Al-Zarqawi Dead

[Darque]

Personal experiences leave me firm in my beliefs.

 

Thanks anyway though

[Cantousent]

Ouch, our Commie friend is picking a fight on his first day back from hiatus.

 

The point isn't that we shouldn't be glad we got 'im before he got us. The point is that we should not revel in killing him. I'm sure you can see some of the wild ideas floated around in this thread. It's okay to be glad he's out of the picture, but we should then fixate on the means and methods of torturing him to death? We should lament the fact that we didn't get the chance to disembowel him and feed his entrails to dogs while he died? That, Commissar, is unhealthy.

 

I'm not sorry that he's gone. Hell, I think it's a worthy cause to celebrate that he's gone. I don't believe, and probably never will, that we should jump up and down because we killed someone. That might be brought on because of sheer relief, but indulging in some sort of perverse speculation on the types of torture you'd inflict does dehumanize you, whether you believe it or not.

[LoneWolf16]

Personal experiences leave me firm in my beliefs.

 

Thanks anyway though

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why?

 

I agree with Commie, so I'd just like to know...

[Commissar]

Ouch, our Commie friend is picking a fight on his first day back from hiatus.

 

The point isn't that we shouldn't be glad we got 'im before he got us.  The point is that we should not revel in killing him.  I'm sure you can see some of the wild ideas floated around in this thread.  It's okay to be glad he's out of the picture, but we should then fixate on the means and methods of torturing him to death?  We should lament the fact that we didn't get the chance to disembowel him and feed his entrails to dogs while he died?  That, Commissar, is unhealthy.

 

I'm not sorry that he's gone.  Hell, I think it's a worthy cause to celebrate that he's gone.  I don't believe, and probably never will, that we should jump up and down because we killed someone.  That might be brought on because of sheer relief, but indulging in some sort of perverse speculation on the types of torture you'd inflict does dehumanize you, whether you believe it or not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fantastic.

 

Or at least it would be, if it was a response to my post. Instead, you seem to have decided that because I don't think being happy over killing this asshat makes me just as bad as that particular asshat, that I condone the crap you're actually talking about in that little post of yours.

[Cantousent]

Too many thats. Anyhow, maybe I was just seeking clarification and understood you'd give it to me. At any rate, have a beer on me. :Eldar's giving Commissar a beer and patting him on the back icon:

[Darque]

Personal experiences leave me firm in my beliefs.

 

Thanks anyway though

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why?

 

I agree with Commie, so I'd just like to know...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Let's just say I've seen all types of people who have fought in wars, and have seen the affects on those who've done it for both sets of reason... and leave it at that.

[LoneWolf16]

*Snip*

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

*Snap*

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think he may have been referring to me and Lucius with that, but I could be wrong.

 

@Eldar: I'm not jumping up and down here, but I can't say I'm not diappointed he had a quick death. The whole "Eye for an Eye" thing really works for me, even though doing so leaves two people who're half blind.

 

@Commie: Relax, man...

 

Let's just say I've seen all types of people who have fought in wars, and have seen the affects on those who've done it for both sets of reason... and leave it at that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fine by me.

[Llyranor]

Justice != happy fun fun fun

[213374U]

The Baley is right there... nor do I think celebrating the death of anyone, however evil or supposedly "deserving", is big or clever. Hypocrisy is rife on this forum. And, unfortunately, there will be those that will make this man into a martyr either out of sheer stupidity and ignorance or as an excuse to further their own motives... his capture would have been much better for all concerned.

I, on the other hand am quite happy that this bastard got splattered over several yards. He had it coming, you know, what with his hazardous job and all. He was not only a terrorist, but also one that seemed to enjoy his work a bit too much. And regardless of what you say, it'll be difficult to find a replacement that is as bad as he was. It doesn't matter if he's martyred, because that martyrdom only means something to a handful (yes, a handful) of radicals that are too stupid to integrate in society and learn to live with the new times. People like that deserve whatever they get, and what they get is often a cluster bomb.

 

No, I'm not afraid like most of the others here to claim openly that I'm glad he's dead, and if I was stationed on Iraq, I'd probably celebrate (read: drink). The only thing I regret is that his family wasn't targeted as well. Maybe that would be a good incentive for those losers to find a real job. Hell, it worked for Saddam, didn't it?

