The Escapist: The Rise and Fall of Troika

[Volourn]

"I really was thinking more about the talent involved, the dedication and concentration required to make a successful product, the business side is very much like any other in alot of respects.

 

The hard part of the games industry is keeping up with an ever evolving always progressing, and always changing hardware/software enviroment.

 

There is alot to learn and just as you think you crack one thing a new thing exists..."

 

This pretty much describes any actual career - as opposed to a job. Even many jobs fit this bill. This isn't anything unique to game development.

 

 

"Arcanum, ToEE & Bloodlines were all excellent Games that sold quite well."

 

Bull. You ahve no facts to back this up. If this wa strue, publ;ishers wouldn't have run away from them. Afterall, if Night is to be believed, publishers are all about sales and profit.. then, you come along and proclaim thjat Troika games did sell well. Yet, after BL (their third game), no publisher wanted to touch them with a 10' pole.

 

 

"Bioware were in a good position, had atari turned them away they would have been in a whole other position... But that was very unlikely due to the success bioware had, had... They're indeed one of the success stories of the games industry."

 

Bioware earned that position through hard work dedication, and smart business and game making sense. It's not like they appeared out of thin air and became the company theya r eover the night. Heck, BIO was created by THREE DOCTORS who had no previous experience in game devlopment yet they managed to do something that veterans of the undustry could not do. *shrug*

 

 

"Bioware acted in a sensible manner they had a certain percentage of a product,"

 

Nope. Interplay had sole rights to the NWN/D&D license which later got passed to Atari. BIO *never* had the rights to it. They had no more right to it then 99% of developers do. But, they atcually had the ballz to voice the fact they were being screwed by Interplay (though Interplay saw it differently, of course). And, guess what? BIO is still going strong while Interplay continues to doggy paddle just trying to stay alive.

 

 

 

Back to Troika: Troika's games fialed because they had fundamentla flaws in the DESIGN that for various reasons turned off many gamers. Not because those gamers are stupid. It was a failing on Troika's part; not the potential customers. Nor wa sit the publishers' fault. The idea that the 3 publishers purposely sabatoged Troika's gam,es is silly espicially since all three companies - even Atari despite the fact itself is not in the best position currently - have all published successful games in every way. *shrug*

 

Bottom line is that Troika was not an elite game, developer let alone a good one. I say that even as I PERSONALLY enjoyed 2 out of 3 of their games.

 

Go figure.

Edited December 30, 2006 by Volourn

[Mortis Nai]

(From the wiki)

 

VTM: Bloodlines:

 

Marketing and sales performance

 

 

Bloodlines sales underperformed in the first few weeks, selling 72,000 units ($3.4 million) [5] despite generally favorable reviews.[6]

 

A chief factor in Bloodlines' failure to sell is that publisher Activision did only a small amount of marketing/publicity compared to other titles with comparative budgets.[citation needed] Another factor that may have affected the sales performance of Bloodlines could be the release of Valve's blockbuster first-person shooter Half-Life 2 at the same time, going against earlier plans about postponing the release of Bloodlines until Spring 2005 so that it would not compete against Half-Life 2 during Christmas.[7]

 

Additionally Bloodlines, like Troika's previous games, suffered a high level of criticism for bugs still present at the time of release. This was escalated by the delay of a patch to address these problems.

 

Many, like former Troika artist Michael McCarthy, believe that Troika would have survived Bloodlines low sales had they sold the game directly to customers without having to go through a publisher such as Activision:[8]

 

Edited December 30, 2006 by Mortis Nai

[Volourn]

"Arcanum 234K units and generate sales of $8.8 million

 

The Temple of Elemental Evil sold 128K units $5.2 million

 

Bloodlines sold a paltry 72K units $3.4 million."

