how short is too short?

[Gromnir]

let us try to keeps this on topic for a few seconds.

 

"On the other hand, it's only been a couple of days. Maybe he does plan on shedding more light on the situation, but he's waiting for better information or more clarity on his end."

 

to try and get us back on topic...

 

our thinking, such as it is, goes something like this:

 

as other developers has noted, bis/obsidian giving out estimates 'bout gameplay length is doomed. can't win. they has suffered for such hubris in past. fergie ignored this harsh lesson and did a less than wise thing.

 

so, now what can he do? confirm that he thinks gameplay is 20 hours? obviously he not want that given feedbacks so far. is not an uncertainty 'bout hours better than a certainty that we gets only 20?

 

he could also says that he thinks nwn2 gots more than 20 hours of gameplay... in which case he is faced with another credibility obstacle. were he telling the truth to the Germans or to us? fergie not got best record with board honesty as it is.

 

fergie coulds get on the boards and admit that he gots pretty much 0 idea 'bout nwn2 playable hours... admit he were talking out his arse to the germans. unfortunately that solution makes fergie looks like a clown don't it? oh sure, such a response would probably solve most concerns, but it would require fergie to sacrifice ego.

 

fergie probably just wants this issue to go away. already this thread is falling to pieces, and the mod heavy community at bioware doesn't seems to give a damn 'bout the hours anyways... not as long as they gets a toolset. so fergie is probably gonna sit backs and let this thing play itself out a little longer... hopes you people gets distracted by some other concern or non-issue...

 

you know what? Gromnir ain't gonna let that happen. am gonna put the topic in our signature if we have to, but is no way in hell that we is simply gonna let the epidemic ADD we gots 'round here get fergie and obsidian and atari off the hook... 'cause we believe this is an important issue, not just for nwn2, but for future games. not wanna see the next game be 20 hours, and the one after that ends up as 15 or 12 hours. gotta draw the line somewheres... why not here, eh?

 

so, Gromnir would likes some obsidian clarification as to whether or not the codex translation of fergie's comments is accurate. if it is accurate then we would likes to know what fergie thinks 'bout having the nwn2 oc be only 20 hours and if he believes the addition of a toolset makes up for this woeful paucity o' gameplay. finally, we would like to know if fergie believes that 20 hour pc crpgs is a trend, or simply an aberration limited to nwn2 and necessitated by forces unlikely to be repeated anytime soon.

 

we got other questions, and we nots need fergie to answer personal, but we is gonna keeps asking until somebody freaking answers. Got it?

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Judge Hades]

Well, below 30 hours is too short for a CRPG.

[Dark_Raven]

I thought we went over this, with many differing views on time of play.

 

Anything over 30 hours in an RPG is good IMO.

[Volourn]

As long as the story trying to be told cna be told in the time given; the length is irrelevant.

[Judge Hades]

Okay, well, enjoy your 10 minute CRPG that you paid $50 for.

[Volourn]

"Okay, well, enjoy your 10 minute CRPG that you paid $50 for."

 

Yeah, because a story can be told in 10 minutes and actually be good in a gaming format. LOLOLOLOLLIPOP

 

JE is 20-30 hours (40+ for slowpokes like you and 20- for speedsters). Good length for it since it doens't waste time with silly inventory tetris garbage ala the KOTORs or free roaming boring, and bland repetitive open space ala ES series.

 

Sure, BIO could have added another 10-20 hours; but it would ahve been fluff. Sure, entertainingg fluff most likely; but it would have likely added NOTHING to the story. I would have loved the extra 10-20 hours; but it was not neccessary.

 

Period.

[Llyranor]

As long as the story trying to be told cna be told in the time given; the length is irrelevant.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<3 dorkface

[Gromnir]

"Okay, well, enjoy your 10 minute CRPG that you paid $50 for."

 

Yeah, because  a story can be told in 10 minutes and actually be good in a gaming format. LOLOLOLOLLIPOP

 

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

there is an argument that a good story cannot be told in a crpg format in less than 30 hours. cut out all the tangential side-quests and you not really gots a crpg anymore

[Jumjalum]

As long as it's a good 20 hours I don't have a huge problem with it. It may be that there is more content than you'd get on just one playthrough which would make the length of the game a debatable point.

