An user review of some of Obsidian's products

[ouiouiwewe]

I thought I should vent off a little steam and contribute a little to the voices that speak negatively of NWN2 and KOTOR2 because Obisidian Entertainment apparently has the fortune of developing the sequels of some of the best games in history but not the ability to make the as satisfying as the originals.

 

KOTOR 2:

 

I don't really need to say much about this game because there's already a whole collection of threads in the KOTOR2 forum regarding, what many consider as, KOTOR2's terrible quality. I played through the game once and realized how much more could've been done with it. The UI's ok - almost the same as KOTOR1's. The plot's just terrible and incomplete. Dungeons and challenges are uncreative and mostly hack and slash. Graphics are either taken from KOTOR1 or of very similar design because I hardly notice any difference.

 

NWN 2:

 

I already got a bad feeling when I heard that Obsidian has the reins on NWN2 because KOTOR2 didn't feel too well. Surprisingly, NWN2 actually turns out to be a WORSE game than KOTOR2. The first thing that catches my eye (and ear) is that the game reuses most if not all of NWN1's sounds, musics, and voices. How very original. It might actually be even better if Obsidian stole NWN1's UI as well because the one they designed's just terrible. The inventory system is one of the worst I've ever seen because it's difficult to find what you need and there are no mechanisms that allow item sorting (unlike Morrowind/Oblivion/others). NWN1 got around that by using bigger and better graphics. Dragging things into quick bar is also very annoying. Unlike NWN1, you can't right click a slow and select from a tree of options. If you want to put knockdown in quick bar, you need to go to feats. If you want a spell in the quick bar, you need to bring up the spell book. Very un-user-friendly.Other than the item interface, the thing that annoys me the most next is the encumbrance issue. Needless to say, it is much more convenient to display the limit that makes a character complain rather than displaying the maximal limit because most people would not want to go beyond that anyway.

 

The way death is handled is just bad and dreadfully violates any of the D&D computer games I've played. This is not Star Wars, we have these spells and scrolls that bring the dead back. If this causes too much inconvenience, there are many more realistic ways to overcome that such as those stones and crystals in NWN1 campaigns. The character influence system is not well-designed either. There's not much to learn about each character and most of the dialogues are not very well written compared to the likes of SoU and HotU. I like the dwarf and perhaps the evil ranger. As for the rest, they are under-developed. There's almost no character development in them. In addition, I thought West Harbour and residents should play a little more role in the game. I don't like how Lorne and Cormick are just kind of dumped to the side and slowly deviate from the main storyline. Judging from the character development for the Harbourmen in the beginning, I was kind of expecting them to play a little more role in the game than just characters from tutorial to be forgotten about. There could've been more things that can be learned about them and their history. The role Lorne played in the game is almost like the game wants him redeemed (if PC's good). If not, a plotline featuring him and his old nemesis would've been interesting to witness.

 

Anyway. I didn't have a very high expectation for NWN2. I merely wanted it as good as NWN1 and perhaps I am asking for too much. My feeling for the game is that it has terrible UI, plot, and character development. Music and sounds are fine because they are mostly stolen from NWN1. Seeing that Obsidian has reused so much materials from previous games, one would've expected superb improvements in graphics but I don't appear to witness that at this point.

 

To sum it up, NWN2 is just another disappointment like KOTOR2. I consider this a strike two for Obsidian in the perspective of many experience PC gamers and I'd personally be alarmed when i see another well-establish game series being taken over by this design studio. My intention of saying this is not primarily to spite the designers of course, but to express the fact that they'd need to be more creative in designing their games and more adept in making better design decisions. The fact that they get good sales for both KOTOR2 and NWN2 is not that they did a great job but that their predecessors (developed by OTHER studios) had pre-built a great customer base for the sequels that Obsidian released.

 

/vent

[Volourn]

"Graphics are either taken from KOTOR1 or of very similar design because I hardly notice any difference."

 

And? How is that bad? That's a GOOD thing. The games are like two years apart.

 

 

"Surprisingly, NWN2 actually turns out to be a WORSE game than KOTOR2."

 

Nah. Much like NWN1 being better than KOTOR1, NWN2 is light years better than KOTOR2. No contest really.

 

 

"that the game reuses most if not all of NWN1's sounds, musics, and voices. How very original."

 

Good. I'm glad. Sequels shouldn't be original. They're sequels because they tend to be sequels to a successful game. No need to reinvent the wheel. In fact, some cases in where Obsidian tried to reinvent the wheel is where they went wrong.

 

 

KOPTOR1 is an ok game. NWN2 is a good game (just like NWN1 OC) that can become much, much better as time goes on.

