North Korea

[Surreptishus]

Israel likes to maintain a state of nuclear ambiguity.

[Diamond]

Not really related to recent events, but still interesting: tourist photos in North Korea

 

One example: the border with South Korea. Guess where NK is.

[Tigranes]

Unfortunately, they won't let me post there despite registering and activating, so if someone might post this there, would be cool. It's because every time these kind of "The Real NK" info/pictures appear, they are mostly spot on, but theres a degree of distorted perspective. Since I'm South Korean, have been to US/Canada and have lived in NZ for 8 years, it might be useful to see how I see these things. I definitely see a degree of reverse bias, the huge desire to prove the NK propaganda wrong and make everything look bad, in these 'counter' photos.

 

"Water seems not to be avaliable everywhere when you leave the capital. A woman is washing her clothes in the river."

 

When I visited my friend's house in the state of Georgia, he had to drink bottled water because the tap water wasn't really good enough for drinking. Of course that's not as bad as washing your clothes out in the river and of course it'd probably be more widespread in NK.

 

Life in a village

 

Looks a lot like 1950-60s South Korea (not the cities, the countryside villages). There are still a few villages in SK that look like that. And in Western countries too, I'll wager.

 

during the day the elevator didn't work for 15 mins

 

Yes, because this never happens in ze capitalizt countriez. Oh no!

 

A composition showing the heroism of the workers, its a rather unique piece since the military is on the 2nd plan.

 

If you take out the horrible ad, it looks a lot like modern South Korea.. or America.. or whatever. Of course, this is only a very small part of even Pyongyang. What I notice from a lot of these pictures, though, is that the denizens of the capital at least a pretty well dressed. All those men with suits, too.

 

One of the 2 compositions next to Kim Il Song monument.

 

I'm sorry, but that's just as biased implication as NK's 'official' photos of the country.

 

hat means that a food joint is near, by the way even in China they draw a fork.

 

No, the korean words say "Outdoor Picnic Location".

 

Entrances to the subways look somewhat shabby.

 

Why is this shabby? It's not a work of art, but it wouldn't look out of place in a smaller city in America.

 

Inside you have the tourniquets that arrive you to the knee, contrary to chinese Koreans are of short stature. The sign reads: Kim Jong IL - the Sun of 21st century!

 

As anybody that has seen anime will know, South Korean/Japanese subways use these as well. It's called a different system.

 

Picture of posters

Left Poster:

Yellow words, top left = "To our descendants"

Red words, bottom centre = "Let's leave [our children] a united Korea"

Right Poster:

Top = "Chosun (the last unified Korean dynasty, and what NK still refers to Korea peninsula as) is one"

Words on peninsula, right side = "Let us establish a united nation of Korean peninsula and Manchuria"

Bottom words = Stuff like "Peaceful unification", "Ethnic solidarity"

 

Meh. Mostly he shows us very useful things, like the actual proliferation of more 'primitive' housing underneath the skyscrapers. But it just tickled me, despite me being South Korean, so this doesnt even look anything like SK. O_o

Edited October 11, 2006 by Tigranes

[Diamond]

I definitely see a degree of reverse bias, the huge desire to prove the NK propaganda wrong and make everything look bad, in these 'counter' photos.

I wouldn't say it is done intentionally, you shouldn't expect some other reaction from a person who have seen the collapse of Soviet Union.

Some things just seem to be very reminiscent of USSR, so he's a bit jaded.

[Hell Kitty]

Guess where NK is.

 

Where the North Korean soldiers are, obviously.

[Hildegard]

You might wish to explain exactly what you found so enjoyably hilarious about North Korea's nuclear test.  I found the post to be inappropriate and rather offensive because I apparently did not understand the cause of your mirth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm laughing because quite honestly it's really funny how Kim is desperate for attention...with this move he endangered his relationship with the closest thing they have to an ally - China. And they are the main reason why their country is still functioning...their trade is NK's main life line...and they're risking cutting it....

