Behind the scenes betrayal and OE games

[Tasaio]

Greetings,

 

First of all, I want to say how impressed I am by OE so far -- talentwise and dedicationwise.

 

However, there was one thing I'd like to see in NWN2 I don't see mentioned. Allow me to explain...

(NWN2/ TSL spoilers)

 

I thought that the pacing of KOTOR2's plot was the best I've ever seen in a game. One thing I love is having multiple plot threads at once. In TSL, we

had Kreia asking Hanharr to kill Mira

, for instance. The motives for this were a mystery at the time. These simple cutscenes can add layers of complexity and suspense to a storyline.

Who was Mira, and why did Kreia, af all people, want her dead?

 

 

I wish NWN2 had stuff like this. Seeing the Evil Villain

(Garius)

yell at his incompetent minions doesn't add anything. They should have shown cutscenes of

Ammon Jerro speaking with Garius, Koroboros, and Baalbisan behind our back. Now that would have mad his loyalties more interesting.

 

 

We kind of had this, with

Bishop asking about the construct, but we already knew he was bad.

 

 

The most interesting cutscenes were:

 

 

- The Githyanki warlock addressing Zeeaire

- Ammon Jerro killing Dalren (his intro)

- Sydney Natale making that clone of Qara

 

 

 

But OE dropped the

Gith

thread in Act 2, which, for me, made the game that much less interesting. IMO, they should have kept numerous factions -- not just the KoS -- opposing the player.

 

In future OCs, I would love to see more multiple plot threads going on at onc. Thoughts?

[Meshugger]

To Obsidian's defense, their productionvalues haven't exactly been excellent in their first two games. First there was the tight timeschedule for for KotOR 2, having them drop a lot of content in the last minute, then there was sudden change in management during development NWN 2, leaving Sawyer to remove alot of content again to meet their deadline. Hopefully they have learned something from this.

[Calax]

no offence but could we get the topic a little more on target? I came in here thinking that this was a thread by a disgruntled employee only to find that it was actually a poster with a well thought out post (which can be a rare thing now a days)

[Azarkon]

Oh yes, of course. Intrigue and factional conflict have always been my favorite aspects in CRPGs. The longer it keeps me guessing, the better, really, as it delays the inevitable moment when the plot basically becomes save-the-world.

[Atreides]

no offence but could we get the topic a little more on target? I came in here thinking that this was a thread by a disgruntled employee only to find that it was actually a poster with a well thought out post (which can be a rare thing now a days)

Lol, so did I.

[Diamond]

I wish NWN2 had stuff like this. Seeing the Evil Villain

(Garius)

yell at his incompetent minions doesn't add anything. They should have shown cutscenes of

Ammon Jerro speaking with Garius, Koroboros, and Baalbisan behind our back. Now that would have mad his loyalties more interesting.

I disagree.

It does not suit Jerro's character too well. Even if you have very very low influence with him, he will not join Garius in the end because of his determination. While he's not too much open about his past, he would not be waffling which side he's on. So I think making something "more interesting" for the sake of it is not a good idea. Besides the game is already saturated with "betrayal"-type sub-plots. Enough is enough.

 

[Rhomal]

To Obsidian's defense, their productionvalues haven't exactly been excellent in their first two games. First there was the tight timeschedule for for KotOR 2, having them drop a lot of content in the last minute, then there was sudden change in management during development NWN 2, leaving Sawyer to remove alot of content again to meet their deadline. Hopefully they have learned something from this.

 

I am not into SW hence never bought either of those games. So cant comment on that level. However NWN2...

 

I don't think your comment "leaving Sawyer to remove alot of content again to meet their deadline" is accurate of the situation. He took over from when Ferretand Obsidian parted ways, however I do not recall any of JE's comments saying anything along the lines you state. He did say he was re-prioritizing and trying to made heads/tail of where Ferret left off, but it was more a clean loose ends up rather then a 'OMG we needs to cut a. b. and c. or we'll never ship'. PERHAPS that did happen behind the scenes, however from JE's post that was not the impression I was left with.

 

And for what its worth, before we go throwing Ferret under the bus even more then others have already in other threads, if it was not for Ferret and one of the scripters (the name eludes me right now) the crafting system would have been on the chopping block. Ferret fought VERY hard for it and due to a lot of after hrs work he and one of his scripters saved that aspect of the OC. FYI

[Dark_Raven]

To Obsidian's defense, their productionvalues haven't exactly been excellent in their first two games. First there was the tight timeschedule for for KotOR 2, having them drop a lot of content in the last minute, then there was sudden change in management during development NWN 2, leaving Sawyer to remove alot of content again to meet their deadline. Hopefully they have learned something from this.

