Do atrocities come with an expiry date?

[Kaftan Barlast]

I was watching Scrubs on the Telly and its the episode where Turks brother comes to visit and he makes a joke about Turk being his biatch now and J.D takes it further and mentions something about slavery which causes Turks brother to fly into a minor rage.

 

Then I saw an interview about a young Jewish lady that was "very active in holocaust issues" what does that even mean? What is there left to be active in?!

 

And those are just the two major things in the west. Out east we have Chinese and Russians still pissed about what the Japanese did to them back in the 19th century.

 

 

 

That made me think; all that was a long, long time ago, most of our parents werent even born then. The guys who did it are dead, the victims are dead, what is there left to do?

 

If I had been J.D (Id be more like a cross between him and Dr. Cox but still) I would have said that I have about as much to do with slavery, as he has with the Moorish invasion of the Iberian peninsula in 711AD, and that he should S T F U.

 

 

The main issue here is: when does history become history and when does the victims right to claim the guilt card end? (and why do I feel like this thread might classify as "controversial" ? )

Edited August 6, 2006 by Kaftan Barlast

[Blarghagh]

I think it's generally a way to be angsty and angry at the world. Sometimes it's people trying to justify their own racism or a replacement for racism.

 

"Man the world hates jews, just look at the holocaust, so I can hate it back."

"Man the world hates blacks, just look at apartheid, so I can hate it back."

"Man the world hates us whites 'cause they blame their problems on us, so I can hate it back."

[astr0creep]

This is not the first time I read/hear such thoughts.

 

The answer that usually pops ups is "We must remember the mistakes of the past so that we do not repeat them in the future" or something to that effect.

 

I think this is the wrong to look at things.

 

People should just lighten up and live their lives together.

I think the particular incidents you give as examples only serve to feed hatred, frustration and racism among everyone.

 

Also, too often those people who give their people's history as a means of bitching forget about some important details.

Like Blacks selling other Blacks into slavery in Africa because even amongst them they had a concept of superior/inferior Blacks.

Like the Jewish people that keep reminding the world that 6 million of them died at the hands of Germans in WW2 when in fact Nazis hated everyone, that gays and blacks, asians, handicaps, etc also died in the holocaust, that it was 6 million people that died, not 6 million Jews(although most of them probably were).

 

I never owned a human and neither did my parents or even my grandparents. I accept everyone in my society and I believe everyone has a right to live the way they please.

 

Why should I have to pay for things someone did decades ago?

Why can't we remember without letting go?

Edited August 6, 2006 by astr0creep

[Arkan]

This is not the first time I read/hear such thoughts.

 

The answer that usually pops ups is "We must remember the mistakes of the past so that we do not repeat them in the future" or something to that effect.

 

I think this is BS.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, it's not really BS, per se. I agree with that statement, but I also agree that we shouldn't let past events affect our everyday lives.

 

There have been movies, TV episodes, and books that deal with clans/groups of people have been warring for centuries but don't even remember why they were fighting, other than the transgressions of their ancestors.

[astr0creep]

This is not the first time I read/hear such thoughts.

 

The answer that usually pops ups is "We must remember the mistakes of the past so that we do not repeat them in the future" or something to that effect.

 

I think this is BS.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, it's not really BS, per se. I agree with that statement, but I also agree that we shouldn't let past events affect our everyday lives.

 

There have been movies, TV episodes, and books that deal with clans/groups of people have been warring for centuries but don't even remember why they were fighting, other than the transgressions of their ancestors.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

FIXED

[kirottu]

Like the Jewish people that keep reminding the world that 6 million of them died at the hands of Germans in WW2 when in fact Nazis hated everyone, that gays and blacks, asians, handicaps, etc  also died in the holocaust, that it was 6 million people that died, not 6 million Jews(although most of them probably were). 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I thought it was 11 million people died in concentration camps and 6 million of them were jews.

[astr0creep]

Like the Jewish people that keep reminding the world that 6 million of them died at the hands of Germans in WW2 when in fact Nazis hated everyone, that gays and blacks, asians, handicaps, etc  also died in the holocaust, that it was 6 million people that died, not 6 million Jews(although most of them probably were). 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I thought it was 11 million people died in concentration camps and 6 million of them were jews.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hum... yeah... That's what I meant. :">

 

I'll be in the Star Wars forums...

[Kaftan Barlast]

The exact number of people killed by the Nazi regime may never be known, but scholars, using a variety of methods of determining the death toll, have generally agreed upon common range of the number of victims. Recently declassified British and Soviet documents have indicated the total may be somewhat higher than previously believed[24]. However, the following estimates are considered to be highly reliable. The estimates:

 

    * 5.1

[Volourn]

We should not forget the past; but we should not allow it to rule the present or the future.

 

Like others in this thread, I have NEVER owned a slave or murdered a jewish person so STOP trying to make me feel guilty 'cause it won't work. I owe nobody nothing over these events.

 

Period.

Edited August 6, 2006 by Volourn

[thepixiesrock]

So you owe somebody something then?