 

One question remains - has NK come to the point where they have to end the embargo to survive, and with this move they're trying to blackmail the rest of the world to do so....and if they don't and even impose more strict sanctions NK is going to find themselves in a position where they'll see war as the only option to 'survive'....and I wouldn't be surprised if they did so, no matter how irrational it may seem to all of us..

 

And why am I laughing again? I'm laughing how shortsighted, stupid and stuborn they are, they are killing themselves in the name of some false and empty pride....I hate the communist more then anything on this planet and I'm glad to see how they're digging their own graves...

 

And the Bush administration handled Iraq excellently and achieved most of their objectives, so they're not stupid how many picture them to be...the only catch is their objectives are different then they show them in public.

Edited October 11, 2006 by Hildegard

[~Di]

I'm laughing because quite honestly it's really funny how Kim is desperate for attention...with this move he endangered his relationship with the closest thing they have to an ally - China. And they are the main reason why their country is still functioning...their trade is NK's main life line...and they're risking cutting it....

 

One question remains - has NK come to the point where they have to end the embargo to survive, and with this move they're trying to blackmail the rest of the world to do so....and if they don't and even impose more strict sanctions NK is going to find themselves in a position where they'll see war as the only option to 'survive'....and I wouldn't be surprised if they did so, no matter how irrational it may seem to all of us..

 

And why am I laughing again? I'm laughing how shortsighted, stupid and stuborn they are, they are killing themselves in the name of some false and empty pride....I hate the communist more then anything on this planet and I'm glad to see how they're digging their own graves...

 

And the Bush administration handled Iraq excellently and achieved most of their objectives, so they're not stupid how many picture them to be...the only catch is their objectives are different then they show them in public.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ok, thanks for the explanation. I understand what you are saying.

 

Apparently Kim is not through being self-destructive. He is now saying that he considers the fact that the USA will not have one-on-one talks with Korea to be a declaration of war, and he is threatening to shoot off a nuclear missle. No, I am not making this up. Despite the fact that most experts suggest the only means he has to deliver a nuclear weapon... if indeed he has one that actually works... is via catapult, the words and threats alone are enough to give him all the attention he craves from the rest of the world... and probably some attention he doesn't crave.

 

Terribly dangerous game that madman is playing. Terribly dangerous. My nephew is stationed in Korea at the DMZ. I'm really scared spitless about what's going on.

[Colrom]

Apparently Kim is not through being self-destructive.  He is now saying that he considers the fact that the USA will not have one-on-one talks with Korea to be a declaration of war, and he is threatening to shoot off a nuclear missle.  No, I am not making this up.  Despite the fact that most experts suggest the only means he has to deliver a nuclear weapon... if indeed he has one that actually works... is via catapult, the words and threats alone are enough to give him all the attention he craves from the rest of the world... and probably some attention he doesn't crave.

 

Terribly dangerous game that madman is playing.  Terribly dangerous.  My nephew is stationed in Korea at the DMZ.  I'm really scared spitless about what's going on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I saw some of those reports too. But wasn't sure what to make of them. Are they all true? Are some of them NK propaganda and some of them SK and US propaganda? I don't know.

 

Anyway here's what I found:

 

Todays AP story:

 

"North Korea said Wednesday it will consider any increased pressure from the United States as "a declaration of a war," a North Korean Foreign Ministry spokesman said, according to North Korea's state-run news agency, KCNA.

 

Yesterday's AP story:

 

"The North, meanwhile, stepped up its threats aimed at Washington, saying it could fire a nuclear-tipped missile unless the United States acts to resolve its standoff with Pyongyang, the Yonhap news agency reported from Beijing.

 

 

Edited October 11, 2006 by Colrom

[metadigital]

All Kim Il Jung is doing is playing brinkmanship. And attempt to challenge his authority to do whatever he wants (he threatens) will make him more unreasonable.

 

The good news is that he is isolating himself from every country in the world, even normally po-faced (towards the interfering predelictions of the UN) China.

