The "heresy" thread part 2

[Ginthaeriel]

Posted by Azarkon

 

The unique aspect of RPG gameplay, I think, comes down to *player character development* followed by the utility of this development in the RPG world. <snip>

Agreed. Now that I think about it, you're absolutely right: I can remember even when replaying PS:T for the third time, I would try and develop TNO to the max- turn him into a god. I would try and recall every single stat boost I could nab along the way, save copper like a miser, and plan out my character so that he could hand the Transcendant One's ass back on a platter.

 

But... as I've said before in my original rant... isn't "min maxing" just mathematical masturbation? "Wow! You managed to crank out as much Base Attack Bonuses possible from a system with limited sets of rules! Now run along and play some Sudoku."

The obvious next question, then, is why PC development is attractive. One hypothesis is that it taps into the psychological affinity for growth and advancement inherent to human beings. Whether that's guesswork or theory is meat for another thread, but the certainty of the RPG's allure cannot be denied, I think.

I agree wholeheartedly. In fact, that's the argument on which my theory for the addictive quality of MMORPGs rests (I believe I've written something pertaining to that elsewhere) but that's neither here nor there. Needless to say, I am pretty condemning of MMOs.

 

The problem is, I fear that the same reasons that I condemn MMOs may apply to my favored... or, maybe even soon to be ex-favored, genre too: CRPGs. The last thing I want to be is a hypocrite.

When you pose the question: are RPGs a waste of time, the first retort that comes to mind is to contradict the utilitarian stance (aren't all forms of entertainment a waste of time?)

I was going to respond to all those points by saying that I feel entertainment is most certainly NOT a waste of time. We have only seventy years in this life, and then we die. Any accomplishments we make are going to be forgotten, give or take a few centuries. The best thing we can do to be happy is to entertain ourselves. In fact, perhaps in that way, entertainment is LESS of a waste of time than work. But I digress.

 

My original point was that CRPGs were NOT worth the time investment, given the entertainment that is gotten in return. It's like spending fifty dollars on a mcdonalds hamburger when you can get a kobe beef filet mignon for five cents.

For despite the great changes that's come to the genre, despite its players being dazzled by all the cinematic techniques that's come to dominate the genre, the RPG has kept its soul. And this soul, dating back to the very first RPG and which will endure till the last, is a stream that's never run dry.

Hm. That was quite a stirring bit of rhetoric, but I am afraid it has not yet destroyed my doubts.

 

The statement that RPGs "have soul" is a pretty obtuse and vague statement itself. Going back to the idea that RPGs are fun because they appeal to our inherent desire to grow and develop... isn't that kind of already existant in real life? Reflex games and sports appeal to our more violent, aggressive urges now that we as a species have evolved beyond the need for hunting for food. Books, adventure games, and so forth appeal to certain emotions and sensibilities that cannot be brought forth in our normal, everyday lives (such as the thrill of a new romance when one is already married)... but self-improvement?

 

Isn't life itself the ultimate RPG, after all? Self-improvement is certainly not lacking in our everyday lives- pick up new habits, dress better, eat better, take better care of yourself... Isn't it kind of sad to think that one can pride themselves on how much time it took them to get a level 26 paladin, but neglect their real life duties? Isn't it frightening how MMORPGs are the games that people die playing after nonstop 24 hour grinds? Isn't it scary that these are the games which need to have disclaimers that you shouldn't forget your real life duties?

 

Maybe RPG gamers are stereotyped as "nerdy" or "loserish" because the idea is that we lack the ability to improve our own lives, thus we turn to improving the lives of an imaginary character in a game, with definable progress. You can SEE the level of your character going up digit by digit, but you may not see how your own life improves. If entertainment fills up what is lacking in our own lives, and RPGs give us the sense of accomplishment, development and growth... does that mean that our lives are lacking accomplishments, development and growth? Do we escape to RPGs because we are stuck in "Level 0" in reality? Because that's really scary.

Edited May 25, 2006 by Ginthaeriel

[Musopticon?]

Thanks for the restart, Gin. Fio told me to do it myself if I was so interested, when I asked for pruning and reopening, but I forgot the whole thing.

 

This subject deserves a discussion and while I have nothing worthwile to add, yet, I find that discussion interesting so far.

Edited May 25, 2006 by Musopticon?

[213374U]

Yeah, discussions about the futility of life and how irrelevant is anything we do are always interesting. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go drown myself in booze.