Edited August 6, 2006 by thepixiesrock

[Archmonarch]

But back on-topic, I dont think there is even a possibility that we could forget about slavery or the holocaust or the victims of the soviet system. But we must acknowledge that these events are now parts of history, to be treated no different than when we read about the fall of the Roman empire.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The difference is there are no Romans around nowadays to keep bringing the fall of Rome up. Until prejudice is completely eliminated (not likely), people on both sides will keep rehashing the same issues. To take the example of the Holocaust, Neo-Nazis (their numbers are growing more and more every year in the past few decades) and other Antisemites cite the Holocaust as a lie, or when they acknowledge it at all, as a triumph for the Aryan race. Jews cite it as an atrocity and use it to display Antisemitism in the past and modern worlds. It serves a purpose for both parties, and until it does otherwise, no one will let it go.

 

I guess what Im trying to say is that the issues wont disappear until the causes also disappear. But as people will always find some reason to hate each other, I'm not enthusiastic about the chances.

Edited August 6, 2006 by Archmonarch

[Laozi]

Issues are always more complex then simply forgetting that something really inhumane happened some two-hundred years ago to someones ancestors. Take a black man in america.

 

His ancestors were more then likely brought here as a slave. Many generations later his decendents were freed really as a means to "get back" at the south for suceeding from the nation and starting the Civil War. Then for another hundred years or so black people were treated as 2nd class citizens through out the United States, going as far to pass the Jim Crow laws. Then as the black people finally started taking their rightful place in the American democracy their most influential leaders are systematically assassinated. These conditions put the majority of black people in the "lower-class" of america forcing them into low income housing in very specific neighborhoods. School districts are drawn up and currently under the ISD system schools are funded so that rich districts have more money for education where as poor districts have less money instead of the money being pooled and shared. Then voting districts are drawn up and these neighborhoods are then divided to minimize their voice.

 

For a black person it seems that it would be easy to forget about one or two of these things, but such a deliberate pattern breeds a culture of righteous anger that one really can't deny without turning a blind eye to. Where as I have never participated in any activity to subjugate another group of people, I also have never participated in anything to change things either.

[Pidesco]

Ironically, if it wasn't for slavery, most African-Americans would be in Africa today dying by the bucketload.

[Kaftan Barlast]

Ironically, if it wasn't for slavery, most African-Americans would be in Africa today dying by the bucketload.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

Now that's exactly the kind of positive attitude we need in the world today! It's strange that todays african american populace does not realise; that between suffering a few measly years of slavery, repression and racial bigotry.. or dying a premature death from a combination of starvation, aids and some guy in a toyota pickup with an Ak-47; The african-american clearly got the better deal.

 

 

 

( no, I havent been watching too much Colbert Rapport )

[Krookie]

Kaftan, I hope that was sarcasm.

[Pidesco]

Don't forget that blacks in Africa also suffer from repression, slavery and tribal bigotry. The difference is that in Africa everything is done by their fellow blacks.

 

All in all, it's a nice world we live in, filled with nice people.

[Krookie]

Besides the mods on this forum. "

[Kaftan Barlast]

Kaftan, I hope that was sarcasm.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I dont have that wicked disclaimer in mys sig for nothing, buddy

[Krookie]

I've been here for a year and I don't think I've ever read a signiture that was more then a line or two.

Edited August 6, 2006 by Krookie

[Volourn]

"It's strange that todays african american populace does not realise; that between suffering a few measly years of slavery, repression and racial bigotry"

 

It's stranger still that many don't realize that Afrikan Amerikans (gah, I hate this term; are blacks in Kanada referred to as Afrikan Amerikans or Afrikan Kanadians? Hmmm...) today don't have to suffer slavery at all.... and, never have.

Edited August 6, 2006 by Volourn

[Krookie]

does your "C" key like...not work?

[taks]

The main issue here is: when does history become history and when does the victims right to claim the guilt card end? (and why do I feel like this thread might classify as "controversial" ? )

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

when those responsible are either dead or justice has dealt with AND, those that supported such behaviors are also no longer an influence.

 

the latter part is really subjective. for example, nobody alive today has legally held slaves in the US. however, it is easy to make the claim that black people were openly, legally, persecuted until the civil rights movements in the 50s/60s (yes, i know, discrimination continues, but that happens in all cultures and is unavoidable). so, there are probably a few that can still claim some sort of "guilt card" today (that are still alive), though many of the persecutors are either dead or have been punished.

 

personally, i don't buy the "discrimination" card as people discriminate in everything they do. they hire people they like, they live with people they like, they deal with and make friends with people they like, etc. to claim guilt based on this is, IMO, a cop-out.

 

taks

[Hurlshort]

The reverse side of this argument is that there still racists, white supremists, and neo nazi's out there. Now the majority of people aren't in that camp, but I think many people need a reminder that if you just live your life and ignore that hate exists, people get into some pretty messed up situations.

 

You can look at Hitler as an example of this. People didn't want to believe he was all that bad. The world had just finished a terrible war, and Hitler seemed to be rebuilding Germany, Berlin was even considered one of the greatest cities in the world. No one wanted to interfere.

 

So if a Jewish person want to throw out a reminder that "Hey, we went through some messed up sh*&" then I say let them. It may seem like they are drudging up the past, but it is a way of reminding us that hatred and bigotry is a part of human nature and it needs to be constantly checked.

[Judge Hades]

Bigotry and hatred a part of human nature? Say it not so.

 

The past is the past and we should never forget the past, but we should not let it justify the evils going on today nor the future. We need to learn from the past and make sure such things never happen again, but we won't unless it serves our personal interests and/or agenda.

[Hurlshort]

I also gotta add, racism is extremely prevalent is the US. It is still very much a problem. Just because slavery is over with and open discrimination is against the law doesn't mean everything is rosy in the world.