 

But what I find most appalling of all is that you accuse anyone of hypocrisy. In case you have forgotten (or perhaps you never stopped to think about it) it is the death of men like this that sustains your precious state of welfare, among other things. Yes, it's so very easy to promptly take the moral high horse when some human waste or another is blasted to kingdom come thousands of miles from the comfy chair from which you write. Sorry, but the world is neither fair not egalitarian, and I have to choose, I'd much rather not get the raw end of the deal. The human being is not a kind creature at heart. So you wallow all you want in your grief for the death of men that would first rape you, then rape you again, and then behead you without thinking twice. In the meantime, there are people out there willing to prevent that from happening, fortunately for you.

 

I agree with you, though. It's a shame they didn't take him alive. I hear they have this leisure facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, that is just a delight to spend time in. People kill to go there!

 

EDIT: Good to have you back, Commie!

Edited June 9, 2006 by 213374U

[Darth Launch]

Being that I'm 100% for capital punishment when necessary, I happen to believe the opposite. "Democratic" is not an antonym for "Barbaric". There is a distinct difference between putting someone to death for murdering a family of six in their own home and slaughtering/raping a whole town of innocents for no other reason than because they're there.

 

That wasn't the point I was making with the Middle Ages bit. I was just using that to call to mind the fact that those two particular methods were more merciful and speedier than that of these ****ers.

 

Yes, I do know that atrocities take place everywhere. Were it up to me, each of those responsible in all cases would be given a wonderful lesson in the concept of "An Eye for An Eye". But it's not, so apparently, people like you should be thankful that's not the case.

 

You may know of his crimes, but to see it is another thing entirely.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fair enough. You're entitled to your beliefs, however "radical" they may come across to others. I don't support capital punishment at all, and I disagree with the whole "eye for an eye" thing simply because I was brought up believing that two wrongs don't make a right. Please don't take that as a personal attack on your upbringing, I don't stoop so low, and I happen to quite like you Lovewolf. However, "people like me"? What are you inferring? If you're going to turn this into a personal attack on me, then do so over PMs so as to not distract from the point of this thread.

 

Additionally, you cannot impose your standards and your beliefs on another, nor could I. You believe in corporal punishment because it was supposedly justified through the whole court process, however, did you consider that this man and others may also believe their actions are justified? I'm not excusing the terrible things this man and others have done, but nor can you justify or excuse corporal punishment to me (or people like me) either, which I consider equally radical.

 

I'm just as entitled to make my point about this topic and express my reaction to the said event, just as you all are.

 

I, on the other hand am quite happy that this bastard got splattered over several yards. He had it coming, you know, what with his hazardous job and all. He was not only a terrorist, but also one that seemed to enjoy his work a bit too much. And regardless of what you say, it'll be difficult to find a replacement that is as bad as he was. It doesn't matter if he's martyred, because that martyrdom only means something to a handful (yes, a handful) of radicals that are too stupid to integrate in society and learn to live with the new times. People like that deserve whatever they get, and what they get is often a cluster bomb.

 

No, I'm not afraid like most of the others here to claim openly that I'm glad he's dead, and if I was stationed on Iraq, I'd probably celebrate (read: drink). The only thing I regret is that his family wasn't targeted as well. Maybe that would be a good incentive for those losers to find a real job. Hell, it worked for Saddam, didn't it?

 

But what I find most appalling of all is that you accuse anyone of hypocrisy. In case you have forgotten (or perhaps you never stopped to think about it) it is the death of men like this that sustains your precious state of welfare, among other things. Yes, it's so very easy to promptly take the moral high horse when some human waste or another is blasted to kingdom come thousands of miles from the comfy chair from which you write. Sorry, but the world is neither fair not egalitarian, and I have to choose, I'd much rather not get the raw end of the deal. The human being is not a kind creature at heart. So you wallow all you want in your grief for the death of men that would first rape you, then rape you again, and then behead you without thinking twice. In the meantime, there are people out there willing to prevent that from happening, fortunately for you.

 

I agree with you, though. It's a shame they didn't take him alive. I hear they have this leisure facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, that is just a delight to spend time in. People kill to go there!

