If your country drafts you for a war...

[metadigital]

Eternal life is a curse. I've seen Death Becomes Her.

[Calax]

Is it really that wrong and unpatriotic to not want to be forcibly made to fight in a war you want no part of or just don't believe in? That's what it comes down to; forced servitude, which is not what this country stands for.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, purely because the MILLIONS of free citizens who volunteered their lives in order that you might live in a free country. In their name, you owe the ideals for which they fought allegiance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't ask them to... I would have been quite happy under the "yoke of british oppression" or "Yoke of Canadian Oppression" thank you very much.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

Still waiting!

[Lucius]

Is it really that wrong and unpatriotic to not want to be forcibly made to fight in a war you want no part of or just don't believe in? That's what it comes down to; forced servitude, which is not what this country stands for.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, purely because the MILLIONS of free citizens who volunteered their lives in order that you might live in a free country. In their name, you owe the ideals for which they fought allegiance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't ask them to... I would have been quite happy under the "yoke of british oppression" or "Yoke of Canadian Oppression" thank you very much.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bullcrap )

[Kroney]

Ooo, juicy topic. This is my opinion and I have no doubt that it will ruffle a few feathers.

 

Firstly, would I allow myself to be drafted. Would I bollocks. I owe my country nothing. Absolutely nothing. I do, however, owe my girlfriend a lot. Most importantly is the guarantee that she will continue having a boyfriend.

 

Secondly, the justification. I am 26 years old and a British citizen. I am a loyal and proud British citizen. That does *not* mean that my Government has the right to force me into combat and potentially get me killed. At any time. Whether I believe in the war or not. The Government is there to serve *me*. I vote it in, I pay for it, it is *my* Government. I am a subject of the Queen, I am not a subject of the Ministry of Defence.

 

Thirdly, the concept of owing a country anything. As mentioned before, I am 26. I earn a decent amount of money. My country taxes me before I even see the full load. It then taxes me everytime I spend it. I get taxed on my home, I get taxed on my clothes, I get taxed on my food, I get taxed on anything, *anything* I try and do with my money. In certain things I get taxed multiple times. The US is the same. You get taxed coming in, you get taxed coming out and you get taxed everywhere in between.

 

I pay for my privilege of living in this country. I pay for the privilege through the nose. I pay, some might say, rather more than is fair. I pay to prop up the affluent lifestyles of the people in power and if I voted, I'd be voting to keep them in that nice comfortable position.

 

I will not pay with my life as well. Some outdated, backwards concept of "duty" can sod right off. I have a duty to defend my loved ones. If in a position of total war, I would fight because I would be fighting to defend their way of life. Were some joker to try and draft me for the war in Iraq, I would be fighting for Tone and Georgie's pet project. No.

 

Fourthly, the idea that I should leave my country. Seriously, get a grip. I was born here. I have the absolute right to stay in this country and to die in it. The end.

Edited December 8, 2006 by Kroney

[Arkan]

Amen, Krones!

[metadigital]

Is it really that wrong and unpatriotic to not want to be forcibly made to fight in a war you want no part of or just don't believe in? That's what it comes down to; forced servitude, which is not what this country stands for.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, purely because the MILLIONS of free citizens who volunteered their lives in order that you might live in a free country. In their name, you owe the ideals for which they fought allegiance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't ask them to... I would have been quite happy under the "yoke of british oppression" or "Yoke of Canadian Oppression" thank you very much.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's not possible for you to say, and is pretty immature and na

[Lucius]

North Korea ftw!

[Kroney]

Is it really that wrong and unpatriotic to not want to be forcibly made to fight in a war you want no part of or just don't believe in? That's what it comes down to; forced servitude, which is not what this country stands for.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, purely because the MILLIONS of free citizens who volunteered their lives in order that you might live in a free country. In their name, you owe the ideals for which they fought allegiance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't ask them to... I would have been quite happy under the "yoke of british oppression" or "Yoke of Canadian Oppression" thank you very much.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's not possible for you to say, and is pretty immature and na

[Guard Dog]

Ooo, juicy topic. This is my opinion and I have no doubt that it will ruffle a few feathers.

 

Firstly, would I allow myself to be drafted. Would I bollocks. I owe my country nothing. Absolutely nothing. I do, however, owe my girlfriend a lot. Most importantly is the guarantee that she will continue having a boyfriend.

 

Secondly, the justification. I am 26 years old and a British citizen. I am a loyal and proud British citizen. That does *not* mean that my Government has the right to force me into combat and potentially get me killed. At any time. Whether I believe in the war or not. The Government is there to serve *me*. I vote it in, I pay for it, it is *my* Government. I am a subject of the Queen, I am not a subject of the Ministry of Defence.

