Prison justice

[Hassat Hunter]

Source? Statistics please. Just throwing a random statement with a vague reference to "newspapers" about hordes of senior citizens killing folks won't do.

 

Same here. It is a rare case, unless you have some statistics to indicate otherwise.

 

How can one link to a newspaper; and the case given is already pretty old. Sure; it IS a rare case... but it happens! And if the offender was already jailed 3 or so times before that for the same offence... <_<

Don't say it is common; just that it is not unheard of... and happens...

 

I disagree with the death penalty simply because of the few cases of people who have proven their innocence like 10 years after they were sentenced

 

New invention; DNA.

Makes it almost impossible to kill the wrong person :cool:

[Hell Kitty]

Death should be the punishment for all crimes - murder, rape. jaywalking, downloading copyrighted material from the internet... If you can't obey the law you don't deserve to live.

[alanschu]

What you fail to understand, and this is not a dodge, that the definition of murder is in fact an unlawful act.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, I got that. You're being stuck on semantics. I'm talking about what if all the actions that would typically be considered murder today, were no longer illegal. In other words, what would your opinion be if murder essentially didn't exist. The reason why I provided the context of "murder," was because we know what type of situations where those crimes don't exist. Case in point was when I didn't use the term murder, you started talking about "lawful killings" like executions, which were not the types of killings I was talking about.

 

I figured it was obvious, but I guess it wasn't.

Edited September 30, 2006 by alanschu

[alanschu]

and the killers of the elderly?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Same thing.

 

If you brutally murder an old woman, say hello to the horses who like running in opposite ways with parts of you attached.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And what about the killers of 20 year old males?

 

 

New invention; DNA.

Makes it almost impossible to kill the wrong person 

 

Sucks to be one of the people that don't qualify under "almost."

Edited September 30, 2006 by alanschu

[Hassat Hunter]

New invention; DNA.

Makes it almost impossible to kill the wrong person 

 

Sucks to be one of the people that don't qualify under "almost."

 

Pretty much yes.

But the chance is very rare and far less "innocents" die than when notorious criminals get released and re-do their *work*...

 

*Work* killings it seems most anti-death-penalty people have no problem with...

[Diamond]

Don't say it is common; just that it is not unheard of... and happens...

Yes, I was just picking at your assertion that there are plenty of old recidivists.

[Surreptishus]

Heh, maybe there's an upside to the death penalty after all.

[alanschu]

But the chance is very rare and far less "innocents" die than when notorious criminals get released and re-do their *work*...

 

Okay, you know I have to ask you for some sort of evidence to substantiate a claim like this.

 

 

*Work* killings it seems most anti-death-penalty people have no problem with... 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm not sure where anti-death-penalty people have no problems with murderers getting released and killing people.

 

In fact, this is just a bull**** strawman argument, and borderline inflammatory statement, while at the same time just being just downright insulting. I highly doubt that the people against the death penalty are A-OK with just letting people out simply because they can, or because they need to "make room."

 

The thing is, I'm not sure there's much merit to your claims about them all getting released "to make room" (or otherwise) anyways. I'm sorry if your country's penal system doesn't have a life sentence or anything similar, but that's your own country's fault. Yes you'll always be able to find an example to support a claim that "Oh look, this murder got out and killed again." On the other hand, I'll bet you'll never find a news story about a murderer that got released on parole and never killed another person (this is part of the main criticism of the media, in that it's sensationalist nature leads people to believe that the events being described are more common than they actually are). Or about a guy that molested a child and never did it again after prison.

 

As for prisons just up and letting serial killers out after serving only part of their prison sentence, tell that to someone like Charles Manson. Still in prison and still no sign of parole (mostly because he cannot be granted parole). But hey, if the media comments on something, it's probably a fairly accurate representation of what reality is like.

 

 

 

EDIT: @Krookie

I'm going with Hades on this one. I mean, why should I be able to take life from someone, and keep mine?

 

Couldn't you apply this same logic to the executor as well? Why should the executor be able to take life from someone, and still keep his? Is it just because of a(n arbitrary) Law?

Edited September 30, 2006 by alanschu

[astr0creep]

Death should be the punishment for all crimes - murder, rape. jaywalking, downloading copyrighted material from the internet... If you can't obey the law you don't deserve to live.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There cannot be laws without someone breaking them.

 

Hmm. Then again, there cannot be criminals without laws...

[Hassat Hunter]

Okay, you know I have to ask you for some sort of evidence to substantiate a claim like this.

 

And as you know by now I cannot give a link for a stat of such...

Hell; Wouldn't even know where to start looking for something like this on the net...

 

I'm not sure where anti-death-penalty people have no problems with murderers getting released and killing people.

 

Most of them I hear are not exactly replacing "Death penalty" with "life sentance" either... so that means these convicted ones get released. Then again I might have been listening to the wrong Anti-folks...

 

On the other hand, I'll bet you'll never find a news story about a murderer that got released on parole and never killed another person

True... But if I read in the media right now continues reports on the killing and raping of a 15-year old by a man who "already was convicted for this twice before; is known to have abused his family... and possibly also did this 10 years ago with another girl (but not convicted)" I cannot wonder but think WHY?

 

As for prisons just up and letting serial killers out after serving only part of their prison sentence, tell that to someone like Charles Manson.

I ain't living in the US...

[Pope]

I obey the law while the murderer did not. That in of itself makes me better than him or her. I have no problem in executing a murderer and a child rapist, under the law.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I pity people that blindly follow the law, not even considering that it might not even make any sense at all.

Law is a human construction. That, per definition, makes it imperfect.

 

Being a 4th year law student, I believe I'm qualified to make this statement.