 

EDIT: Good to have you back, Commie! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I never said that I was not happy that he was gone. In fact, you should re-read my post as I agreed with Baley saying that I was relieved he was gone but I was not celebrating his death. I think it's somewhat naive to think that his martyrdom won't be on a large scale, maybe it won't, but you can't discount the strong possibility of it happening. And, unfortunately, he will be replaced, in one form or another. "There will always be a Hitler."

 

You're not a soldier stationed in Iraq. However, I do know soldiers (British ones) that are, and they were relieved but as far as I know, little celebration took place. Celebrating in a war zone is something that only happens in Hollywood and at the end of conflicts.

 

Again, you're mistaken to believe that I was sad or wallowing for this man's death. My point was that celebrating this man's death in such a frivolous manner only gives the impression that you are no better than them. I was not a part of any forum when the 9/11 attack occurred so I do not know what the general consensus would have been like in a forum like this, however, I recall seeing on the News images and videos of random people cheering and celebrating the attack in the streets. People were outraged and disgusted, as was I, and rightly so. However, how is this celebration any different? Yeh, those were innocent lives, but you have to remember that these people who were celebrating were ill-informed simple people, who have probably been told of the "evil America" all their lives, yet they were still scorned for their actions. Just because you're in your comfy chair and have the internet at your disposal does not excuse ignorance in the same way that it does for them. Regardless of whether you agree with me there or not, you're entitled to be appalled with what I said, just as I am entitled to be appalled at the celebration of a death. Maybe we should leave it at that?

[Dark Moth]

I agree with numbers 100% on this one. I too am glad to that he's been permanently removed from the gene pool. Don't forget, we're talking about a man who personally beheaded some of his own victims. Yes, I have seen Nick Berg's decapitation from start to finish. And I will tell you, when you see a guy's head being slowly severed, and his screams are practically drowned out by people singing and chanting around him, it gives you a glimpse into what these people are really like.

 

And DL, I know you don't like to celebrate the death of any human being, but unfortunately for all of us, this isn't Star Wars. I don't like to see any human die, either. I'd like to think that there's at least some trace of good in all humans. But as I said, this isn't an ideal world. Yes, you saw people dancing in the streets after 9/11. But this situation is an entirely different thing than from 9/11. Sure, it's death. Death is never good. But this is the death of a man who's own hands were stained with the blood of his own people. I'd say 99% of most people who died from the 9/11 attacks were innocent people whose only crime was going to work on the wrong day of the year.

 

But I do also agree that he could have been used for information and this death could turn him into a martyr. However, as we have seen with people like Saddam, imprisoning someone instead of killing them off right away can cause a lot of complications. The man could have done just what Saddam did and only use his imprisonment as a podium for his extremist views. Another thing about his death is that he at least didn't go out "heroically", fighting off American soldiers to his last breath. His death came quickly and he died the way many other Iraqis have died by his hands. As for information, I'm not too worried about that. Yes, we could have really used him for information. But for starters we can't be sure if he would have cracked or not, and the U.S. is getting nearly 10x the amount of tips we were getting only a year ago. Will that make a difference? we'll have to see.

 

But as many have said, we'll just have to wait and see if the situation gets better or worse. Anyway, here's Michael Berg's reaction to his death.

Edited June 9, 2006 by Mothman

[213374U]

I think it's somewhat naive to think that his martyrdom won't be on a large scale, maybe it won't, but you can't discount the strong possibility of it happening. And, unfortunately, he will be replaced, in one form or another. "There will always be a Hitler."

You are entitled to your opinion, but the massive participation in the last elections shows how marginal support for those groups is. So it's not just that li'l ol' me is happy with this guy's death, it's that a great many people in Iraq are going to be sleeping easier from now on. The man's only going to be a martyr for like-minded fellows, that with a bit of luck, will share his fate.

 

And yeah, "there will always be a Hitler", but after Hitler (the one and only), there hasn't been anyone like him, thankfully.

 

 

I was not a part of any forum when the 9/11 attack occurred so I do not know what the general consensus would have been like in a forum like this, however, I recall seeing on the News images and videos of random people cheering and celebrating the attack in the streets. People were outraged and disgusted, as was I, and rightly so. However, how is this celebration any different?

You've got to be kidding me, because you can't seriously expect me to believe that you see any similarities.

