death rules

[Volourn]

No, no it doesn't.

[Llyranor]

lol rez

[Volourn]

lol Rez doesn't make death temporary. Death is permenant. Rez is not just soemthing you can flick your wrist , and have it done (well, it shouldn't be anyways).

 

99% of the time someone dies theya re dead even in the Realms. Rez is very costly in terms of gold, experience, and so on.

 

Not to mention there are many ways to make ressuretcion IMPOSSIBLE to use.

Both raise dead, and ressurection have time limits. They both need parts of the body (even a small part) so if a companion dies and you are forced to run, you'll likely never be able to raise them.

 

And, npc clerics don't tend to cast it on other sjust because they pay money, and most definitely not on those who view things differently. Well.. games like Bg series don't count which makes that trivial.

 

Real death, and real ressurection are awesome! (real in the sense of fantasy land, lol_

 

R00fles!

[StillLife]

lol rez

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Even if it's possible to rez, if it's enough of a pain in the ass, it keeps you wanting to avoid death at all costs and keeps the game challenging. When you can carelessly slop through a difficult battle safe in the knowledge everything will be ok after it's over and you can just go about your merry way, it removes a great deal of the thrill and challenge.

[Ellester]

It matters what game you are talking about NWN had staffs of resurrection everywhere so it made dying meaningless. Bg1 had expensive temples where one could resurrect. you had to carry back your companions equipment and spend all of your loot just to resurrect someone. toee is similar there was one resurrection wand but it was so expensive i never bought it and played the game without resurrection. NWN kinda took the fun out of getting a party member killed, as it was too easy to resurrect your companion.

Edited May 23, 2006 by Ellester

[Volourn]

Yup. And, BIO didn't redo that mistake. Even in HOTU, resurection (outside of the gift rez rod at the start) wasn't easily come by unless you were a cleric. And, it's one of the things SOU did well outside of ch1.... (though you techincally couldn't die in ch1 since you were ported back to base ). But, even in the OC, at least your companion *could* die. None of this 'he's just unconcious'.

 

But, still, both the NWN OC and the KOTOR way are far from ideal in a D&D game. Acceptable in the KOTORs; but not here.

 

Game over.

Edited May 23, 2006 by Volourn

[Gromnir]

am not sure that this poll answers any real question o' value.

 

the problem with the way death works in most d&d pc centric games is that the game is over when the pc dies.... which makes sense. imagine playing a game where you carries 'round the corpse of the pc, but the npcs continue leaderless up to and including the final and inevitable battle with the UBG (ultimate bad guy.) kinda wacky. makes even more sense in a game likes kotor2 or nwn2 where all dialogues is channeled through the pc... use pc's diplomacy or other skill or attribute to determine outcomes of dialogues. kotor 2 allowed pcs to generate hps at a phenomenal rate, so were less problematic, but d&d not seems to work that way.

 

take focus off of a pc and death becomes less problematic... regardless of rules used. party members, being interchangable, can be allowed to die or be resurected after some considerable 'mount of time... but not works so well with with a specific pc that is focus of story.

 

now personally we like Gromnir rules re d&d death. we uses the d&d bleeding rules, but we also makes so that characters becomes less effective as they lose hps. characters that is suffering massive damage becomes less effective in combat til they has been attended to by healing or heal spells. there is a feat line that also allows characters to stay useful in combat longer... a feat line which rogues gets for free btw. however, even if one uses Gromnir's superior system, one still must confront the problems o' a pc centric sp crpg. when the pc character dies, how does you deal?

 

toee did an okie dokie job with implementation of d&d wounding and dying rules... and we is just fine with 'em. would be tougher to pull off with real time, but we likes d&d just fine. the problem remains that you gotta deal with what does happen when the pc "dies." is death permanent? can game continue once the pc has died? if so, how long can such a game continue and how does you handle gameplay mechanics w/o a pc? etc.

 

the kotor method works well enough... after combat is over your fallen party mates bounce up with 1 hp, or some such similar result. healing is still mighty useful in such a game, but raise dead and resurrection becomes useless.

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Volourn]

"toee did an okie dokie job with implementation of d&d wounding and dying rules... and we is just fine with 'em. would be tougher to pull off with real time"

 

Meh. These rules worked well enough in NWN (not used in the OC) as well so it most defeinitely cna work in 'real time'... 6 seconds per round in real time gives you alot of time to patch up your teammates.