 

Thirdly, the concept of owing a country anything. As mentioned before, I am 26. I earn a decent amount of money. My country taxes me before I even see the full load. It then taxes me everytime I spend it. I get taxed on my home, I get taxed on my clothes, I get taxed on my food, I get taxed on anything, *anything* I try and do with my money. In certain things I get taxed multiple times. The US is the same. You get taxed coming in, you get taxed coming out and you get taxed everywhere in between.

 

I pay for my privilege of living in this country. I pay for the privilege through the nose. I pay, some might say, rather more than is fair. I pay to prop up the affluent lifestyles of the people in power and if I voted, I'd be voting to keep them in that nice comfortable position.

 

I will not pay with my life as well. Some outdated, backwards concept of "duty" can sod right off. I have a duty to defend my loved ones. If in a position of total war, I would fight because I would be fighting to defend their way of life. Were some joker to try and draft me for the war in Iraq, I would be fighting for Tone and Georgie's pet project. No.

 

Fourthly, the idea that I should leave my country. Seriously, get a grip. I was born here. I have the absolute right to stay in this country and to die in it. The end.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not to wander off topic too much but on the note of a citizens duty to pay taxes I had an idea. In 1997 I was cosidering a run for the US congress and one of the platform ideas I floated to my party manager was a bill that would make 20 year or more veterans of the US Armed forces exempt from federal income tax for life after their 20 year anniversary. If you've given your country 20 years or more of your life (and in US history there has never been 20 consecutive years without some kind of military action so most 20 year vets have seen combat) then you've done all that could ever be expected for your countrymen. It got a lot of traction in a political party that was already working to eliminate federal taxes anyway. I would love to have run with it.

[Kroney]

Not to wander off topic too much but on the note of a citizens duty to pay taxes I had an idea. In 1997 I was cosidering a run for the US congress and one of the platform ideas I floated to my party manager was a bill that would make 20 year or more veterans of the US Armed forces exempt from federal income tax for life after their 20 year anniversary. If you've given your country 20 years or more of your life (and in US history there has never been 20 consecutive years without some kind of military action so most 20 year vets have seen combat) then you've done all that could ever be expected for your countrymen. It got a lot of traction in a political party that was already working to eliminate federal taxes anyway. I would love to have run with it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There's a similar idea over here to stop soldiers paying tax whilst they're overseas. I agree that they shouldn't be paying tax whilst they're off fighting, but for the rest of their life? I don't know about that, to be honest.

[Guard Dog]

Something else to think about everyone. Hypothetical scenario here. After the collapse of the Weimar government in Germany in 1933, Hitler became the new Chancellor and he immediately set aside the Treaty of Versailles and began arming for war. Suppose the "Big Three" had then taken military action against Germany. After all they violated the terms of their peace agreement and Hitler was promising to reannex territory now independant or owned by other nations by force. It was twenty years after the war ended so conscription would be a must and they (the allies) would have been attacking a sovreign nation. But it would have been a short fight. At the time it would have appeared like an unjust and unnecassary war and many of you would have then looked at such a conflict as you do Iraq now.

 

But looking at it through the prisim of history, how many lives would have been saved? How would the world be different? If you had fought in 1933, perhaps your younger brothers or sons would not had had to fight in 1940. Sometimes an "unjust" small war now is better than a "just" big war later. Just something to think about.

[Gfted1]

There's a similar idea over here to stop soldiers paying tax whilst they're overseas. I agree that they shouldn't be paying tax whilst they're off fighting, but for the rest of their life? I don't know about that, to be honest.

 

We already do that, or at least we did while I was in the Navy for the first Gulf war. Not only was our pay tax free while on deployment, we also received "Imminent Danger Pay" (couple hundred extra per month) and got to send our mail out without the need for a stamp (wtf?).

[Kroney]

There's a similar idea over here to stop soldiers paying tax whilst they're overseas. I agree that they shouldn't be paying tax whilst they're off fighting, but for the rest of their life? I don't know about that, to be honest.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

We already do that, or at least we did while I was in the Navy for the first Gulf war. Not only was our pay tax free while on deployment, we also received "Imminent Danger Pay" (couple hundred extra per month) and got to send our mail out without the need for a stamp (wtf?).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's reasonable. Especially the stamp part.

[Gfted1]

There's a similar idea over here to stop soldiers paying tax whilst they're overseas. I agree that they shouldn't be paying tax whilst they're off fighting, but for the rest of their life? I don't know about that, to be honest.