[Llyranor]

"Okay, well, enjoy your 10 minute CRPG that you paid $50 for."

 

Yeah, because  a story can be told in 10 minutes and actually be good in a gaming format. LOLOLOLOLLIPOP

 

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

there is an argument that a good story cannot be told in a crpg format in less than 30 hours. cut out all the tangential side-quests and you not really gots a crpg anymore

[Volourn]

"cut out all the tangential side-quests and you not really gots a crpg anymore

Edited April 25, 2006 by Volourn

[Gromnir]

besides which, donkey kong is the story of a plumber saving a princess from a giant barrel tossing ape... and that story typically ended for Gromnir in less than ten minutes.

 

"RPGs are about making choices that effect the outcome; not merely side quests. Heck, most RPG sidequests come with the following: accept/don't accept. LOL"

 

oh lord... vol telling us what is and ain't a crpg...

 

HA!

 

as bad as vis is vol sometimes.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited April 25, 2006 by Gromnir

[Volourn]

Thanks.

[Llyranor]

Say you have two games. One focuses on interactive storytelling, and roleplaying applies in the context of the story. Basically, choices and consequences all to different extent relate to the story. Heck, let's even take a recent example, Oblivion. Rather than making a vast explorable world, with limited emphasis on the story, you would focus on the Amulet of Kings, Boromir, etc. Only, you would turn it into a complex nonlinear story, where you could have meaningful interaction within. Got the Amulet? How about trading it to the black market? You interactions with the world would be via the story, rather than for exploration's own sake (to an extent, perhaps similar to exploring the world of Fallout specifically because you were looking for the waterchip). In terms of plausibility, this could be done quite easily within less than 20 hrs, and still provide quite a satisfying experience. Is it not a RPG if you can roleplay your character within the story?

 

On the other side, take Oblivion, but make it 'Bioware/Obsidian' style. Sidequests and so on, linear storyline with some sprinkles of choices spread throughout, only marginally. The main quest could take, maybe, 20 hrs in total. Only, because of lack of focus, it would be pretty linear (go to Spellhold, then go to the Underdark, then the elven city, rock on!). The difference would be that the game would be longer because you would diverge from the storyline at various points, engaging in exploration and sidequests that have no or little link with the main story.

 

Which would you prefer?

[Volourn]

The one where choices matter the most (as long as the story itself along with characters) were actually interetsing and I cared about them.

[Hurlshort]

Somehow, this reminds me of students who constantly ask how many pages an assignment is supposed to be. I seriously cringe at that question. Just write the dang story.

[alanschu]

Exactly!

[Gromnir]

Say you have two games. One focuses on interactive storytelling, and roleplaying applies in the context of the story. Basically, choices and consequences all to different extent relate to the story. Heck, let's even take a recent example, Oblivion. Rather than making a vast explorable world, with limited emphasis on the story, you would focus on the Amulet of Kings, Boromir, etc. Only, you would turn it into a complex nonlinear story, where you could have meaningful interaction within. Got the Amulet? How about trading it to the black market? You interactions with the world would be via the story, rather than for exploration's own sake (to an extent, perhaps similar to exploring the world of Fallout specifically because you were looking for the waterchip). In terms of plausibility, this could be done quite easily within less than 20 hrs, and still provide quite a satisfying experience. Is it not a RPG if you can roleplay your character within the story?

 

On the other side, take Oblivion, but make it 'Bioware/Obsidian' style. Sidequests and so on, linear storyline with some sprinkles of choices spread throughout, only marginally. The main quest could take, maybe, 20 hrs in total. Only, because of lack of focus, it would be pretty linear (go to Spellhold, then go to the Underdark, then the elven city, rock on!). The difference would be that the game would be longer because you would diverge from the storyline at various points, engaging in exploration and sidequests that have no or little link with the main story.

 

Which would you prefer?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

am not sure why you thinks the fallout example is different than the bio/obsidian linear+ sidequests example? 'cause of the way the maps is designed?

 

all stories is linear... whether you wanna admit or not. you can makes some parts interchangeable, but non-linearity o' story is an illusion. the more you makes some aspects of story interchangeable, the more likely the story is gonna seems incidental to gameplay, but do not deceive self into believing the non-linear myth. optional and tangential side-quests, and their availability, is simply a method to increase the illusion o' non-linear story.