[Hurlshort]

So Volourn, are you saying having perma-death is more important than having a good story? I can honestly say that the most important thing in any game I play is the storyline. But that's me, I know some people prefer more action and less story. Sure, I read books too. I like both.

 

I just don't think a game should be handicapped by it's death penalty. If a realistic death system works within the story, hurrah, but I would rather see death get the cut than a good story.

[alanschu]

Don't get sucked into his slippery slope/straw man argument!

[Volourn]

"So Volourn, are you saying having perma-death is more important than having a good story? I can honestly say that the most important thing in any game I play is the storyline."

 

I think it depends on the game, actually. In some games ala FF then ya the story should come first and the way they usually handle death (ala KOTOR) is just fine.

 

But, in DnD, the story should be written with that in mind. PST, and the Bg series both have some of the best stories in games yet they all allow joinable npcs to die permenately.

 

You cna have a story focused game withoyt having an npc so entwined that the story becomes meaningless. In fatc, if your story in a game is so hinged on one particular character (outside of the PC, that is) than your story is weakened, imo.

 

Yoshimo is a great exmaple of this. He's important in a particular plot point yet BIO managed to write around it in an intelligent way. They didn't do so well with Imoen in Irenicus' Dunegon; but they did a passable job (have her run away/disseappear when she is close to 'dying')...

 

 

I think a good writer - and Obsidian surely has those - can write a good story without being so dependent on some joinable npc.

[Dark_Raven]

I liked the way in BG that occasionally a party member would get completely banjo'ed into a gazillion wet chunks and be impossible to resurrect. Frustrating certainly, but not bad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I liked that. It was one of those things that mad BG amusing.

[Calax]

I guess mine would be "special"

 

you die... because your character has so much power, you explode and cause everyone else to die.

[Dark_Raven]

Explode into chunks?

[Kaftan Barlast]

I liked it in Fallout2 where youd accidentally mow down your entire party with the Vindicator and theyd all gib.. huh huh huh.. that was awesome

 

 

and as long as you have SAVE/LOAD, death is actually completely pointless

[Judge Hades]

Anyone who thinks that you can't have a good story with permadeath is an idiot. Seriously. You can have a good story with permadeath. As I recall Fallout 1, Fallout 2, Ultima 4, BG 1, BG2, and a host of other CRPGs had good stories to them and had permadeath. Only brainless noobs that want their hands held cry like a lil' child against permadeath.

Edited May 23, 2006 by Judge Hades

[Dark_Raven]

I liked it in Fallout2 where youd accidentally mow down your entire party with the Vindicator and theyd all gib.. huh huh huh.. that was awesome

 

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It was.

[StillLife]

For the camp that only plays games for the story, RPGs just oughtta get right to it and provide an invincible mode, rather than dumbing down combat in games any further to placate them. Maybe even a feature to skip ahead through combat areas entirely.

[Krookie]

KotOR FTW.

[Kaftan Barlast]

You can have a story, yes. But you cant have a story that relies heavily on characters in your party since they could die, and then you would loose a huge chunk of the story and the game would suck.

[Haitoku]

You can have a story, yes. But you cant have a story that relies heavily on characters in your party since they could die, and then you would loose a huge chunk of the story and the game would suck.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I was about to post something like that.

 

I don't know much story is involved in the NPC allies in NWN2, if they are worked in really well I would rather have KOTOR type system.

 

However, if they have very vague reasons for joining you and are expendable... I would like to see a BG approach... I also like the idea of being able to accidently kill your own allies... Fallout did that well.

[Atreides]

Permanent death is meaningless with reload. Early on people reload when things go wrong. Later on people cast Ressurect or pay whatever it costs at a temple if they don't feel like reloading. Plus there are bodybag items now so it won't be a lot of work picking up tons of stuff, maybe only distributing weight.

 

When permanent death really matters, like when it's so high level that people that matter get Incinerated or chunked past -10 hp you'll almost certainly see people reloading.

 

It's meaningless with reload.

[Darque]

It's meaningless with reload.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That is a good point.

[Dark_Raven]

It's meaningless with reload.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That is a good point.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No really. What is the point in playing if you die, which means you lose in the end.

[Darque]

It's meaningless with reload.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That is a good point.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No really. What is the point in playing if you die, which means you lose in the end.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Challenge.

 

Not to mention forcing the player to use their brain for once.