Which is why the deadline should have been extended. Publishers are always rushing developers to get it done and get it done now.

[Llyranor]

Yeah, you tell them, Gabs!!!

[Spider]

I don't think your comment "leaving Sawyer to remove alot of content again to meet their deadline" is accurate of the situation. He took over from when Ferretand Obsidian parted ways, however I do not recall any of JE's comments saying anything along the lines you state. He did say he was re-prioritizing and trying to made heads/tail of where Ferret left off, but it was more a clean loose ends up rather then a 'OMG we needs to cut a. b. and c. or we'll never ship'. PERHAPS that did happen behind the scenes, however from JE's post that was not the impression I was left with.

 

I've heard differently. I've heard a lot of content was cut for NWN2 around the time when Ferret left the project. About half is what I've heard, although that could be a tad hyperbolic. And Obsidian devs have repeatedly told us about stuff that did get cut, so there were definitely some scissors involved (like basically all of Casavirs stuff).

 

 

Which is why the deadline should have been extended. Publishers are always rushing developers to get it done and get it done now.

 

Not always. Stalker certainly was allowed to take it's time. As for NWN2, Atari was (is?) in dire financial straits. If they would have allowed Obsidian another 6 months to complete the game, we may not have had a game to begin with.

[Meshugger]

To Obsidian's defense, their productionvalues haven't exactly been excellent in their first two games. First there was the tight timeschedule for for KotOR 2, having them drop a lot of content in the last minute, then there was sudden change in management during development NWN 2, leaving Sawyer to remove alot of content again to meet their deadline. Hopefully they have learned something from this.

 

I am not into SW hence never bought either of those games. So cant comment on that level. However NWN2...

 

I don't think your comment "leaving Sawyer to remove alot of content again to meet their deadline" is accurate of the situation. He took over from when Ferretand Obsidian parted ways, however I do not recall any of JE's comments saying anything along the lines you state. He did say he was re-prioritizing and trying to made heads/tail of where Ferret left off, but it was more a clean loose ends up rather then a 'OMG we needs to cut a. b. and c. or we'll never ship'. PERHAPS that did happen behind the scenes, however from JE's post that was not the impression I was left with.

 

And for what its worth, before we go throwing Ferret under the bus even more then others have already in other threads, if it was not for Ferret and one of the scripters (the name eludes me right now) the crafting system would have been on the chopping block. Ferret fought VERY hard for it and due to a lot of after hrs work he and one of his scripters saved that aspect of the OC. FYI

 

Well, no one knows exactly what happened behind the scenes at Obsidian, but i do recall on how Sawyer being dissapointed on having to cut large areas of the game (non-content, just extra places for powerleveling) and removing Casavir's sidequest completely.

[Tasaio]

I wish NWN2 had stuff like this. Seeing the Evil Villain

(Garius)

yell at his incompetent minions doesn't add anything. They should have shown cutscenes of

Ammon Jerro speaking with Garius, Koroboros, and Baalbisan behind our back. Now that would have mad his loyalties more interesting.

I disagree.

It does not suit Jerro's character too well. Even if you have very very low influence with him, he will not join Garius in the end because of his determination. While he's not too much open about his past, he would not be waffling which side he's on. So I think making something "more interesting" for the sake of it is not a good idea. Besides the game is already saturated with "betrayal"-type sub-plots. Enough is enough.

 

 

 

 

When you say the OC is saturated with "betrayal"-type subplots, are you referring to non-party characters like Lorne and Torio?

 

The problem is that we know these two are bad from the get-go. There are few plot characters in the campaign who are revealed as surprise traitors.

 

I think you can make the OC more interesting without going against characters' personalities. In fact, just the opposite -- they need to expand some characters.

 

For instance, I really liked the character of Sydney Natale. There should have been a rivalry going on between her and Garius. Later in the game, you teleport to her Hosttower and kill her there...not in the middle of the woods.

 

Also, there could be a cutscene of Torio or Lorne talking to Sydney, revealing them to be her spies in Garius' inner circle.

 

WRT companions: Aside from the final battle, and Bishop, there are no signs of betrayal from any of the them. That's one reason Qara's betrayal took me by surprise, but it was more irritating than not. It was an interesting idea, but bad execution.