I'm going to break one of those unwritten rules of teh intarwebs and make a "Hitler" kind of argument, seeing as you did it yourself. So, was it wrong for allied WWII soldiers to celebrate Hitler's death and the defeat of the Third Reich? If not, how is it wrong to celebrate this butcher's?

 

On the other hand, people celebrating 9/11 is akin to SS officers celebrating the last batch of gassed prisoners.

 

This guy brought it upon himself, it's that simple. It's not a matter of "an eye for an eye", either, as this entire business didn't stem from the need to bring him to justice, as much as it did from the need to stop him from doing his trade and cripple his operation as much as possible. I don't believe in "an eye for an eye", either.

 

 

Yeh, those were innocent lives, but you have to remember that these people who were celebrating were ill-informed simple people, who have probably been told of the "evil America" all their lives, yet they were still scorned for their actions. Just because you're in your comfy chair and have the internet at your disposal does not excuse ignorance in the same way that it does for them.

So now they can't be held responsible for their actions just because they are spoonfed propaganda consistently? Sorry, but being misinformed isn't the same as being children. The problem is that it's much easier to vent one's frustration in form of rage at some distant and very abstract Evil Empire, than to try and deal with one's own shortcomings. It's a sickening and rather pathetic case of collective victim complex.

 

EDIT:I saw on the news that they tried to get him alive, but he was too entrenched and they feared he would escape so an airstrike was called in.

Edited June 9, 2006 by 213374U

[LoneWolf16]

Fair enough. You're entitled to your beliefs, however "radical" they may come across to others. I don't support capital punishment at all, and I disagree with the whole "eye for an eye" thing simply because I was brought up believing that two wrongs don't make a right. Please don't take that as a personal attack on your upbringing, I don't stoop so low, and I happen to quite like you Lovewolf. However, "people like me"? What are you inferring? If you're going to turn this into a personal attack on me, then do so over PMs so as to not distract from the point of this thread.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I never meant "you people" as a personal attack, though reading it again, it sort of comes off that way. More like, "people who think as you do", or, "those having an opinion on the subject that directly opposes mine". And happy to hear I'm liked, especially by so idealistic of a woman. :">

 

I agree there's no real hope of changing people's minds when it comes to so sensitive of a subject, but, as you said, we're entitled to our opinions. Though mine isn't all that "radical" or at least not more than yours.

 

Additionally, you cannot impose your standards and your beliefs on another, nor could I. You believe in corporal punishment because it was supposedly justified through the whole court process, however, did you consider that this man and others may also believe their actions are justified? I'm not excusing the terrible things this man and others have done, but nor can you justify or excuse corporal punishment to me (or people like me) either, which I consider equally radical.

 

I'm just as entitled to make my point about this topic and express my reaction to the said event, just as you all are.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, I know I can't, nor do I want to. Not my place to impose such things on others, though I can damn well do my best to give them another view to think about.

 

The overall point I'm making is that there's a difference, a very real (And I thought obvious) one; Corporal punishment leads to the deaths of murderers. The actions these bastards take leads to the deaths of innocents. I don't care what they think is justified, the fact of the matter is that it's not. I'm usually all for dissenting opinions, but on something like this I have to draw a line.

 

Then again, neither of us is in a position to change how things work, so it's all just idle chatter anyway.

 

And I know you're entitled to. I wasn't calling that into question. I'm just trying to debate is all, key word being "trying" (And failing too).

 

About the whole 9/11 comparison...Mr. 1337 covered it.

[Judge Hades]

I am for the death penalty for 1st, 2nd degree murderers and serial rapists/child molesteers. Also I believe that the guilty has only 3 appeals, which is done quickly, so the sentence is conducted within a year of the guilty verdict. Death should be a single large caliber bullet to the back of the head.

Edited June 9, 2006 by Judge Hades

[LoneWolf16]

I am for the death penalty for 1st, 2nd degree murderers and serial rapists/child molesteers.  Also I believe that the guilty has only 3 appeals, which is done quickly, so the sentence is conducted within a year of the guilty verdict.  Death should be a single large caliber bullet to the back of the head.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree, but the punishment would depend on the crime.

 

And for child molesters/killers/rapists...forcibly remove the genitals with a pencil sharpener...then the bullet thing. Explanation: I have this strange thing where when a child is harmed, I tend to get a bit.......shall we say, vindictive with the punishment.

