Generic RPGs VS story driven

[Maevar]

Hi, I just wanted to discuss this issue since it seems to be the trend to favour what i would refer to as "generic" RPGs in todays game design.

With generic i mean games that allows the player a large degree of freedom in relation to character generation, as well as generic and modular content that can be used in a wide context (such as in editors like NWN).

Basically i feel that RPG's are getting worse and worse after they peaked (quality wise - not sales wise) around 1999 with the amazing game Torment.

It seemed like a pretty bold experiment to have only one character and not the wide range that players are now getting used to from games like BG and NWN (despite the fact that final fantasy has done this for 11(?) games now). Obviously this design decision is cruxial if the game is supposed to be storydriven, and it really payed off for that game.

Its now 7 years since torment and no major PC RPG game i am aware of has had this approach implemented succesfully. Instead the games are getting bigger and more generic, and the experience is getting more and more shallow. I am fearing that NWN2 will be no different even if the designers are stating that they will put more emphasis in the story. Even an amazing setting and story is not enough if the player character cannot be a central part of that. If the player can be a strong male dwarf or an empatic female elf in the same story it simply cannot work. The main character should take center stage in the story and not just have the story revolving around him/her.

The second problem is the modular approach to content.

While i can absolutely understand the greatness of a flexible editor and easy to build content for the more creative players, it also sadly really suffers the game. A big part of What made BG1, BG2, icewind dale and Torment great was the uniqueness of the gfx. This becomes painfully obvious when playing a game like NWN where the same content is being reused again and again. Gone are the huge castles ('hero tiles') and vast cities divided in different recogniseable themes. This, i fear, is not because the indivdual content is bad or because 3d still had a long way back in 2002, but simply because of the overall design approach. If you design the content to be used widely it also by definition becomes soulless.

 

So I ask you if you can see some more light at the end of the tunnel for RPG, or if you also feel that we will never experience to walk streets similar to Sigil, Athkatla or Baldurs Gate ?

[mkreku]

Try Gothic 2 Gold (Gothic 2 + Night of the Raven expansion) and then come again. It is 3D, but I feel it fits a lot of what you seem to be looking for in a RPG anyhow. The land of Khorinis is for me what I believe Sigil/Athkatla/Baldur's Gate are for you.

[Kaftan Barlast]

(mkreku is one of the 3 people outside of Germany who actually liked Gothic 2, so I would recommend you take his praise with a huge grain of salt. Most people find it extremely bland and unoriginal with a very frustrating control system)

 

 

I dont quite fully grasp what you are trying to say with this post, Maevar, so if Im repying to something you didnt intend to say then feel free to correct me.

 

 

RPG's are all about the freedom to play the game like you want to. You have to be able to create your own main character andyou have to be able to solve problems the way you see fit. This means that the game needs to be very open( or generic as youd say) to allow the player freedom. The downside is that you cant tie the main character to the world and the story as well as if you have a ready-made hero with a background of his own. F.ex you cant have a major plot hook involving the PCs cousin George if the player can choose from 8 races where half hatch from eggs and dont even have cousins. If you want strong stories and dont mind playing pre-made characters Id recommend adventure games rather than CRPGs

 

 

And for point two: Tilebased graphics is repetitive and boring. However, the way it looks implemented into NWN2 is far superior to what we have in NWN where every module looks prety much the same.

But tilebased graphics are essential for the NWN concept of having a game where creating your own adventures in the toolset is half the point. If you had to build each level from scratch, it would be so complicated and time-consuming that 95% of the people involved in NWN modmaking couldnt do it.

Then again, even in NWN you can make your own custom tiles and models, so the possibilities are there.

Edited June 15, 2006 by Kaftan Barlast

[Maevar]

RPG's are all about the freedom to play the game like you want to. You have to be able to create your own main character andyou have to be able to solve problems the way you see fit. This means that the game needs to be very open( or generic as youd say) to allow the player freedom. The downside is that you cant tie the main character to the world and the story as well as if you have a ready-made hero with a background of his own. F.ex you cant have a major plot hook involving the PCs cousin George if the player can choose from 8 races where half hatch from eggs and dont even have cousins.

 

Yes i agree that RPG's need to have a large degree of freedom, but too much freedom (or openness) can also make the experience quite uninteresting, if taken to the extremes. In most games the story is just some backdrop that needs to be there, but really has no impact on the gameplay. If the player avatar is truly involved in that story, it will be much more interesting and engaging.

The problem is that everyone these days are churning out MMORPG's and generic RPG's while no one is making games that are really truly story and character driven.