 

The bad news is that a lot more North Coreans are going to die before anything good happens.

[Hildegard]

My fear is what Bush will do now. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

[Judge Hades]

If North Korea decides to send a nuclear missile against the US I think the best response would be to wipe out the nation, from border to border.

[metadigital]

Because all those innocent citizens are to blame.

 

Gee, I'm glad you don't have any power.

[Colrom]

If North Korea decides to send a nuclear missile against the US I think the best response would be to wipe out the nation, from border to border.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

While I don't think the NK will attack my first instinct would be the same if they did.

 

My first instinct in these kinds of matters is always overly violent and fundamentally wrong.

 

An overwhelming response targeting the right capabilities and people would be appropriate if such a thing happened though.

 

But lets not go there. Some of this may be bluster. Some may be misinformation.

 

By the way the NK don't appear to have the required missile capability - but - as a backburner note - the Japanese definitely do have the capability.

Edited October 11, 2006 by Colrom

[Judge Hades]

Because all those innocent citizens are to blame.

 

Gee, I'm glad you don't have any power.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sorry, but i place the lives of the innocent Americans who would die in such attack in a higher regard.

[~Di]

I actually don't believe North Korea has the capacity to put a nuke on a missle and successfully launch it where they intend for it to go. Eventually they will figure out how to do that, but unless they've purchased the technology from Pakistan in the past couple of years, I don't believe they have the capacity to do what Kim is threatening to do. If he tries, he's got a fair chance of blowing himself all to hell, which wouldn't break my heart. Of course, he'd take a few hundred thousand of his people with him... presuming there are that many left who haven't starved to death under his benign leadership.

 

That isn't the point. Just the threat alone is enough that Japan is changing its constitution and getting ready to make its own nukes; South Korea now wants nuclear deterrents too. China is pissed beyond belief and Bush... BUSH... is in the Whitehouse with his own twitchy finger on the trigger.

 

Nuke or no nuke, it's widely accepted that North Korea has enough conventional weaponry trained on the south to turn Seoul into a smoking crater in hours. And although Kim probably can't launch a nuke on a missle, he can certainly drop one out of an airplane. Or he can try. I imagine the USA would blow it out of the sky before the tail fin crossed the DMZ. This is still a truly scary and sucky situation, because Kim is simply not a rational human being.

[metadigital]

Because all those innocent citizens are to blame.

 

Gee, I'm glad you don't have any power.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, but i place the lives of the innocent Americans who would die in such attack in a higher regard.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But I thought North Korea would be the perfect exemplar of your new-found self-sufficiency model.

[Judge Hades]

Don't be stupid. Having a starving population living way below the proverty line is not being a self sufficient country. The purpose of government is to protect and put its citizenry first and foremost, not on its own selfish wants.

Edited October 11, 2006 by Judge Hades

[Musopticon?]

Like the wanton acts of revenge?

[Judge Hades]

Revenge? Hardly. If a nation shows violence on another and is ultimately weaker than the nation they attacked then they are themselves forfiet.

[metadigital]

So what makes the lives of "innocent Americans" worth more than the lives of the innocent North Coreans?

[Azure79]

I highly doubt North Korea has the military capability to attack US mainland with a nuclear weapon, much less with more convential arms.

 

Launching a full-scale nuclear assault on the USA isn't their main objective anyway.

 

Last I read, South Korea far outstrips them in terms of military technology and armament. It is not in North Korea's best interest to start a war of attrition. Their main strategy would be,if war actually erupts, to surprise attack Seoul with a massive barrage of missiles, and then deploy their considerable ground forces to capture and occupy the city and probably capture government officials as well. North Korea knows it won't be able to hold Seoul for long so they'll declare a cease-fire with China's support. I think the logic is, will the US risk a full-scale war on the Peninsula most likely involving China to re-take half the peninsula? What if China and North Korea promise economic cooperation and slow integration into the free-market economy if NK can maintain their political autonomy? What if NK agrees to slowly open their markets to the US and agrees to use the Peninsula as a trading hub between China, Japan and Korea, also open to US corporations.