 

Of course, complete chaos would not at all offer a better solution, but still, it is something to ponder upon.

[astr0creep]

Let's see...

Assuming they do more or less serious crime (that deserves 50 years in prison) in their early twenties, then, when they are out, they are in 70s. Are you seriously suggesting that they are capable of killing/raping(lol)/stealing at that age?

 

Happened before... will happen again.

Plenty of 65+ murderers wandering about killing folks... unless newspapers make up stuff...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Source? Statistics please. Just throwing a random statement with a vague reference to "newspapers" about hordes of senior citizens killing folks won't do.

 

And about the rape part; there are several stories of grandparents abusing their grandchildren... while they are indeed of such an age. Killing them seems like a good thing to me... call it "forced euthanasia (sp?)"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Same here. It is a rare case, unless you have some statistics to indicate otherwise.

 

Recidivism at this age is uncommon, unless of course this paper (Canadian) "makes stuff up".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

A few weeks ago, in the suburbs of Montreal, a man working as a daycare worker was arrested for breach of parole.

He was a well known, multiple offense pedophile...

 

Anyone that hurts children(I'd say under 13) in anyway(murder, rape, torture, abuse) deserves torture in my book.

It is unacceptable and death for these offenders is too easy.

 

I say feed them their own test1cles.

[astr0creep]

Of course, complete chaos would not at all offer a better solution, but still, it is something to ponder upon.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

And yet, animals have no laws, they live in chaos and all is perfect.

Why is that?

[Pope]

Of course, complete chaos would not at all offer a better solution, but still, it is something to ponder upon.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And yet, animals have no laws, they live in chaos and all is perfect.

Why is that?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because they're stupid, and thus, not egocentric.

 

Animals live by the laws of nature, by the way. Mankind has practically forsaken nature and instinct, mainly because of his intelligence and thereby his ability to do so.

Edited September 30, 2006 by Pope

[Hassat Hunter]

Or the animals are WAY smarter than us.

 

That is what I believe atleast... just a matter of how you look at it...

[Checkpoint]

As for prisons just up and letting serial killers out after serving only part of their prison sentence, tell that to someone like Charles Manson.

I ain't living in the US...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Neither is Alan.

[Dark_Raven]

While the guy is scum this was uncalled. I chuckle when I find CRIMINALS judging CRIMINALS.

 

These CRIMINALS who perpetrated this CRIME should be FRIED!

 

This guy got convicted, and sentenced. That was/is his punishment.

 

Case closed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[astr0creep]

Because they're stupid, and thus, not egocentric.

 

Animals live by the laws of nature, by the way. Mankind has practically forsaken nature and instinct, mainly because of his intelligence and thereby his ability to do so.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

First, I'm with Hassat on this.

 

Second, the only law of nature is "Only the strong survive" which, when you think about it, is the same for humans. But we can change the word "survive" with "prosper", as the success of one's life is dependent on one's prosperity or financial success. And to be sucessful financially one needs to have certain strengths(of mind at least).

 

Third, animals have a definite capacity to reason, to solve problems. If you ever own a dog, a cat, even a dumbass bird, you will observe this every day. Saying that animals are stupid is wrong. They have intelligence most definitely.

 

I believe what made humans the top species on earth is imagination, not intelligence. Being able to imagine tools and how to make and use them for example. But thats just me.

 

L@ter

[Hassat Hunter]

I believe what made humans the top species on earth is imagination, not intelligence. Being able to imagine tools and how to make and use them for example. But thats just me.

 

Then again also monkeys (sticks, rocks); birds (traffic lights, trucks!!! (w00t)) and other animals do this...

 

I believe the only reason why we are the "top species" on earth is because we alter the area to suit us instead of alter us to suit the area. Making it harder for the other species to live with us... and giving us domination... since we have the power to make the place completely unhabitable for any creatures besides us...

[Nartwak]

And yet, animals have no laws, they live in chaos and all is perfect. 

Why is that?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It isn't.

[metadigital]

Heh, maybe there's an upside to the death penalty after all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is hedonistic economics: one bad person can be used to improve the lives of many others ...

[Judge Hades]

I obey the law while the murderer did not. That in of itself makes me better than him or her. I have no problem in executing a murderer and a child rapist, under the law.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I pity people that blindly follow the law, not even considering that it might not even make any sense at all.

Law is a human construction. That, per definition, makes it imperfect.

 

Being a 4th year law student, I believe I'm qualified to make this statement.

 

Of course, complete chaos would not at all offer a better solution, but still, it is something to ponder upon.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't blindly obey the law.

[Dark Moth]

I obey the law while the murderer did not.  That in of itself makes me better than him or her.  I have no problem in executing a murderer and a child rapist, under the law.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just because you obey the law and a murderer did not does not make you morally better than him or her. For all we know, you may have had the desire to kill someone more than once in your life but only refused to do so for fear of the consequences. Then the only difference between you and the murderer would be that he had the balls to actually take a life while you did not. But that would not make you better than him or her.

[metadigital]

[T]he only difference between you and the murderer would be that he had the balls to actually take a life while you did not.  But that would not make you better than him or her.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There would also be the little matter of one less person breathing air, too ...

[Rosbjerg]

In my mind fighting fire with fire is an absolute last resort.. and should only be reserved for selfedefence! if we can, in any way, punish a person and then help him .. then that would have to be a better choice .. call me naive, but I would much rather be idealistic than coldheartet and so detached that I would advocate further killings.. No wonder this world is so ****ed up! I don't understand how you can look yourselves in the mirror well knowing that you are partly responsible for another mans death.. Because if you advocate Capital Punishment that makes you just responsible for every life they take! you allowed them to do it.. Always remember that.....