 

LOL People claim the fact that Jade Empire sold a 'measily' 600k+ copies in 6 months (I wouldn't be surprised if it's closer to 1 million now, and it's even gettinga new release on PC and likely a sequel if MS is to be believed) was undisputable proof that it was an unmigated failure of absolute epic proportions... then, you come along to claim that these three games including BL's 72k and TOEE's 128k using the D&D license were success stories sales wise? LMAO

 

That's right. Troika's three SUCCESSES sell less than COMBINED than BIO's one "FAILURE"

 

LMAOATWTKKUYADYTATWA

 

If anything, this shows that Troika's repuation took a nosedive game after game. This, to me, shows, that people gave Troika a chance with Arcanum, and less and less people decided to with the subsequent agmes.

 

That is, if your numbers are evena ccurate.

 

R00fles!

Edited December 30, 2006 by Volourn

[Mortis Nai]

*Sighs*

 

And its that exact attitudes as to why there are so few small time independent companies these days.

[Gromnir]

atari had sales numbers for toee in the 300k range... which made it a slight better seller than the nwn expansions.

 

regardless, your numbers show that all troika games were pretty pathetic sellers... so am not sure what point is being made with the wiki stuff.

 

and vol is again comparing xbox to pc... not same. don't go off on your je defense again.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Diogo Ribeiro]

LMAOATWTKKUYADYTATWA

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Is that the Kanadian version of ROFLWTFBBQ?

[Mortis Nai]

I'm going to use the Chewbaka defense.

[Gromnir]

LMAOATWTKKUYADYTATWA

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Is that the Kanadian version of ROFLWTFBBQ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

is best not to ask too many questions 'bout what vol is thinking.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Volourn]

"and vol is again comparing xbox to pc... not same. don't go off on your je defense again."

 

The facts defend JE just fine. The fact that it is even coming to PC shows that JE was successfule nough to warrant a rerelease. And, MS 9though BIO denies it) has already announced a sequel. *shrug*

[Mortis Nai]

So basically the one thing we can all agree on is that Vol is insane and somewhat scary?

 

See, were all humans after all (Except for Vol of course, who is Kanadian ^_^ )

Edited December 30, 2006 by Mortis Nai

[Gromnir]

So basically the one thing we can all agree on is that Vol is insane and somewhat scary?

 

See, were all humans after all (Except for Vol of course, who is Kanadian  ^_^ )

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

we gots common ground.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Volourn]

Grom's sig sums it all up.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

This pretty much describes any actual career - as opposed to a job. Even many jobs fit this bill. This isn't anything unique to game development.

 

Dunno about that, after all the screwdriver is still the same screwdriver after the jobs begun and done, heh... Heck, When you work with cutting edge tech it changes, constantly, which means your constantly going over new and old ground keeping everything ticking, an engine update can make a huge difference to the state of a product before and after.

 

This isn't inluding any new techniques that could have arisin... I'm sure there are similar things in other jobs, but I can't think what they'd be..

 

Bioware earned that position through hard work dedication, and smart business and game making sense. It's not like they appeared out of thin air and became the company theya r eover the night. Heck, BIO was created by THREE DOCTORS who had no previous experience in game devlopment yet they managed to do something that veterans of the undustry could not do. *shrug*

 

obviously they have very good business sense.

 

Nope. Interplay had sole rights to the NWN/D&D license which later got passed to Atari. BIO *never* had the rights to it. They had no more right to it then 99% of developers do. But, they atcually had the ballz to voice the fact they were being screwed by Interplay (though Interplay saw it differently, of course). And, guess what? BIO is still going strong while Interplay continues to doggy paddle just trying to stay alive.

 

Bio will have walked away from Interplay with atleast a working prototype, this has to have helped them in securing a future deal at atari, heck any developer could make a D&D game and pitch it to atari. Bioware most likely had one in hand.

[Mortis Nai]

Grom's sig sums it all up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

"I am gonna send you to a deep, dark place and I am gonna have fun doing it." -Eddie Dane ?

 

"

[Gromnir]

so your seeming nuttyness is your way o' sending us all to a deep, dark place... and you enjoys doing so?

 

fair 'nuff.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

btw, (and this ain't directed at vol,) there is many jobs that require constant education to keeps pace with industry... we doubt game developer learning curve is tougher than doctor or lawyer or even accountant learning curve.