 

If you want strong stories and dont mind playing pre-made characters Id recommend adventure games rather than CRPGs

 

Sadly the golden days of the pure adventure games are over .

 

And for point two: Tilebased graphics is repetitive and boring. However, the way it looks implemented into NWN2 is far superior to what we have in NWN where every module looks prety much the same.

But tilebased graphics are essential for the NWN concept of having a game where creating your own adventures in the toolset is half the point. If you had to build each level from scratch, it would be so complicated and time-consuming that 95% of the people involved in NWN modmaking couldnt do it.

Then again, even in NWN you can make your own custom tiles and models, so the possibilities are there.

 

Yes i accept that the NWN approach is important for the community, but to some extent i also feel its becomming a crutch for the developers since its probably a lot more comfortable on the production pipeline to generate generic tiles, rather than having everyting planned out and based on special tiles (Im still on awe of how the BG games where made).

I hope its not a rationalization of that fact, that is leading to a decline in non-generic RPG's - we know you can do it

 

I look forward to see what you have achieved in NWN2, but honestly i still prefer the old approach. As i said i fear its not the actual quality of the individual content pieces, but rather the design decision to go generic, that makes the game suffer. Remember that these games are also about exploring and seeing new things.

 

I totally respect your decisions for the gamedesign of NWN2 but i just wanted to discuss if there can be alternatives in modern RPGs or if that era is dead?

 

Most likely its up to the smaller companies to lead on in the development of storydriven games, but since some of you guys where involved in the development of Torment I was curious to your thoughts on this.

[alanschu]

For the record I enjoyed Gothic 2 as well. Who's the other one?

[mkreku]

I think taks makes us three

[Blank]

Maevar, to me, the answer to your underlying question is that games cost a lot more than they used to. You note that these games need more creativity put into them, making each place in the game unique, but classical RPGs don't seem to make enough money to compensate for the time it takes to do those things.

 

If you look at it in a positive light, game-developers like Bio made it easy for consumers to create more for the game after the game is made. Even if there is some generic junk going on, a company would not do so well if they spent all their time making unique places and gave nothing to tide over the community until their next game.

 

I look at Advent: Rising as a game like that. Majesco said, "Let's make an adventure game with an awesome story and combat and every scene is epic." They failed money-wise, but I found the game to be an 8.5 to 9, so it wasn't a bad quality game...

 

There may have been other factors there, but after you played through the game once or twice, there was nothing much more I could do to enjoy it. No multiplayer, no modules, no community.

 

I hope RPG's have a bright future. I cringed when you repeatedly said, "I fear, I fear," because it got old; those fears were from worst-case scenarios and it seemed like you were generalizing all RPG's.

 

As a sidenote: Advent was cool but had some cheesy, kid moments. Kind of like how Darque is.

Edited June 16, 2006 by Blank

[Maevar]

Blank: Yes money is definitely a good reason for the way RPG's have evolved over the last years. This is why im so pessimistic in regards of ever playing a new high quality non-generic RPG again. Companies like Bioware have grown because of their succes with previous titles and in order to stay big they have to make "safe" products with a broad appeal. You can call it a Hollywood syndrome of sorts..

(I read on wikipedia that Diablo 1 sold 20 times the amout of copies than Torment did )

Hopefully we will see some more mature games in the future in order to differentiate themselves from the massmarked games - but to be honest i dont really believe that will happen.

 

Thanks for your suggestions concerning Advent and Gothic2 ppl

[Blank]

Companies like Bioware have grown because of their succes with previous titles and in order to stay big they have to make "safe" products with a broad appeal. You can call it a Hollywood syndrome of sorts..

(I read on wikipedia that Diablo 1 sold 20 times the amout of copies than Torment did   )

For sure such an evolution in RPG's is disappointing, and I wish the already successful companies such as Bioware would stop going for "safe bets", realize that people will buy their game simply because their name is on it, and make an epic, classic RPG. They are obligated to do so in my eyes.

 

From my sig, Urquhart says some stuff pertaining to this kind of:

While we will probably try our hand at other genres when we can utilize our talents in those games, I do want to have a "hardcore" RPG in production at all times whenever possible. It's a hard goal right now, since selling a hardcore PC RPG to a major publisher is pretty difficult, but I think we just need to figure out how to do what we want to do in terms that work for a publisher.

Edited June 16, 2006 by Blank

[Archmonarch]

I think taks makes us three

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Gasp! The mold has been broken, for I am Number 4.

