Scaling.

[Haitoku]

Having to NOT level up on purpose when the game wnats you to, just so that you don't break it, is not "playing properly". It's breaking immersion to purposefully manipulate the external character system in order to keep the playing field at a reasonable (not good) level. It might be the best we've got for now, but it's certainly not satisfactory.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That is what I feel as well. It sucks having to manage your skills just to get those +5s at level up.

[Lare Kikkeli]

just get mods. there are a bunch that fix the leveling system.

 

http://www.tessource.net/ is a good site.

 

Tough luck if you have the 360 version though.

Edited April 1, 2006 by Lare Kikkeli

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Having to NOT level up on purpose when the game wnats you to, just so that you don't break it, is not "playing properly". It's breaking immersion to purposefully manipulate the external character system in order to keep the playing field at a reasonable (not good) level. It might be the best we've got for now, but it's certainly not satisfactory.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That is what I feel as well. It sucks having to manage your skills just to get those +5s at level up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well you dont really need those +5 skill ups.

 

But I agree that having to manage your levels is not a good thing.

[Haitoku]

Having to NOT level up on purpose when the game wnats you to, just so that you don't break it, is not "playing properly". It's breaking immersion to purposefully manipulate the external character system in order to keep the playing field at a reasonable (not good) level. It might be the best we've got for now, but it's certainly not satisfactory.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That is what I feel as well. It sucks having to manage your skills just to get those +5s at level up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well you dont really need those +5 skill ups.

 

But I agree that having to manage your levels is not a good thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Try building a stealth character or something that isn't as combat focused.... Hell, just get to level 50 and tell me those +5 aren't needed...

[metadigital]

Having to NOT level up on purpose when the game wnats you to, just so that you don't break it, is not "playing properly". It's breaking immersion to purposefully manipulate the external character system in order to keep the playing field at a reasonable (not good) level. It might be the best we've got for now, but it's certainly not satisfactory.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That is what I feel as well. It sucks having to manage your skills just to get those +5s at level up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well you dont really need those +5 skill ups.

 

But I agree that having to manage your levels is not a good thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I ... I can't help it! :">

[Shadowstrider]

Having to NOT level up on purpose when the game wnats you to, just so that you don't break it, is not "playing properly". It's breaking immersion to purposefully manipulate the external character system in order to keep the playing field at a reasonable (not good) level. It might be the best we've got for now, but it's certainly not satisfactory.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

You're problem is with "level up!" in general, not with Oblivion's system. Oblivion, itself, isn't broken.

[Haitoku]

Having to NOT level up on purpose when the game wnats you to, just so that you don't break it, is not "playing properly". It's breaking immersion to purposefully manipulate the external character system in order to keep the playing field at a reasonable (not good) level. It might be the best we've got for now, but it's certainly not satisfactory.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

You're problem is with "level up!" in general, not with Oblivion's system. Oblivion, itself, isn't broken.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No... I think he is saying how he hates to manage what skill-ups he gets per level to get those good attribute gains at level up.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Try building a stealth character or something that isn't as combat focused....  Hell, just get to level 50 and tell me those +5 aren't needed...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well a character who cant fight isnt really viable anyway. It's not that sort of game. If you want to play stealth you need to hit and run with chameleon or invis.

 

I'm level 20 at the moment and I've maxed str and almost maxed end. I don't recall ever getting a +5 in str anywhere along the way.

 

If the stats didnt cap at 100 it might be more relevent. But since they do once your stat and your skill are maxed the only way your going to improve your chances is through your gear.

 

This is where I became unstuck in Kvatch. I was still using the starting 3 damage sword even though I was level 12. Up until then It worked out fine.

 

Summons are a great way to even the odds. A decent summon is worth more than +5 per level any day. Even Spanky (scamp) who is a really low level summon will make a one on one fight easy since you just make sure one of you is always at their back. It's a lot like being an EQ Shadow Knight again

 

Gear is definately where it's at. The way I play is a little odd I guess. But I normally use my least powerful weapon and only switch up when it's required (like 2 on one or more) or I want something dead fast (usually a caster).

