Maevar

Its an interesting discussion, but we are getting a little offtopic now (probably also my own fault though)

Sure. Im not saying that the story isnt important. But for some games/genres it shouldnt be overemphasized imo. In RPG's it just getting neglected all together, and this is the genre that needs a good story the most imo.

Hi, if Chris is reading this im just curious to his thoughts on whether or not he feels that the modular approach to content we saw in NWN is a restriction on the gameplay: In Torment you were able to make very unique settings specifically made to fit the story. This made the game much more immersive and interesting from a roleplaying point of view. In NWN the design approach goes towards making the content generic and flexible and not designed very specifically the story. How will that same design approach (as i understand you will apply, since you will support a public toolset) affect the gameplay in NWN2 compared to NWN1 ? I fully understand the greatness of supporting a community, but i also feel that the price is too high on the quality of the game. /Cheers

I heard that it was first claimed a false rumor and then cleared again as true. But maybe i got the wrong info. I stand corrected then I think this is also a matter of taste, but i stand by my point. The games you mention all have excellent gameplay and they would still have been pretty decent games without the story because of that - thats imo not the case the other way around. StarCraft did not become a huge Esport game in Korea because of the story (which is one of the best in RTS imo), but because of the unpreceded gameplay and balance. Also one could argue that Deus Ex is to some degree an RPG game ) Its just that im tired of ppl always complaining that modern games sucks because the story isnt as good as in movies or books. To that my reply is that story is not all games are about: games are about interaction and game-mechanics sometimes combined with a story. In a game like quake3 the 'story' doesnt matter at all. (And its my favorite FPS of all time.) For RPG thats a whole different matter altogether since the gameplay should be founded on the story (otherwise it will most likely just end up as a generic action game). Ofc this is a generalization, and you could probably find examples of non-RPG games that were 'saved' by a great story despite a lacking gameplay. I hope that clears it up a little.

The biggest problem with your situations seems to be that you maybe got it a little backwards: You want to get into the game industri and you think that your biggest chance would be as a writer. In a perfect world it should have been: You are already a kickass writer that cant help making great stories just for fun and then you figure that you could do games also. There are already so many ppl out there that can do great stories and you will have to compete with alot of them. So i totally agree with:

saintfrancisnudecenterfold: Fair enough if you didnt like Torment. Whether or not someone likes a game or its story is entirely sujective. However you must appriciate the design decisions and the attempt to give the story so much emphasis in the gameplay. I am not asking for Torment 2, but im asking for more RPG's that have the courage to try and do some of the same things. If you choose to do an FPS or RTS then the story is imo not that important (or at least not the most important). But for RPG the story/storytelling is key, since this genre is about the player tryng to immerse himself into the setting and his character. The problem with contemporary RPG's is that they are more action games than real RPG's. it seems more important to have a flexible design/technology that can quickly be used to make "shake and bake" adventures - the story seems like a mere afterthought. The games you write as your personly favorites does not follow this design pattern but rather the pattern of Torment (or the other way around if you like ) i simply used Torment as an example to illustrate it, but yes i also really do think that Torment is the 'peak' of RPG - but thats just a subjective opinion :] Blank: Thanks for mentioning Urquhart's statement - it gives me hope The irony is that if Obsidian made enough money to do what ever game they wanted and not care about publishers, they would also be such a big company that they would have to do more safe games :[ Its a wicked circle... Just look at Blizzard now after they discovered what a goldmine WoW is: They are talking about doing a MMO for both diablo and starcraft now.. Amen, but i can also understand their decision to make safer games due to their responsiblity to they workers. when you reach a certain size you have to be pragmatic to an extend.

Blank: Yes money is definitely a good reason for the way RPG's have evolved over the last years. This is why im so pessimistic in regards of ever playing a new high quality non-generic RPG again. Companies like Bioware have grown because of their succes with previous titles and in order to stay big they have to make "safe" products with a broad appeal. You can call it a Hollywood syndrome of sorts.. (I read on wikipedia that Diablo 1 sold 20 times the amout of copies than Torment did ) Hopefully we will see some more mature games in the future in order to differentiate themselves from the massmarked games - but to be honest i dont really believe that will happen. Thanks for your suggestions concerning Advent and Gothic2 ppl

Yes i agree that RPG's need to have a large degree of freedom, but too much freedom (or openness) can also make the experience quite uninteresting, if taken to the extremes. In most games the story is just some backdrop that needs to be there, but really has no impact on the gameplay. If the player avatar is truly involved in that story, it will be much more interesting and engaging. The problem is that everyone these days are churning out MMORPG's and generic RPG's while no one is making games that are really truly story and character driven. Sadly the golden days of the pure adventure games are over . Yes i accept that the NWN approach is important for the community, but to some extent i also feel its becomming a crutch for the developers since its probably a lot more comfortable on the production pipeline to generate generic tiles, rather than having everyting planned out and based on special tiles (Im still on awe of how the BG games where made). I hope its not a rationalization of that fact, that is leading to a decline in non-generic RPG's - we know you can do it I look forward to see what you have achieved in NWN2, but honestly i still prefer the old approach. As i said i fear its not the actual quality of the individual content pieces, but rather the design decision to go generic, that makes the game suffer. Remember that these games are also about exploring and seeing new things. I totally respect your decisions for the gamedesign of NWN2 but i just wanted to discuss if there can be alternatives in modern RPGs or if that era is dead? Most likely its up to the smaller companies to lead on in the development of storydriven games, but since some of you guys where involved in the development of Torment I was curious to your thoughts on this.

Hi, I just wanted to discuss this issue since it seems to be the trend to favour what i would refer to as "generic" RPGs in todays game design. With generic i mean games that allows the player a large degree of freedom in relation to character generation, as well as generic and modular content that can be used in a wide context (such as in editors like NWN). Basically i feel that RPG's are getting worse and worse after they peaked (quality wise - not sales wise) around 1999 with the amazing game Torment. It seemed like a pretty bold experiment to have only one character and not the wide range that players are now getting used to from games like BG and NWN (despite the fact that final fantasy has done this for 11(?) games now). Obviously this design decision is cruxial if the game is supposed to be storydriven, and it really payed off for that game. Its now 7 years since torment and no major PC RPG game i am aware of has had this approach implemented succesfully. Instead the games are getting bigger and more generic, and the experience is getting more and more shallow. I am fearing that NWN2 will be no different even if the designers are stating that they will put more emphasis in the story. Even an amazing setting and story is not enough if the player character cannot be a central part of that. If the player can be a strong male dwarf or an empatic female elf in the same story it simply cannot work. The main character should take center stage in the story and not just have the story revolving around him/her. The second problem is the modular approach to content. While i can absolutely understand the greatness of a flexible editor and easy to build content for the more creative players, it also sadly really suffers the game. A big part of What made BG1, BG2, icewind dale and Torment great was the uniqueness of the gfx. This becomes painfully obvious when playing a game like NWN where the same content is being reused again and again. Gone are the huge castles ('hero tiles') and vast cities divided in different recogniseable themes. This, i fear, is not because the indivdual content is bad or because 3d still had a long way back in 2002, but simply because of the overall design approach. If you design the content to be used widely it also by definition becomes soulless. So I ask you if you can see some more light at the end of the tunnel for RPG, or if you also feel that we will never experience to walk streets similar to Sigil, Athkatla or Baldurs Gate ?