[Musopticon?]

 

Really, there might be an outcry of angst sooner or later on the thread. I think reading 20 pages of discussion over semantics is worth it if I see that burst.

[Moose]

we are stuck in "Level 0" in reality? Because that's really scary.

 

Omg, we're stuck in level 0 ... But maybe if we pray to the DM and ritually slit our wrists we'll ascend! You first Ginthaeriel... tell me if you get magic missile.

[Tigranes]

Naw, he'd take levels in Orc.

[Cantousent]

I never actually addressed your post directly, Ginth. I disagree with it most strenuously, but I've scorned you enough over time that I just couldn't see engaging you in another extended discussion.

 

I wonder, and this isn't a flame, I'm honestly curious, if you really are just trying to trawl the waters. Maybe you want to see how many folks come out of the woodwork to defend CRPGs.

 

I've known your opinions regarding MMORPGs for some time. Fair enough. When you say that a genre is not to you taste, that's fair enough. When you deride others for enjoying the genre, that's questionable. However, when you write things like:

 

"Maybe RPG gamers are stereotyped as "nerdy" or "loserish" because the idea is that we lack the ability to improve our own lives, thus we turn to improving the lives of an imaginary character in a game, with definable progress. You can SEE the level of your character going up digit by digit, but you may not see how your own life improves. If entertainment fills up what is lacking in our own lives, and RPGs give us the sense of accomplishment, development and growth... does that mean that our lives are lacking accomplishments, development and growth? Do we escape to RPGs because we are stuck in "Level 0" in reality? Because that's really scary."

 

I have to wonder about your line of reasoning. Improve our lives?

 

Ginth, I have a good home, a great wife, a wonderful family, tons of friends (the "real-life" version), and no excuse for complaint. How is it that you get the final word on whether or not I've improved my life or whether my particular tastes, in gaming or otherwise, are legitimate? It's a lot of responsibility to settle on your own shoulders.

 

It takes real balls to come stand on the soap-box and preach to the unwashed masses about the futility of their endeavors. That's especially true when I must take for granted that you are the better judge for the worth of my every endeavor.

 

As far as this "stereotype" is concerned, the activities that you describe, "pick up new habits, dress better, eat better, take better care of yourself," are applicable more to the Sims than to CRPGs, and yet the one area upon which many Sims and CRPG fans can agree is that Sims is not a role-playing game. This is a point on which I disagree, but it moves us away from the singular notion of CRPGs.

 

Ultimately, I don't think you're trolling. I think you're misguided. While I dont' know the source of that misguidance, I will say that you can and should work past it.

 

Oh, it's not that you should return to the CRPG fold. It's just that you should worry far less about what's wrong with the genre and more about what makes you happy. Don't stay awake at night fretting over how I have fun. Find your own fun and own it.

 

I know you, in your online persona, to be forebearing, calm, and friendly. In a sense, this whole board, built up from the personas we create, is nothing but a large RPG played in the internet from our computers. ...And it's as worthy a waste of time as any other. Maybe a damn sight better than most.

 

Finally, you seek refuge in the nihilistic argument of waste, and yet you would cherry-pick those wastes that are wose than others. If all life ends in nothing, then no waste is any better or worse than another. It's all a waste. I don't believe that and I hope, deep down, you don't either. You argue for something because you don't believe everything is truly pointless.

[Darque]

I disagree with the original original post from the original thread because it's completely without merit.

 

Games are just another form of entertainment.

 

It's a person's right to decide HOW they use their time, and telling everyone that they're wasting their time on something THEY decided to do for enjoyment is a pretty arrogant statement... in my opinion.

 

Saying "if you want a story, you should just read a book, because games are a waste of time" is like saying....

 

....go read a book, movies are a waste of time.

 

....go read a book, your life is a waste of time.

 

....go read a book, blah blah blahbidy blah...

[kirottu]

When I want stories I come here... Drama, romance, comedy, Obsidian forums.

[Cantousent]

Forums, the soap operas of the computer geeks.

[Darque]

When I want stories I come here... Drama, romance, comedy, Obsidian forums. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Plus they're a free mmo

[Llyranor]

If you have enough time to ponder the intrinsic values of CRPGs, maybe you should go volunteer at a hospital or something.

[WinterSun]

Reading a book can be just as much a waste of time as playing games. Anyone read the Da Vinci Code? That's time I could've spent playing Far Cry.