Edited December 30, 2006 by Gromnir

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

so your seeming nuttyness is your way o' sending us all to a deep, dark place... and you enjoys doing so?

 

fair 'nuff.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

btw, (and this ain't directed at vol,) there is many jobs that require constant education to keeps pace with industry... we doubt game developer learning curve is tougher than doctor or lawyer or even accountant learning curve.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Doctor or lawyer agreed, but accountant, I'm having flash back to that floor laying again OMG... ARGH KILL ME!

[Shadowstrider]

I don't know of many jobs that are harder...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I can, quite easily.

 

Go install flooring, carpet is particularly strenuous and difficult. It has all the issues that game development has, AND physically intense.

 

Doctor, lawyer, nurse, hell baby sitting is more difficult than game development.

 

Get some perspective, game development isn't that tough.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

ABSOLUTELY CRAZY MAN. Well except for the obvious Doctors, nurses crap, baby sitting tho' LOL, installing flooring LMFAO.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Having worked in flooring, game development and baby sitting, I feel comfortable in saying you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

I've been in crunch since I started working at Bethesda, I've had less than 8 weeks where I worked less than 65-70 hours. I couldn't visit the doctor on account of my broken toe for a month, none-the-less, it's been a cake walk in comparison to my time installing carpet.

 

There is a reason so many people want to get jobs in the game industry, and it isn't because of the chicks, or to impress their parents. It isn't to prove how they can overcome insurmountable, fatigue-inducing, difficult work either. Get some perspective.

Edited December 30, 2006 by Shadowstrider

[alanschu]

*Sighs*

 

And its that exact attitudes as to why there are so few small time independent companies these days.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

What attitude is that pretell? That some of us feel that Jade Empire underperformed, and that the underperforming Jade Empire still outsold all of Troika's games combined? Or just Volourn's passionate fervour?

 

A big part of the decline of small time independent companies is the fact that the cost of developing games as risen exponentially. Small studios still exist, but you won't see them release games in the mainstream anymore. It's too expensive.

 

 

and vol is again comparing xbox to pc... not same. don't go off on your je defense again.

 

You're a smart guy. You should know that simply stating this is an open invitation for him to start talking about it some more.

 

 

There is a reason so many people want to get jobs in the game industry, and it isn't because of the chicks, or to impress their parents. It isn't to prove how they can overcome insurmountable, fatigue-inducing, difficult work either. Get some perspective.

 

Well, a lot of people want to become Doctors too

Edited December 30, 2006 by alanschu

[Volourn]

P.S. I don't go off on my 'JE defense'; I get off on it.

 

 

R00fles!

[Mortis Nai]

There is a reason so many people want to get jobs in the game industry, and it isn't because of the chicks, or to impress their parents.  It isn't to prove how they can overcome insurmountable, fatigue-inducing, difficult work either.  Get some perspective.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm telling you man "Crunch Day" The National Holiday of Game Developers, where they all get to kick Larry Probst in the nuts... it will take off, I know it will!

 

If we can have "Secretary's day" We can have "Crunch Day."

 

Pete needs a Holiday also... Hardest working man in the industry. I hear there is a roumer going around that he doesn't sleep, he restores his energy via Photosynthesis because he is one of the few children left over from the plant people invasion.

Edited December 30, 2006 by Mortis Nai

[Shadowstrider]

Well, a lot of people want to become Doctors too

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Doctors get chicks and parents brag about it, thus those two qualifiers.

[Azure79]

so your seeming nuttyness is your way o' sending us all to a deep, dark place... and you enjoys doing so?

 

fair 'nuff.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

btw, (and this ain't directed at vol,) there is many jobs that require constant education to keeps pace with industry... we doubt game developer learning curve is tougher than doctor or lawyer or even accountant learning curve.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Working for a Big 4 right now and you do need to keep pace with regulatory matters and technical accounting bulletins among other things. Plus they make you study.

As you might suspect, it's not very fun. Here's hoping my plans work out and I'm doing something more to my interests by the end of this year.