[saintfrancisnudecenterfold]

After briefly playing Planescape Torment, I intentionally shattered the cd-roms it came on. I was not pleased with the game, it was poorly written I think. I only write this to relate that not everyone thought that game was the peak of story-based roleplaying. I actually believe Ultima 9 would've been, if it were permitted sufficient time for development and if it had not been plagued with errors by those working on the project and mishaps during production.

 

As far as storyline is concerned, it's not any of the "harsh and wicked" settings that seem to entertain me. Rather, the last story-based games that were interesting and entertaining were from Infocom and were text adventures, like Wishbringer, the Enchanter series, and Trinity. After Infocom fell, there were few story-based games that had a pleasing story and pleasing characters, in my opinion. Of course, Bioware and Black Isle tried.

 

One problem I've seen are unfocused, shallow characters, even in many Infocom games. Also, portions of the writing in most games is substandard, non-professional, and displeasing.

 

To see more elegant writing in a story-based game would be pleasing, as would more intricate characters. That's just my outlook on the issue.

[alanschu]

After briefly playing Planescape Torment, I intentionally shattered the cd-roms it came on.

 

Sounds like personal issues.

[Maevar]

saintfrancisnudecenterfold:

 

Fair enough if you didnt like Torment. Whether or not someone likes a game or its story is entirely sujective. However you must appriciate the design decisions and the attempt to give the story so much emphasis in the gameplay.

 

I am not asking for Torment 2, but im asking for more RPG's that have the courage to try and do some of the same things.

 

If you choose to do an FPS or RTS then the story is imo not that important (or at least not the most important). But for RPG the story/storytelling is key, since this genre is about the player tryng to immerse himself into the setting and his character.

 

The problem with contemporary RPG's is that they are more action games than real RPG's. it seems more important to have a flexible design/technology that can quickly be used to make "shake and bake" adventures - the story seems like a mere afterthought.

 

The games you write as your personly favorites does not follow this design pattern but rather the pattern of Torment (or the other way around if you like )

i simply used Torment as an example to illustrate it, but yes i also really do think that Torment is the 'peak' of RPG - but thats just a subjective opinion :]

 

Blank: Thanks for mentioning Urquhart's statement - it gives me hope

The irony is that if Obsidian made enough money to do what ever game they wanted and not care about publishers, they would also be such a big company that they would have to do more safe games :[

Its a wicked circle...

Just look at Blizzard now after they discovered what a goldmine WoW is: They are talking about doing a MMO for both diablo and starcraft now..

 

For sure such an evolution in RPG's is disappointing, and I wish the already successful companies such as Bioware would stop going for "safe bets", realize that people will buy their game simply because their name is on it, and make an epic, classic RPG. They are obligated to do so in my eyes.

 

Amen, but i can also understand their decision to make safer games due to their responsiblity to they workers. when you reach a certain size you have to be pragmatic to an extend.

Edited June 20, 2006 by Maevar

[Musopticon?]

I think taks makes us three

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Four, I'm not a jerry.

[Calax]

Just look at Blizzard now after they discovered what a goldmine WoW is: They are talking about doing a MMO for both diablo and starcraft now..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

this has been said as a false rumor.

 

And another part of your post has me bothered. To say that Story takes back seat to gameplay in the other genres shouldn't be true. Two of the most successful RTS's in the world have had an EXTREME amount of attention placed on their story. Similar with FPS. Half Life, Deus Ex, System shock... Hitman even- These are all on the "Must Play at least one of" lists you'll ever see. Why? because they have good immersive gameplay but they also have a Brillaint story backing them up.

 

so yes story is key to an FPS or RTS even if it's flimsier than a well used dollar bill.

[Maevar]

this has been said as a false rumor.

 

I heard that it was first claimed a false rumor and then cleared again as true. But maybe i got the wrong info. I stand corrected then

 

And another part of your post has me bothered. To say that Story takes back seat to gameplay in the other genres shouldn't be true. Two of the most successful RTS's in the world have had an EXTREME amount of attention placed on their story. Similar with FPS. Half Life, Deus Ex, System shock... Hitman even- These are all on the "Must Play at least one of" lists you'll ever see. Why? because they have good immersive gameplay but they also have a Brillaint story backing them up.

 

I think this is also a matter of taste, but i stand by my point. The games you mention all have excellent gameplay and they would still have been pretty decent games without the story because of that - thats imo not the case the other way around. StarCraft did not become a huge Esport game in Korea because of the story (which is one of the best in RTS imo), but because of the unpreceded gameplay and balance.