[Darque]

Reading a book can be just as much a waste of time as playing games. Anyone read the Da Vinci Code? That's time I could've spent playing Far Cry.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Ginthaeriel]

I never actually addressed your post directly, Ginth.  I disagree with it most strenuously, but I've scorned you enough over time that I just couldn't see engaging you in another extended discussion.

 

I wonder, and this isn't a flame, I'm honestly curious, if you really are just trying to trawl the waters.  Maybe you want to see how many folks come out of the woodwork to defend CRPGs.

Actually, now that I think about it, I'm not really posting to get anyone riled up. I'm just sort of talking to myself out loud.

Ginth, I have a good home, a great wife, a wonderful family, tons of friends (the "real-life" version), and no excuse for complaint.  How is it that you get the final word on whether or not I've improved my life or whether my particular tastes, in gaming or otherwise, are legitimate?  It's a lot of responsibility to settle on your own shoulders.

Well, maybe the question I asked sounded rhetorical, but it really wasn't. I wasn't stating that everyone who played RPGs needed to improve their lives... rather, I pondered. I guess my ponderings were wrong then, given your example.

 

Maybe, to take the discussion another way, the person who likes RPGs like them because they've accomplished everything possible in their own lives. Perhaps they no longer *can* improve in reality, because they are the best already, or have everything they want. And so, to sustain that uplifting feeling of self-improvement, they play RPGs.

 

I don't know. I'm just trying to figure out the significance of Azarkon's theory that RPGs are fun because they give us the sense of achievement.

It takes real balls to come stand on the soap-box and preach to the unwashed masses about the futility of their endeavors.  That's especially true when I must take for granted that you are the better judge for the worth of my every endeavor.

I apologize if I sounded preachy. Honestly, I don't want to get anyone to quit CRPGs. If anything, I'm looking for someone to convince ME not to quit CRPGs.

Ultimately, I don't think you're trolling.  I think you're misguided.  While I dont' know the source of that misguidance, I will say that you can and should work past it.

 

Oh, it's not that you should return to the CRPG fold.  It's just that you should worry far less about what's wrong with the genre and more about what makes you happy.  Don't stay awake at night fretting over how I have fun.  Find your own fun and own it.

I think you're absolutely right. I think I am misguided. The thing is, certain... conflicts in my own life have put my idea of what is "my fun" in jeopardy, and indeed, has made me start to challenge a whole lot of other things about myself. That may sound really, really emo, but... hmm, I suppose I don't have an excuse. I am being whiny, emo, pathetic and annoying. Oh well.

[Llyranor]

Maybe, to take the discussion another way, the person who likes RPGs like them because they've accomplished everything possible in their own lives. Perhaps they no longer *can* improve in reality, because they are the best already, or have everything they want. And so, to sustain that uplifting feeling of self-improvement, they play RPGs.

Hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahaha

 

...

 

Ok.

 

Ask yourself why you play games at all. Is it the safe environment through which to experience worlds through which you could not (or would not want to) in RL? Maybe you like saving the world or being a gangster, but you don't have to become a cop. Is it the ability to interact with such worlds, a notion unheard of in other mediums? What do CRPGs bring to the table? Worlds in which one can interact with, in which one can drive one's own narrative, get away from the real world. Some people like to live their own fantasies in games, and CRPGs can certainly accomplish that. You can be that big hunky pirate that all the chicks dig. It's the very concept of roleplaying. Sad? Is it? I don't completely disagree, though I don't appreciate CRPGs in the same manner as many others might. Take Oblivion. Unlike PnP, it allows you 'complete' 'freedom' to do whatever you want whenever you want at your own leisure. Go jump in a lake, go pick some flowers. Some people like that, it's soothing. I'm not an Oblivion fan, and I don't like sandbox games that much, but I can certainly understand, appreciate and respect that.

 

Why do *I* play CRPGs? I play it for the concept of interactive storytelling. Why wouldn't I rather read a book? Because I'm not a passive bystander. Interactivity allows for much greater involvement when done right. Few games have managed to really do it *right*, but that has more to do with the relative immaturity of the industry than it has with the medium itself. Despite PST's many flaws, I was able to identify with TNO in much greater ways than I probably would have had it just been a novel. Why wouldn't I rather go play PnP? Because Eldar hates us. That, and it doesn't allow for the same form of structure storytelling. Imagine a DM trying to convey the message from PST to his/her players. Could work, but very limited audience.