 

If you want good weapons. Raiding Oblivion gates is the way to go

Edited April 1, 2006 by ShadowPaladin V1.0

[mkreku]

Hell, just get to level 50 and tell me those +5 aren't needed...

Uh.. ok. I am level 42 now (or something) and I have gotten ONE (count'em) +5 raise. Maybe the last 8 levels is where I'll need them, but so far I've done good with my +2 (most common) and +3 (second most common).

 

You guys worry too much about that stuff. Enjoy the game instead.

 

 

 

Edit: I fail at quoting.

Edited April 1, 2006 by mkreku

[Haitoku]

You guys worry too much about that stuff. Enjoy the game instead.

 

Im trying...

 

I made the mistake of treating Oblivion like it was a real CRPG... I made a Sneaky, diplomatic spell caster... and well, towards level 20 almost everything I invested time in became useless.

[Hassat Hunter]

You're problem is with "level up!" in general, not with Oblivion's system.  Oblivion, itself, isn't broken.

 

So how do you call a system then that forces you to use Skill X again and again instead of just allowing you to do your thing and then level up while playing (which *should* be the way the system worked... I always hear META-GAMING if people do it on the first method).

And if you just play Oblivion like you should (Just adventuring and not guided skill-advanchment) it is broken. Pretty severe. Especially when you have almost all combat-skills and still gain 2 lvls when being in town and then when you go into the wilderness a Mountain Lion takes away 1/5th of your health WHEN BLOCKED!

 

I just play without leveling in mind, just keep playing as should; levelup when a level is given... etc. etc. And I notice that if I attack "any" single enemy (lvl 11 now) without full health I am a dead cat... unless they use the very weak ranged/magic stuff... since a hit of that doesn't disable me from combat for 10 seconds...

Edited April 1, 2006 by Hassat Hunter

[Dyan]

Btw, I thought the guy who suggested the Gothic 2 monster thing was dead on.

Gothic 2 is one of my all time favourite games.. )

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I like the first one better ".

 

Gothic 2's a great game too

[Shadowstrider]

So how do you call a system then that forces you to use Skill X again and again instead of just allowing you to do your thing and then level up while playing (which *should* be the way the system worked... I always hear META-GAMING if people do it on the first method).

And if you just play Oblivion like you should (Just adventuring and not guided skill-advanchment) it is broken. Pretty severe. Especially when you have almost all combat-skills and still gain 2 lvls when being in town  and then when you go into the wilderness a Mountain Lion takes away 1/5th of your health WHEN BLOCKED!

 

If you play "like you want" and pick the right skills, the system works fine.

 

If you pick marksman, but never use a bow, you'll level slower, but you'll also suck with a bow.

 

If you pick block, blade/blunt, heavy armor and engage in melee the game isn't terribly difficult. Conversely, if you pick light armor and bow and stand there trying to tank you die. I CAN'T imagine why!

 

Traditional leveling up makes no sense. Why does your skill with a blade increase when you help a little old lady get her package from the post office? *Boggle.* I just helped grannie, NOW I UNDERSTAND TEH ULTARMATE SWORD TECHNIQZ!

 

Is the Elder Scrolls/Oblivion system perfect? No, but it is certainly less meta-gamey than "traditional" RPG systems.

 

I just play without leveling in mind, just keep playing as should; levelup when a level is given... etc. etc. And I notice that if I attack "any" single enemy (lvl 11 now) without full health I am a dead cat... unless they use the very weak ranged/magic stuff... since a hit of that doesn't disable me from combat for 10 seconds...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

User error. The combat is challenging, but I can't recall a single "I'm completely overpowered by 1 opponent" issues in the latest build.

 

Reminescent of that old Chestnut Hades and the Werewolf.

 

No...  I think he is saying how he hates to manage what skill-ups he gets per level to get those good attribute gains at level up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, I don't really see the problem, because non-major skills increase the stat bonuses as well. If you work construction every day you get stronger. If you work as an ambassador every day you become more persuasive. It makes sense to me, whether or not it is hard to manage, I don't have a problem with it. Granted, my experience with the game isn't the same as everyones, but the information provided users in the creation process is no different than what I recieve. If you pick 7 major skills with a variety of stats associated, yeah you'll get a bunch of +2s rather than a single +5 or something, but that is part of the character development process.