 

But back on topic, I've played Arcanum and Bloodlines and just gave up on ToEE after a few hours. I must say that Arcanum and Bloodlines were great fun to play. I didn't run into any significant bugs in Arcanum but I did get that bug in Bloodlines that prevents you from progressing, but that was remedied with a quick fix. Other than that, the game ran pretty well.

 

So I don't think their games were too buggy from my experience. Maybe I lucked out. But just from reading the article, they didn't seem to have the capacity to maintain a team of people to churn out quality titles. It seems like they underestimated the pure man hours needed to create a quality game of their vision and when push came to shove, had no choice but to give the game over to the publishers.

 

Plus, whats with having all that entertainment stuff? I understand the need for a creative outlet, especially for those in the business of creating games, but it seems like they just racked up a lot of needless expenses. No wait...thats the accountant in me talking. Back down boy! Back to the depths you!

 

So in short, lots of passion and vision, but less business sense.

 

I do miss them though. Any developers that set out to create CRPGS is good in my book. Its my favorite type of game now.

[alanschu]

Well, a lot of people want to become Doctors too

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Doctors get chicks and parents brag about it, thus those two qualifiers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

To be fair, I think a lot of people (how many is a lot?) that want to get into computer games think that it'd be more something that people think would be "kewl" to do. Even then, a lot of people may want to do it, but like many professions the number that want to and the number that do probably aren't that similar.

[saintfrancisnudecenterfold]

If you look at all of these games, they seem to excel in graphics and music, but for some reason it seems like Arcanum and all the other games by Troika have quite a bit of graphical strength but the gameplay doesn't seem quite so broad or deep as it could be given the time the designers claim to spend on these.

 

Not every hand on board a game design company is working on graphics. One rather compelling argument for me is when a friend's kid asked why these games looksed so pretty but didn't let people do much more than fight. The only reasonable answer for this is that while the guys in graphics design seems to do their job, no one else does.

 

The best solution to this is to fire the guys who aren't doing their work. Hire people who have been seminal in constructing games that permit a wide array of activity, computer games or campaign books or modules.

 

Who the heck wants to pay fifty to seventy dollars for a game that doesn't work when bought (especially if you do not have internet to gain patches), which doesn't allow much more than smacking things, and when there is a non-combat choice (such as dialogue) it appearxs that quite a bit of the dialogue only leads to more combat.

 

It's been said by many immature folk that a role-playing game is really just about fighting, nothing more. This false truism has been revealed to be false time and time again. Conflict and viance, yes. Combat? Not always. Ever play Birthright or a MUSH that doesn't focus on combat? Ever play Civilization and wonder what the game would be like if your character could walk through your great empire and talk to people? Ever see that roleplaying can be fun if alongside battle as main activities, there is diplomacy, intrigue, management of an economy and suchlike?

 

I've had to say this time and time again. Once I had a talk with MUD designers back in the early nineties and it took five years for anyone to catch up with the idea.

 

Pretty soon there will be a White Wolf MMORPG and perhaps following that a host of strategy-roleplay hybrids. Already a few MMO exist that focus on diplomacy and construction. It's only the primative and immature CRPG that do not take this into consideration and broaden their horizons.

 

A CRPG isn't *just* what designers have focused on for years -- the category of RPG and computer game are neither very limited, although the laziest and most foolish of game deisngers and players might claim that it's never gonna be anything but Diablo with a twist of text.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

Having worked in flooring, game development and baby sitting, I feel comfortable in saying you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

What area of game development do you work in?

 

If you found flooring and baby sitting difficult then, I suggest you don't have children and pay for someone to lay flooring instead of doing it yourself.

 

I've been in crunch since I started working at Bethesda, I've had less than 8 weeks where I worked less than 65-70 hours.  I couldn't visit the doctor on account of my broken toe for a month, none-the-less, it's been a cake walk in comparison to my time installing carpet.

 

Depends what you're doing... It really does, but from my experience in other jobs I wouldn't agree.

 

There is a reason so many people want to get jobs in the game industry, and it isn't because of the chicks, or to impress their parents.  It isn't to prove how they can overcome insurmountable, fatigue-inducing, difficult work either.  Get some perspective.

 

To make computer games perhaps that's a motivation