Edited June 9, 2006 by LoneWolf16

[Darth Launch]

You are entitled to your opinion, but the massive participation in the last elections shows how marginal support for those groups is. So it's not just that li'l ol' me is happy with this guy's death, it's that a great many people in Iraq are going to be sleeping easier from now on. The man's only going to be a martyr for like-minded fellows, that with a bit of luck, will share his fate.

 

And yeah, "there will always be a Hitler", but after Hitler (the one and only), there hasn't been anyone like him, thankfully.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not saying that it's just you, or select forum members, that are happy with this man's death. I, too, feel a sense of relief that he is gone. In fact, I should be happiest about this whole thing, more so than you (as I'm asssuming that you're not muslim or many other forum members are) since this awful man not only persecuted people of my own religion, but also acted as a terrible representation of what our faith is supposed to be about. My point was that there is a chance that the consequences of his death may be more bad than good. Of course, I hope that my pessimism is just that, and proven wrong, I just feel that such a celebration may be ill-timed or too soon. Let's just hope I'm wrong about that

 

The "Hitler" thing was really just my way of saying that a crazed, evil person can easily re-emerge, but that's just my pessimism again.

 

You've got to be kidding me, because you can't seriously expect me to believe that you see any similarities.

I'm going to break one of those unwritten rules of teh intarwebs and make a "Hitler" kind of argument, seeing as you did it yourself. So, was it wrong for allied WWII soldiers to celebrate Hitler's death and the defeat of the Third Reich? If not, how is it wrong to celebrate this butcher's?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The point I was drawing on was not that there is any similarity between the two situations, as there is not, but the fact that celebration of the death of human life shouldn't occur so mindlessly, be it an innocent life or otherwise. I apologise if I didn't make that clear.

 

So now they can't be held responsible for their actions just because they are spoonfed propaganda consistently? Sorry, but being misinformed isn't the same as being children. The problem is that it's much easier to vent one's frustration in form of rage at some distant and very abstract Evil Empire, than to try and deal with one's own shortcomings. It's a sickening and rather pathetic case of collective victim complex.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, they shouldn't be excused at all. My point was that I believe (and others) that the celebration of the death of human life is not right or justifiable, whether you're a villager in the Middle East or a person sat at a computer.

 

I don't see much more point in arguing on this thread, when, essentially, we agree that his man's death is a momentary relief to the conflict in Iraq.

 

The overall point I'm making is that there's a difference, a very real (And I thought obvious) one; Corporal punishment leads to the deaths of murderers. The actions these bastards take leads to the deaths of innocents. I don't care what they think is justified, the fact of the matter is that it's not. I'm usually all for dissenting opinions, but on something like this I have to draw a line.

 

Then again, neither of us is in a position to change how things work, so it's all just idle chatter anyway. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm unconvinced about corporal punishment, simply because I believe taking a person's life, whether they've committed a crime or not, is something we're not in a position to decide impartially or entitled to, but I know it makes sense to many others, such as yourself.

 

Like Mothie said, there's not much else to do but wait to see what happens in Iraq as a result of this, and let's hope it's for the best

[Judge Hades]

That would be considered uncivilized. Justice, without malice, would require a swift death not agonizing torture.

[LoneWolf16]

That would be considered uncivilized.  Justice, without malice, would require a swift death not agonizing torture.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It was uncivilized to rape/murder/molest the child.

[kirottu]

death penalty

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Now this thread only needs: abortion, z-axis, gay couples and adoption, cloning, weighty gold, sub vs dub, dropping a-bombs to japan, mounts, real time vs turn based, and of course...

Edited June 9, 2006 by kirottu

[astr0creep]

I'd like to know who the informant was that gave away Zarky's position and received 25 millionsUS$.

 

What if it's Osama. Or another terrorist(very probable?). Would that be considered "terrorism support"?

[Judge Hades]

It was uncivilized to rape/murder/molest the child. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, but it is best not to sink down to that base level.

[Llyranor]

Welcome to humanity.

[Judge Hades]

I am fully aware that humanity is not ciilized.

[taks]

weighty gold

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

oh.my.gawd.

 

are you trying to start a riot in here?

 

taks

[Lucius]

Lol Osama showing up to cash in his reward.