 

regardless, am not seeing how, especially with some kinda basic intro/tutorial aspect of a game, and a coherent concluding sequence, you manages less than 30 hours of game play with a crpg.

 

maybe makes a serial wherein nwn2 is the first 1/3 of story? yeah, we can see that. in fact, Gromnir has suggested this kinda thing in past. release a game with intent of releasing two follow up games shortly thereafter to complete the story... makes a short and incomplete 30 hour game into one bigs 90 hour game. sure.

 

but 20 hours of crpg that ain't simply a linear lead by the nose bit of adventure gaming...

 

HA! Good Fun!

[alanschu]

I don't consider tangential sidequests to be a contributor to non-linearity in any way.

 

I know it's not possible to be 100% non-linear, but many of the Ultima games I have played were quite non-linear. Which I enjoyed, because if I got stuck following up one part of the game, I could explore a bit an help myself out.

 

In Ultima VII, I got stuck at one point and ended up doing some adventuring through the lands. I found a locked door and was able to solve the puzzle to open it, which had me talk to the person inside. I told her about the state of the world (she was an old friend from other Ultimas that was magically put asleep). She gave me other tasks to do, and in doing so I was able to piece together how I was stuck on my first task, and successfully complete it.

[Gromnir]

Exactly!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

that would be nice, but it ain't practical. crpg story is not novel writing or short story writing. got relatively fixed resources... and if it turns out that your resources not match your hopes and desires for story, which you thinks is gonna get cut or expanded? looks at nwn2 for your answer. content (possibly relevant or even integral to story,) got cut 'cause quality of game could not be maintained with september deadline looming.

 

just write the story.

 

bah.

 

is not realistic... is not the way a game developer can approach.

 

crpg story is not and cannot be organic.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited April 25, 2006 by Gromnir

[Cantousent]

I'll have to read the thread, but in response to the original post, I agree completely. We're consumers. If we are important as a group, we should receive an answer. Some sort of answer. Maybe we're not important, but we are still compelled to urge Obsidian to give us an answer.

 

If you prefer a 20 campaign, you should advocate your preferrence.

 

If you prefer a longer campaign, then you should advocate longer campaigns.

 

The length is not a particular issue to me, but I do prefer a longer campaign and Gromnir's questions don't seem unreasonable.

[Llyranor]

Exactly!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

that would be nice, but it ain't practical. crpg story is not novel writing or short story writing. got relatively fixed resources... and if it turns out that your resources not match your hopes and desires for story, which you thinks is gonna get cut or expanded? looks at nwn2 for your answer. content (possibly relevant or even integral to story,) got cut 'cause quality of game could not be maintained with september deadline looming.

 

just write the story.

 

bah.

 

is not realistic... is not the way a game developer can approach.

 

crpg story is not and cannot be organic.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Go go industry!

[Darque]

Exactly!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not really that practical where $$$ are concerned.

 

You get what you pay for, but when you pay 50-60 bucks you expect to get your money's worth.

[alanschu]

Exactly!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

that would be nice, but it ain't practical. crpg story is not novel writing or short story writing. got relatively fixed resources... and if it turns out that your resources not match your hopes and desires for story, which you thinks is gonna get cut or expanded? looks at nwn2 for your answer. content (possibly relevant or even integral to story,) got cut 'cause quality of game could not be maintained with september deadline looming.

 

just write the story.

 

bah.

 

is not realistic... is not the way a game developer can approach.

 

crpg story is not and cannot be organic.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

Errr, but "just writing the story," I was thinking that they should not concern themselves with meeting arbitrary lengths. Make the best available story, with the resources allotted. Don't make a story longer, nor shorter, "just because."

[alanschu]

Exactly!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not really that practical where $$$ are concerned.

 

You get what you pay for, but when you pay 50-60 bucks you expect to get your money's worth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Exactly. I don't think that length of the game is and end all be all. A crap long game is much, much worse than an excellent short game IMO. Sure, I'd love for there to be an excellent long game, but I don't think developers should go about saying "Ok, we need to get 30 hours or else."