Also one could argue that Deus Ex is to some degree an RPG game )

 

Its just that im tired of ppl always complaining that modern games sucks because the story isnt as good as in movies or books. To that my reply is that story is not all games are about: games are about interaction and game-mechanics sometimes combined with a story.

In a game like quake3 the 'story' doesnt matter at all. (And its my favorite FPS of all time.)

 

For RPG thats a whole different matter altogether since the gameplay should be founded on the story (otherwise it will most likely just end up as a generic action game). Ofc this is a generalization, and you could probably find examples of non-RPG games that were 'saved' by a great story despite a lacking gameplay.

 

I hope that clears it up a little.

[alanschu]

I think story is important though, because if done well it can induce an emotional response.

[Maevar]

Sure. Im not saying that the story isnt important.

But for some games/genres it shouldnt be overemphasized imo.

 

In RPG's it just getting neglected all together, and this is the genre that needs a good story the most imo.

Edited June 27, 2006 by Maevar

[Jediphile]

I think this is also a matter of taste, but i stand by my point. The games you mention all have excellent gameplay and they would still have been pretty decent games without the story because of that - thats imo not the case the other way around. StarCraft did not become a huge Esport game in Korea because of the story (which is one of the best in RTS imo), but because of the unpreceded gameplay and balance.

Also one could argue that Deus Ex is to some degree an RPG game )

 

Its just that im tired of ppl always complaining that modern games sucks because the story isnt as good as in movies or books. To that my reply is that story is not all games are about: games are about interaction and game-mechanics sometimes combined with a story.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I tend to agree with you. The Jedi Knight games may have good or bad story (I not going to say either way), but whichever is true doesn't matter so much, because the point of the game is to have a backstory and some cutscenes that set up the player for the subsequent level that must be completed. Rarely indeed do you see the plot evolve much until you've moved from one cutscene through a level to another cutscene, unless you count horror stuff like Resident Evil, which is really more about shock effects than plot. Sure, you can have great plot in an RTS (I like Starcraft's, for example), but it really doesn't matter for the game to work, because even if the story is terrible, you can still have fun killing the baddies. The same is not true for RPGs and adventure games.

 

In a game like quake3 the 'story' doesnt matter at all. (And its my favorite FPS of all time.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Quake3 has a story

 

 

Same thing as Far Cry, I guess, but then the story didn't matter much there, either - it's just an excuse for the action.

 

For RPG thats a whole different matter altogether since the gameplay should be founded on the story (otherwise it will most likely just end up as a generic action game). Ofc this is a generalization, and you could probably find examples of non-RPG games that were 'saved' by a great story despite a lacking gameplay.

 

I hope that clears it up a little.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, but the most memorable moments I have are still from CRPGs and adventure games. Especially when you're betrayed by someone, because in RPGs you usually have to rely on other people, whereas in FPS or RTS, it's just you against everyone else, and if a character betrays you in the plot, then you just get to look forward to one more notch on your gun. As a player, you just don't have to care.

[Hell Kitty]

Half Life

 

Half Life has a great story? It's Doom all over again. Instead of space station/Mars/Hell we have research facility/desert/silly alien world. Instead of zombie marines & demons, we have zombies, aliens and real marines. Instead of a silent, no personality space marine, we have a silent, no personality Gordon Freeman.

 

The "must play" status of the games you list has nothing to do with the story.

 

I think the only genre that needs story is adventure (it's not dead yet!), but I do prefer RPGs when they have a story moreso than other genre. (I don't need any story in my FPS, only good shootin').

[alanschu]

Half Life has a great story? It's Doom all over again. Instead of space station/Mars/Hell we have research facility/desert/silly alien world. Instead of zombie marines & demons, we have zombies, aliens and real marines. Instead of a silent, no personality space marine, we have a silent, no personality Gordon Freeman.

 

The "must play" status of the games you list has nothing to do with the story.

 

It seems many would disagree with you though. You don't have to look very far for people that feel Half-Life's story is a good one. No one is thinking pulitzer prize stuff, nor do they compare it to stories of adventure games or RPG games.

[Hell Kitty]

In my opinion it's the presentation that did it for HL, the story itself is the same poop we've been feed over and over. Just because we enjoy the poop doesn't make it good.

[alanschu]

Presentation is still an important part of a story.

[Maevar]

Its an interesting discussion, but we are getting a little offtopic now

 

(probably also my own fault though)

[Lancer]

After briefly playing Planescape Torment, I intentionally shattered the cd-roms it came on.  I was not pleased with the game, it was poorly written I think. 

 

I guess it's fine if you didn't like Torment. But who in their right mind would say that Torment was "poorly-written?"

 

That's ridiculous.