 

That being said, I don't find the current conventional gameplay too compelling. That is more a design issue than a CRPG issue. Too much dumbing down, too much catering to the common denominator. A proper CRPG combat system can provide unsurpassed tactical depth. Don't even try to pull that RTS BS if you're going to talk about shallow gameplay.

 

The question, then, is why do *you* play CRPGs? Managing stats? Or interacting with the world? Managing stats is a means to an end. When you turn it into an end in and of itself, that's when you start asking yourself existential questions? *Why* exactly did I spend 2000 hrs just to bring my char to lvl 60? :(

 

As for the RL analogy, do you solve murders in RL? Do you go out to sea on great adventures? Your 'why aren't I being productive?????' applies to all non-productive activities. It has nothing to do with CRPGs. If you find your life lacking, it's not because of CRPGs. Go out there and do something.

 

Don't think the loser who spends 80 hrs a week on WoW isn't sad. But that's the person's problem, not the game itself (why am I defending WoW????). Moderation is key.

 

Balance, in all things.

[Darque]

I apologize if I sounded preachy. Honestly, I don't want to get anyone to quit CRPGs. If anything, I'm looking for someone to convince ME not to quit CRPGs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Maybe you just need a break, to get some perspective.

[Judge Hades]

This discussion is stupid and pathetic. You either game or you don't. You either find gaming fun or you don't. If you don't find gaming fun then don't game. If you find gaming fun and worthwhile, then game.

 

Simple as that. What is here to discuss? Absolutely nothing.

 

If oyu don't want to quit then don't. If you want to quit then do so. STOP WHINING ABOUT IT.

Edited May 26, 2006 by Judge Hades

[Fenghuang]

Hades I think his hypothetical situations resound with your actual life just a little too much for your own comfort.

[Judge Hades]

Whatever, F-Man.

 

I don't deal with hypothetical situations. I deal with actual situations. I game because I find it fun. If I load up a game that I don't find fun I quit it and move on to the next game. Fun or not fun. That is all that games are.

[StillLife]

I think you're absolutely right. I think I am misguided. The thing is, certain... conflicts in my own life have put my idea of what is "my fun" in jeopardy, and indeed, has made me start to challenge a whole lot of other things about myself. That may sound really, really emo, but... hmm, I suppose I don't have an excuse. I am being whiny, emo, pathetic and annoying. Oh well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Questioning how you spend your free time and the management of your priorities is an essential part of being human. Nothing inherently whiney about it...well, unless you frequently go on public message boards with your pontifications.

 

Anyway, humans like to dream and engage in fantasies within the comforts of their own mind. It's very natural as it allows us opportunities to think about things we would'nt ordinarily do and even grow and learn about ourselves and the world around us in many ways. Video games -- more specifically, RPGs -- are just an extension of that. They're interactive daydreams with a slightly physical form. It's no wonder people enjoy them.

 

You're unnecessarily reading too much into the psychology of why some individuals enjoy RPGs in particular. Everyone's different and there could be a huge number of essentially mundane reasons. The fact you can rarely get two posters on a forum like this to even agree on what kinds of RPGs they like is evidence of the diversity RPG fans have in what they find appealing about a game.

 

Of course, like Llyranor suggested with the Dak'kon quote: everything in moderation. You breathe too much at once, you're going to hyperventilate. Eat too much, you're going to get fat and out of shape. Play too many video games? You'll end up letting something else that is important fall to the wayside and dealing with the consequences for it. Fail to allow yourself leisure time? You'll go nuts, have a nervous breakdown, climb a water tower with a sniper rifle or have a heart attack and die at 30 like all those Japanese business men back in the 90's.

Edited May 26, 2006 by StillLife

[Lilandra]

Crpgs are fun like anything else someone would do in their free time. I play games, crpgs in particular, to relax, have fun and be involved in a story and character that is more exciting than my everyday mundane life.

 

If you have a problem with it, why are you at a crpg forum board?

[Judge Hades]

Exactomundo!

[Musopticon?]

See, you angsty internet personas, Gin doesn't have a problem with your interest over crpgs. On the contrary, he just wants to question whether they are really worth his time or should he just be off doing something constructive, like living in the real world.

 

If you get annoyed, offended or feel that it's somehow pointed to you, I think you, and I'm sorry if this comes across as rude, are rather shallow. No offence, but this thread really is about Gins lack of faith, not your navel.

Edited May 26, 2006 by Musopticon?

[Llyranor]

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.