 

Despite many people claiming that Kim Jong Il is a unreasonable, crazy despot, I think he is smart gambling man. He has taken a substantial risk this time, especially when Sino-US relations are closer, economically speaking, than ever. Of course China will be peeved at NK, because the US will be blaming them partly for not keeping tabs on Kim Jong Il. China has the inherent problem of maintaining a growing economy that can sustain the huge population. Strained relations with the US will jeopardize this.

 

I see Kim's actions as a big gamble to get the US to agree to direct talks without South Korean influence or input. The way the talks are set-up right now, NK has to jump through hoops (Japan, China, Russia, South Korea) to get to the big guy, the USA. Kim wants direct access, direct talks and direct agreements with the US in the form of lifted sanctions and economic support. Obviously the threat of possessing a nuclear arsenal will provide him with leverage.

 

The US won't be able to just bomb NK or invade the country either. Not with a powerful China crouching in the background. Despite the official criticism displayed by China at the nuclear tests, I highly doubt this will make them sit by and watch as the US performs military actions just a few miles from their borders.

 

I'm curious as to see how this will turn out. I hope the situation does not escalate as my entire family is in Korea.

 

I actually have to go home to Korea from SF at the end of November. At least I'll get cheap airfare no?

[Judge Hades]

So what makes the lives of "innocent Americans" worth more than the lives of the innocent North Coreans?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

They are worth more to me because I am an American.

[metadigital]

Despite many people claiming that Kim Jong Il is a unreasonable, crazy despot, I think he is smart gambling man. He has taken a substantial risk this time, especially when Sino-US relations are closer, economically speaking, than ever. Of course China will be peeved at NK, because the US will be blaming them partly for not keeping tabs on Kim Jong Il. China has the inherent problem of maintaining a growing economy that can sustain the huge population. Strained relations with the US will jeopardize this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Trouble is, as with all despots in Stalinist states, no-one can tell them any uncomfortable truths. Like this was a really bad idea, and a low-probability win.

I see Kim's actions as a big gamble to get the US to agree to direct talks without South Korean influence or input. The way the talks are set-up right now, NK has to jump through hoops (Japan, China, Russia, South Korea) to get to the big guy, the USA. Kim wants direct access, direct talks and direct agreements with the US in the form of lifted sanctions and economic support. Obviously the threat of possessing a nuclear arsenal will provide him with leverage.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The US won't give Iran direct one-on-one talks. Considering that Iran is borderline entering the Nuclear club, the US CANNOT accede to North Corea's demands without also giving a big green light to Iran. And the only thing worse than NK letting off a nuke, is Iran doing it too.

The US won't be able to just bomb NK or invade the country either. Not with a powerful China crouching in the background. Despite the official criticism displayed by China at the nuclear tests, I highly doubt this will make them sit by and watch as the US performs military actions just a few miles from their borders.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Military action isn't even being discussed by the US. It'll be sanctions.

So what makes the lives of "innocent Americans" worth more than the lives of the innocent North Coreans?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They are worth more to me because I am an American.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, I know, I was just showing you what a hypocrite you are.

[Judge Hades]

Iran having nuclear power doesn't bother me as much as North Korea having a nuclear missile. Until proven otherwise, Iran seems to be using nuclear energy as a power source and not as a weapon. If they truly saught nuclear weaponry they would have bought them when the USSR crumbled. They had the resources to. However North Korea didn't.

 

Also refusing to go to the table to talk things out, to reconcile differences, is rather childish and solves nothing. If Bushie really wanted to settle with Iran we need to open up direct line communication between our two countries.

[Judge Hades]

Yeah, I know, I was just showing you what a hypocrite you are.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How is it hypocritical for placing more value on the lives of your fellow citizens than some random person from another country? I place more value on the lives of people I know and the family I have over strangers. I place more value of strangers who are citizens of my own country over strangers of a foreign country. I don't see anything hypocritical about that.