 

We already do that, or at least we did while I was in the Navy for the first Gulf war. Not only was our pay tax free while on deployment, we also received "Imminent Danger Pay" (couple hundred extra per month) and got to send our mail out without the need for a stamp (wtf?).

 

That's reasonable. Especially the stamp part.

 

 

I always did feel that was the cherry on the top.

[Gorth]

But looking at it through the prisim of history, how many lives would have been saved? How would the world be different? If you had fought in 1933, perhaps your younger brothers or sons would not had had to fight in 1940. Sometimes an "unjust" small war now is better than a "just" big war later. Just something to think about.

Probably not a lot. The Japanese would still have attacked Pearl Harbour and the Soviets would most likely have steam rolled all of Europe and the rest of the surrounding continents.

[LoneWolf16]

Is it really that wrong and unpatriotic to not want to be forcibly made to fight in a war you want no part of or just don't believe in? That's what it comes down to; forced servitude, which is not what this country stands for.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, purely because the MILLIONS of free citizens who volunteered their lives in order that you might live in a free country. In their name, you owe the ideals for which they fought allegiance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The hypocrisy is stifling. )

 

And Kroney wins the thread.

[metadigital]

We didn't oppress you. You loved it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know you're trying to be humorous, but I don't get the reference.

 

By the way, I have never lived in an oppressed country (though I did visit Russia, whilst the Iron Curtain was up, back before the Moscow Olympics, so I have first-hand knowledge).

 

Second point of order, my father volunteered (under-age, too) for his service in WW2.

[Kroney]

We didn't oppress you. You loved it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know you're trying to be humorous, but I don't get the reference.

 

By the way, I have never lived in an oppressed country (though I did visit Russia, whilst the Iron Curtain was up, back before the Moscow Olympics, so I have first-hand knowledge).

 

Second point of order, my father volunteered (under-age, too) for his service in WW2.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm British, I'm assuming you're an American.

[metadigital]

You know what they say about that: you make an ass out of u and umption.

 

I live in the UK, my father was in the Australian Sixth Division, 16th Brigade.

 

 

 

Edit: I see you were trying to make some comment about the British control of their colonies in the North American continent, under George III. You should perhaps have targeted your reply to Calax, rather than me. Then it might have made (some) sense.

Edited December 8, 2006 by metadigital

[Calax]

Is it really that wrong and unpatriotic to not want to be forcibly made to fight in a war you want no part of or just don't believe in? That's what it comes down to; forced servitude, which is not what this country stands for.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, purely because the MILLIONS of free citizens who volunteered their lives in order that you might live in a free country. In their name, you owe the ideals for which they fought allegiance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't ask them to... I would have been quite happy under the "yoke of british oppression" or "Yoke of Canadian Oppression" thank you very much.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's not possible for you to say, and is pretty immature and na

[metadigital]

Your comment is a non-sequitur.

 

I understand that you might take issue with what is a "just war".

 

I don't know why you chose to denigrate the people who fought, voluntarily and under the draft, to keep the fascists from taking over the world sixty years ago (for example), or those who fought the War of Independence. (I can't be bothered to innumerate such concepts as how different the world would be had these conflicts been resolved differently. Try reading The Man in the High Castle, if you need some help.)

[Calax]

I differentiate because the american revolution was a bunch of guys makign a power grab so they didn't have to pay of the brits for the French-Indian war. I mean in most history classes they don't really explain other than that we were trying to pull of a militant case of Tax Evasion.

 

So I guess my problem is not with the soldiers, but it's more with the leadership.

 

I'd still run like hell should the draft come for a war of agression.

[Guard Dog]

I differentiate because the american revolution was a bunch of guys makign a power grab so they didn't have to pay of the brits for the French-Indian war. I mean in most history classes they don't really explain other than that we were trying to pull of a militant case of Tax Evasion.

 

So I guess my problem is not with the soldiers, but it's more with the leadership.

 

I'd still run like hell should the draft come for a war of agression.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The big point of contention was that the colonies did not have representation in Parliament. Tax was the match that lit the powder keg but the powder keg was no autonomy or representation in what was becoming an increasing hostile govenmnent in England.

 

I find it ironic that our forefathers threw out the British over a 3% tax rate yet now we vote for politicains that have created a bloated, over reaching govenment that is crippling us with taxes, most of which the Constitution grants it no authority to levy. About time we got out our muskets again and lined up on the Boston Green.

[LoneWolf16]

Muskets vs. M1A2 Abrams

 

 

Not gonna be pretty.