 

 

Edited February 5, 2007 by Volourn

[Blank]

K2 wasn't that bad when I played it. I remember being just as addicted to it as I was with K1. Although, I concede that K1 was better in the end. I haven't played NWN2, so for all I know you are correct. I have recently played NWN1 OC, though, and I know that it sucked a lot. So Obsidian really must have screwed up if it is that bad.

Edited February 5, 2007 by Blank

[Sand]

I liked K2 more than K1. I like NWN2 OC over NWN1 OC. NWN2 is what NWN1 should have been.

[Jorian Drake]

What's KOPTOR?

[ouiouiwewe]

Actually, try NWN1's HoTU campaign. That one's hot.

[ouiouiwewe]

Come to the think of it. There's a BIG difference in the feel of NWN1 and NWN2. Although there's no influence system in NWN1, you tend to know more about your henchies and where they come from. For example, we'd know about Linu's childhood in Evereska, love life, and journey for Sehanine Moonbow. As for the henchies in NWN2, I don't think we know much about them. Where's Neshka from? Yes, we know about the Church of Helm, but what else? Same with Qara and others. I think the most developed henchman is Khelgar, but that's it (probably because the dev's didn't have the time to do others). As for NPC's that do not join your team, the defs put even less effort into giving them character. Characters such as Aribeth (OC), Aaron Gend (OC), Drogan (SoU), the Seer (HotU), the Reaper (HotU), the Sleeping Man (HotU), and etc have been covered in great depth in their respective campaigns. We don't see anything like that in NWN2 OC. Not your sponser Sir [something], not the NW9 leader Sir Nercelle, not your West Harbour friends and family (Cormick, Lorne, Duncan, etc), and not... well other people.

 

Other than that, the game in general seem to lack a FR touch as there's relatively little mention of other elements of the FR campaign setting other than Waterdeep, Neverwinter, Ruathym, and Luskan. Even for these regions, the dev's seem to have put very little effort in introducing them to the players. If I haven't played NWN1 and didn't read any FR-related books, I wouldn't have known what Neverwinter or Luskan is other than the fact that NW is a goodie city and Luskan's some evil city. I also haven't seen any of those mini-novels that existed in NWN1.

 

These little details all add up to tell how much effort the design team has put into giving the game the right atmosphere.

 

To refrain from being criticized that gamers often have high expectations for sequels, I'd point out that there are shining sequels out there that receive a lot of praises and little criticisms. BG2, Spellforce 2, GTA: San Andreas, Gothic 3, Sims 2, etc, etc, etc. I mean, not everyone of them are huge steps beyond their predecessors (except Gothic 3). Some of them have almost the exact same UI, gameplay, and graphics as before (BG2 and GTA: San Andreas). There's no need for a great deal of renovation provided the developers understand what to retain, what to improve, and what to discard. In Obsidian's case, there's also the matter of whether or not they have the ability to keep up with the quality displayed by the development studios whose work they took over.

 

P.S. I notice that there are lots of talk about Lucas Art or Bioware being the culprit of the poor quality of KOTOR2 due to the insufficent amount of development time they assigned Obsidian, but aren't most game development teams working under similar constrains?

[Blank]

Yeah, take a look at Traveller's Tales. They put up with Lego and Lucas Arts at the same time and come out with hits.

[alanschu]

What's KOPTOR?

 

 

A typo

[Purgatorio]

I thought I should vent off a little steam and contribute a little to the voices that speak negatively of NWN2 and KOTOR2 because Obisidian Entertainment apparently has the fortune of developing the sequels of some of the best games in history but not the ability to make the as satisfying as the originals.

 

KOTOR 2:

 

I don't really need to say much about this game because there's already a whole collection of threads in the KOTOR2 forum regarding, what many consider as, KOTOR2's terrible quality. I played through the game once and realized how much more could've been done with it. The UI's ok - almost the same as KOTOR1's. The plot's just terrible and incomplete. Dungeons and challenges are uncreative and mostly hack and slash. Graphics are either taken from KOTOR1 or of very similar design because I hardly notice any difference.

 

To sum it up, NWN2 is just another disappointment like KOTOR2. I consider this a strike two for Obsidian in the perspective of many experience PC gamers and I'd personally be alarmed when i see another well-establish game series being taken over by this design studio. My intention of saying this is not primarily to spite the designers of course, but to express the fact that they'd need to be more creative in designing their games and more adept in making better design decisions. The fact that they get good sales for both KOTOR2 and NWN2 is not that they did a great job but that their predecessors (developed by OTHER studios) had pre-built a great customer base for the sequels that Obsidian released.