 

 

Edited April 4, 2007 by Tasaio

[Rhomal]

I don't think your comment "leaving Sawyer to remove alot of content again to meet their deadline" is accurate of the situation. He took over from when Ferretand Obsidian parted ways, however I do not recall any of JE's comments saying anything along the lines you state. He did say he was re-prioritizing and trying to made heads/tail of where Ferret left off, but it was more a clean loose ends up rather then a 'OMG we needs to cut a. b. and c. or we'll never ship'. PERHAPS that did happen behind the scenes, however from JE's post that was not the impression I was left with.

 

I've heard differently. I've heard a lot of content was cut for NWN2 around the time when Ferret left the project. About half is what I've heard, although that could be a tad hyperbolic. And Obsidian devs have repeatedly told us about stuff that did get cut, so there were definitely some scissors involved (like basically all of Casavirs stuff).

 

 

Which is why the deadline should have been extended. Publishers are always rushing developers to get it done and get it done now.

 

Not always. Stalker certainly was allowed to take it's time. As for NWN2, Atari was (is?) in dire financial straits. If they would have allowed Obsidian another 6 months to complete the game, we may not have had a game to begin with.

 

HALF?! If half the content got axed then yes that pretty significant. But one NPC sidequest, a few monster models and some DM client functions <> "half" of all the nwn2 content they did ship.... IMO at least.

 

I am *NOT* saying nothing got cut, indeed in any proof of concept to final version things in s/w get cut in EVERY project. But I think you are making this out to be a larger deal then it is.

 

My 2 coppers

[Pop]

I believe there was supposed to be a trip to Luskan included in NWN2. I could be wrong, though. Like, instead of meeting Sydney Natale in Luskan territory, you meet her in the city.

 

There was also stuff like a "home base" in Neverwinter, next to the bar. There was a barbarian dude whose model was featured in the NWN2 artbook, but I never saw him in the game. Stuff like that. I'd wager that there are hours of content missing from NWN2.

[Tasaio]

I believe there was supposed to be a trip to Luskan included in NWN2. I could be wrong, though. Like, instead of meeting Sydney Natale in Luskan territory, you meet her in the city.

 

There was also stuff like a "home base" in Neverwinter, next to the bar. There was a barbarian dude whose model was featured in the NWN2 artbook, but I never saw him in the game. Stuff like that. I'd wager that there are hours of content missing from NWN2.

 

On the Bioboards, I suggested that they make a TOTSC-style expansion -- restore the cut content and add more quests to the current OC, before continuing with the sequel.

[Oerwinde]

I believe there was supposed to be a trip to Luskan included in NWN2. I could be wrong, though. Like, instead of meeting Sydney Natale in Luskan territory, you meet her in the city.

 

There was also stuff like a "home base" in Neverwinter, next to the bar. There was a barbarian dude whose model was featured in the NWN2 artbook, but I never saw him in the game. Stuff like that. I'd wager that there are hours of content missing from NWN2.

 

On the Bioboards, I suggested that they make a TOTSC-style expansion -- restore the cut content and add more quests to the current OC, before continuing with the sequel.

 

I think a lot of people would love more content added to the OC. I'm one of them. I doubt they'd devote much if any resources to that though. It would be cool if they started adding small bits of content to the OC with patches though. Nothing huge, like maybe a quest or two per patch. Or maybe an OC expansion premium module. That would be super cool.

[Pop]

I believe there was supposed to be a trip to Luskan included in NWN2. I could be wrong, though. Like, instead of meeting Sydney Natale in Luskan territory, you meet her in the city.

 

There was also stuff like a "home base" in Neverwinter, next to the bar. There was a barbarian dude whose model was featured in the NWN2 artbook, but I never saw him in the game. Stuff like that. I'd wager that there are hours of content missing from NWN2.

 

On the Bioboards, I suggested that they make a TOTSC-style expansion -- restore the cut content and add more quests to the current OC, before continuing with the sequel.

 

I think a lot of people would love more content added to the OC. I'm one of them. I doubt they'd devote much if any resources to that though. It would be cool if they started adding small bits of content to the OC with patches though. Nothing huge, like maybe a quest or two per patch. Or maybe an OC expansion premium module. That would be super cool.

I think it'd be a good idea, but Obsidian would get a lot of stink for it from the same people who think the whole idea of patches/extra content is offensive. For example, when the Godfather game came out on 360/Wii/PS3 the people who bought Xbox/PS2/PC versions were pissed off, because the next-gen console versions contained loads of extra features the old versions didn't. The complaint was, why release an inferior version of your product when you could just as easily release a superior one later? Why release a game that needs a patch?

[metadigital]

Just because there are different opinions, doesn't automatically mean all opinions are of equal worth.