevant if there is a history. Just as I cannot take out a loan without proving myself as a good credit risk, so too should potential gun owners have a probationary period where they can demonstrate their soundness of mind. Much like a driver or a pilot has to sit an exam and prove competence.

I believe they said there is no waitning period in Georgia. Pass the background check and you take the gun home right then and there.

 

States with a "waiting period" are in the minority, and personally I think it's a stupid measure. If a guy wants to commit a crime like this, he can wait two days to do it. This kid, if I recall, had his pistol for over a week before he did this.

 

I hate to say it, but if you want incompetent shootings then no waiting could be a good thing. This guy didn't so much cool down as anneal.

[Blarghagh]

Some people simply snap, and once that happens all rationality is lost then all that is left is rage.

 

I don't think this is a case of just 'snapping' one day. These incidents seem to just build and build over time. The columbine incident was planned and built up over a long time. They even put explosives in cars so that people evacuating would blow up, but thankfully the bombs didn't go off. They basically were trying to set a body count record. While I've read some of what one of the Columbine kids wrote, and he was obviously psychotic, I think it is also scary that he found a like minded friend willing to go that far.

 

Back in the 50s or 60s there was a husband and wife who both believed drinking blood would prolong their lives. I just can't fathom how these two hooked up. Was it just one of them who was a nutcase who slowly 'converted' the other to a nutcase or did they meet at the local blood drinking club?

 

"Come on honey! It tastes great!"

"Well, if you say so... hmm it does taste good! Lets go kidnap teenagers and suck their blood!"

"That's my girl!"

 

There were a couple of guys in germany a while ago. One of them wanted obsessively to eat someone, the other wanted obsessively to be eaten. How the heck do people like this get together? It doesn't make any sense.

[Tale]

Some people simply snap, and once that happens all rationality is lost then all that is left is rage.

 

I don't think this is a case of just 'snapping' one day. These incidents seem to just build and build over time. The columbine incident was planned and built up over a long time. They even put explosives in cars so that people evacuating would blow up, but thankfully the bombs didn't go off. They basically were trying to set a body count record. While I've read some of what one of the Columbine kids wrote, and he was obviously psychotic, I think it is also scary that he found a like minded friend willing to go that far.

 

Back in the 50s or 60s there was a husband and wife who both believed drinking blood would prolong their lives. I just can't fathom how these two hooked up. Was it just one of them who was a nutcase who slowly 'converted' the other to a nutcase or did they meet at the local blood drinking club?

 

"Come on honey! It tastes great!"

"Well, if you say so... hmm it does taste good! Lets go kidnap teenagers and suck their blood!"

"That's my girl!"

 

There were a couple of guys in germany a while ago. One of them wanted obsessively to eat someone, the other wanted obsessively to be eaten. How the heck do people like this get together? It doesn't make any sense.

That one was over the internet. A message board posting.

[Blarghagh]

Really? There are communities for that kind of stuff?

 

The internet is more screwed up than I though.

[theslug]

Really? There are communities for that kind of stuff?

 

The internet is more screwed up than I though.

You obviously haven't seen the pain olympics then. Man puts genetalia on cutting board, then uses hatchet to dismember himself. Or any of the other shock sites.

[Tale]

Really? There are communities for that kind of stuff?

 

The internet is more screwed up than I though.

You should hear about Japanese find-a-suicide partner websites.

[Blarghagh]

You see, I thought Tubgirl and Goatse were pretty much the crop of the crap.

[metadigital]

According to a friend of mine who runs a young persons institute here in the UK you'd be amazed how many people will come to you if you make it clear there is nothing wrong with doing so, and that you care. Of course there may be instances where you need to oblige the person to get help, but that's what the courts are for. In this case when he started stalking people, setting fire to stuff, and phoning in bomb threats.

I agree: people instinctively are aware that their mental trauma is a bad thing (typically feeling awful is a big neon sign); they therefore are quite pleased to find someone who is willing to help them try to get better.

 

That's what makes tragedies like this all the more appalling: they are quite preventable, given enough resources, willpower and aptitude.

I think they're submissive relationships. The woman goes along because she's afraid of losing them or are blind followers.

 

I don't want to offend anyone who chooses the S&M thing, but I must say I always found dom males to be pretty much ****heads. I therefore agree with your analysis.

I'm not talking about S&M Sub-Dom, I'm talking about the kind of relationships that, in many cases, lead to neverending abuse. I may have used the wrong word to refer to them.

I think you are correct: it's a co-dependency relationship with one person each taking either the dominant or the submissive roles.

 

The fetish special use of the term is exactly that: a special use.

[Gfted1]

I agree: people instinctively are aware that their mental trauma is a bad thing (typically feeling awful is a big neon sign); they therefore are quite pleased to find someone who is willing to help them try to get better.

 

That's what makes tragedies like this all the more appalling: they are quite preventable, given enough resources, willpower and aptitude.

 

 

Those measures already exist. Facilities are manned 24/7/365. You can lead a horse to water.....

[metadigital]

They could do with some more resources. Part of the resistance to using the facilities is the perceived ineffectiveness of them ...

[taks]

my school has apparently stepped up its security as a result of this, and extended counseling hours for those in need. 2000 miles away yet still they worry. i suppose it's not a bad thing, however. my boss is a VT alum and he didn't seem too shaken up, though i did hear him mention it yesterday with a little shock/concern in his voice. my thesis co-advisor is an engineering professor at VT, and, fortunately, he does not appear to be one of those directly affected. i intend to find out from my current advisor if my former advisor was directly affected in any way (they're still in contact as they co-author some books together).

 

has anyone heard if the guns were obtained legally or not?

 

taks

[metadigital]

They interviewed the guy who sold Cho the pistol. He seemed pretty solid; he was quite upset, and said that he wouldn't sell a gun to anyone if they didn't seem okay, even to the point of refusing anyone who had booze on their breath, for example.

 

I believe West Virginia has some of the tightest gun laws, too.

 

Update: I just saw that the guy made videos and sent them to NBC!

[Gorgon]

If by tightest gun laws you mean quite lax gun laws then, yes.

 

Incidentially I agree that waiting periods don't really do much.

Edited April 18, 2007 by Gorgon