 

/vent

 

I disagree, some of the greatest works of art known to man are incomplete. Schubert's Unfinished Symphony, Bach's The Art of Fugue. You judge a work on what is not there, and what was beyond the control of the maker. What are the "what many consider as, KOTOR2's terrible quality" that you speak of? I am yet to see any evidence beyond fanboys whinging about the cut content. (Which is not the fault of Obsidian)

 

Kotor 2 is more visually polished than the first. I recently bought a new computer, it has a silver edged LCD screen, the menu screens look so beautiful set against my monitors border that I was letting off fanboyish *squees* all over again, and that was just the menu. So pretty I have it for Xbox as well. I am getting NWN2 soon.

I love Obsidian and all who dwell there. Can I get my life sized poster of Kriea nekid now?

[ouiouiwewe]

What I comment is subjective and based on my own taste. I am sure some people can be easily satisfied with a good hack and slash system without a good plot.

 

But IMO (and repeating the opinions of many others), KOTOR2 suffers a greal deal in its plot. Atris, Nihilus, Sion, GOTO, and the Jedi Masters are all under-developed. Kriea herself is also obviously shown as a viper from the start before she saps the force out of the Jedi Masters and betrays the PC. However, I do like her a lot and she's among the few things I enjoyed about KOTOR2.

 

Whatever cut content there is does not concern me because it is not in the game for my intents and purposes. When a consumer buys a game, he expects to be able to enjoy the game to its full potential without having to dig up its files for massive chunks of unfinished materials.

 

As for NWN2, you should take a look at the reviews in Amazon.com. At least half of them are quite negative. I am not saying that Obsidian can't please us with big expansion that provides a big fix to the UI and a very nice campaign, but the game at this state is a bit lacking.

Edited February 6, 2007 by ouiouiwewe

[Hassat Hunter]

If you think BG2 is graphicalwise the same as BG I suggest you retry them both again (and no TuTu!)

[kirottu]

Bah!

 

I never played Kotor 1 because NWN was so much in the utter crap zone that I have stayed clear of Bioware products since then. Kotor 2 was a solid game that suffered greatly because of it

[Sand]

Actually, try NWN1's HoTU campaign. That one's hot.

 

Been there, done that. It was okay but NWN2 OC was better. HotU was way too over powered for my tastes and the implementation of epic levels were a very bad idea.

[Sand]

As for NWN2, you should take a look at the reviews in Amazon.com. At least half of them are quite negative. I am not saying that Obsidian can't please us with big expansion that provides a big fix to the UI and a very nice campaign, but the game at this state is a bit lacking.

 

Why should I care about what people say at Amazon? I bought the game. I have played the game. I like the game. I like the UI. I like the campaign. I like artwork and gr4aphics. I like the music. I like the gameplay. Nothing you can say will change my opinion on NWN2.

[Xard]

KOTOR 2:

 

I don't really need to say much about this game because there's already a whole collection of threads in the KOTOR2 forum regarding, what many consider as, KOTOR2's terrible quality. I played through the game once and realized how much more could've been done with it. The UI's ok - almost the same as KOTOR1's. The plot's just terrible and incomplete. Dungeons and challenges are uncreative and mostly hack and slash. Graphics are either taken from KOTOR1 or of very similar design because I hardly notice any difference.

 

Before I post anything about NWN2, let's talk about Kotor 2. I like Kotor1 more than 2, it's one of my favorite games. However, that is just ridiculous.

 

"what many consider as, Kotor2's terrible quality".

 

Not being as good as first one doesn't mean "terrible quality".

 

The UI is IMPROVED version of k1's one. Each time when playing K2 it's hard for me to get used to old K1's UI which is clumsier and worse. K1's UI is good, I never had anything to whine about it until K2 came out and showed me how it was hugely improved with many little tweaks.

 

UI is much better than K1's one, which was good to begin with.

 

"The plot's just terrible and incomplete"

 

Definetly incomplete, whole ending was cut, whole planet was cut, huge amount all other kinds of stuff was cut.

 

But please tell me how K1's plot was any better? It was copied from movies, had few little tweaks and changes and voila -there you have plot of K1. Whole "Revan revelation" was sooo awesome plot twist...

 

My problem with K2's plot is that it goes against SW canon, but if I manage to ignore that it's much better. It is original, villains are better (Malak the Evil Maniac was very, very deep antagonist), especially Kreia which is best written character in Kotors.

 

Before I argue anything I need to know why K2's plot sucked.

 

"Dungeons and challenges" doesn't differ one bit from K1 but the're easier. (Game being too easy is main reason why k1 is better IMO) And both games are mostly hack n slash, fun and entertaining but still hack and slash.

 

Graphic thing is most silly since both games use same engine.

[Shadowstrider]

Come to the think of it. There's a BIG difference in the feel of NWN1 and NWN2. Although there's no influence system in NWN1, you tend to know more about your henchies and where they come from. For example, we'd know about Linu's childhood in Evereska, love life, and journey for Sehanine Moonbow. As for the henchies in NWN2, I don't think we know much about them. Where's Neshka from? Yes, we know about the Church of Helm, but what else? Same with Qara and others. I think the most developed henchman is Khelgar, but that's it (probably because the dev's didn't have the time to do others). As for NPC's that do not join your team, the defs put even less effort into giving them character. Characters such as Aribeth (OC), Aaron Gend (OC), Drogan (SoU), the Seer (HotU), the Reaper (HotU), the Sleeping Man (HotU), and etc have been covered in great depth in their respective campaigns. We don't see anything like that in NWN2 OC. Not your sponser Sir [something], not the NW9 leader Sir Nercelle, not your West Harbour friends and family (Cormick, Lorne, Duncan, etc), and not... well other people.

 

Other than that, the game in general seem to lack a FR touch as there's relatively little mention of other elements of the FR campaign setting other than Waterdeep, Neverwinter, Ruathym, and Luskan. Even for these regions, the dev's seem to have put very little effort in introducing them to the players. If I haven't played NWN1 and didn't read any FR-related books, I wouldn't have known what Neverwinter or Luskan is other than the fact that NW is a goodie city and Luskan's some evil city. I also haven't seen any of those mini-novels that existed in NWN1.

 

These little details all add up to tell how much effort the design team has put into giving the game the right atmosphere.

 

To refrain from being criticized that gamers often have high expectations for sequels, I'd point out that there are shining sequels out there that receive a lot of praises and little criticisms. BG2, Spellforce 2, GTA: San Andreas, Gothic 3, Sims 2, etc, etc, etc. I mean, not everyone of them are huge steps beyond their predecessors (except Gothic 3). Some of them have almost the exact same UI, gameplay, and graphics as before (BG2 and GTA: San Andreas). There's no need for a great deal of renovation provided the developers understand what to retain, what to improve, and what to discard. In Obsidian's case, there's also the matter of whether or not they have the ability to keep up with the quality displayed by the development studios whose work they took over.

 

P.S. I notice that there are lots of talk about Lucas Art or Bioware being the culprit of the poor quality of KOTOR2 due to the insufficent amount of development time they assigned Obsidian, but aren't most game development teams working under similar constrains?

 

Pity reply.

[Volourn]

"especially Kreia which is best written character in Kotors."

 

No.

[Walsingham]

I do have problems with NWN2, but the ones you mention totally boggled me. The controls are very good, in my opinion. The dialling system you appear to have liked in NWN1 confused anyone who didn't know already where to go, whereas dragging things from your spellbook or character sheet seems entirely intuitive.

 

Character background struck me as being light years ahead of NWN1. Yes, they go into less detail in some, but am I the only person who was bored to tears with Aribeth's supposed backstory? One of the few things I enjoyed about completing the OC was having the chance to shut her whining face once and for all. NWN2 on the other hand actually has engaging characters. Peripheral NPCs are just that, peripheral. I care about my chracter party, and maybe the main opponent. I don't want reams of information about Lord Nasher's childhood hobbies; I want dynamism from my compadres. Which you get in spades in NWN2.

 

The one thing I might agree with is the inconsistency with how death is handled. I can't revive people I like even theugh I have spells for doing precisely that, and when I have an NPC I despise polluting my team I have as much chance of shifting them as I do of shifting some sort of horribly disfiguring facial wart. Which is how I generally feel about some of them.

 

By and large, though, I'd recommend NWN2 to anyone, as being of comparable strength in surprises and storyline to BG.

[Xard]

"especially Kreia which is best written character in Kotors."

 

No.

 

Which one then? Hk-47 or Jolee are good candidates too.

[Shadowstrider]

Jolee Bindo is absolutely, without question, the best character in the KotOR series... in my opinion.

[Weiser_Cain]

Give me juhani any day

[Pidesco]

You just want to get it on with the cat woman.

[Sand]

I like Kreia and Jolee. Both are well written characters, though for overall likability I have to go with the Handmaiden.

[Dark_Raven]

"especially Kreia which is best written character in Kotors."

 

No.

That would be HK-47.