 

Again, the system isn't perfect, but I don't really see this as a tremendous issue, or much of one, really.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

If the intent is for your character to actually matter, rather than the gear they wear, then yep it's seriously broken.

 

I just did the gate with two specfic items and it was a cake walk. :D

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I made the mistake of treating Oblivion like it was a real CRPG...  I made a Sneaky, diplomatic spell caster... and well, towards level 20 almost everything I invested time in became useless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Imagine everything is backwards. Minor in skills you use all the time and major in skills you hardly ever use. :D

 

That way you level up really slowly , but maximise your levels. Another way is to do what I am doing which is to level up when you feel things are getting easy. Although breaking a couple of gates and making yourself a couple of vampiric weapons will have the same effect.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Well, I don't really see the problem, because non-major skills increase the stat bonuses as well.  If you work construction every day you get stronger.  If you work as an ambassador every day you become more persuasive.  It makes sense to me, whether or not it is hard to manage, I don't have a problem with it.  Granted, my experience with the game isn't the same as everyones, but the information provided users in the creation process is no different than what I recieve.  If you pick 7 major skills with a variety of stats associated, yeah you'll get a bunch of +2s rather than a single +5 or something, but that is part of the character development process.

 

Again, the system isn't perfect, but I don't really see this as a tremendous issue, or much of one, really.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You would be better off ditching the concept of levels completely and going the FFII route where casting spells and hitting things increase your associated stat and using lots of mana or getting hit a lot increase your mana and health pools.

 

Stats would raise as you use the skills, but as play rather than having to find a bed to level.

 

I dont find the levels particularly useful or complimentry to the learn by doing system either.

Edited April 1, 2006 by ShadowPaladin V1.0

[Gromnir]

so, guys who work construction for 15 years should be really strong, right? sorry chum, but even if you thinks that the level mechanic is logical, do not try to convince us that it is realistic. besides which, imagines if getting better at framing and laying tile also meant that the muggers you met would be particluarly fearsome, and the telemarketing jerks would be so slick that they could actually convince you to buy 2000lbs of meat. Gromnir has a friend who went to the olympics in a swimming event... but it seems highly unlikely that she could kick our arse.

 

btw, working construction never resulted in Gromnir getting strong... made us tired and sore... but at least it didn't make us a drug user or give us skin cancer as it did many other folks. our coaches hated that we worked construction, 'cause we lost weight and gots weaker... but we needed the money, so...

 

again, maybe the mechanic makes sense to people, but do not try to convince us that there is anything realistic 'bout it.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Shadowstrider]

so, guys who work construction for 15 years should be really strong, right?  sorry chum, but even if you thinks that the level mechanic is logical, do not try to convince us that it is realistic.  besides which, imagines if getting better at framing and laying tile also meant that the muggers you met would be particluarly fearsome, and the telemarketing jerks would be so slick that they could actually convince you to buy 2000lbs of meat.  Gromnir has a friend who went to the olympics in a swimming event... but it seems highly unlikely that she could kick our arse.

 

btw, working construction never resulted in Gromnir getting strong... made us tired and sore... but at least it didn't make us a drug user or give us skin cancer as it did many other folks.  our coaches hated that we worked construction, 'cause we lost weight and gots weaker... but we needed the money, so...

 

again, maybe the mechanic makes sense to people, but do not try to convince us that there is anything realistic 'bout it.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't know about you, but working construction certainly made me stronger. Sore and tired, as well, but I was definitely made stronger. No, you're not going to be stronger if you're only doing it for a few monthes, but making a career out of it most assuredly makes you physically stronger. When I started working in the carpet industry I couldn't lift the equivalent of 2 men, but somewhere over the course of 3 years I became able to.

 

Physical fitness != Physical power. I wasn't in great shape after 3 years, but I was much stronger.

 

As for drugs or skin cancer, yes construction work is a tough way to live, but that really has nothing to do with physical strength.

 

You would be better off ditching the concept of levels completely and going the FFII route where casting spells and hitting things increase your associated stat and using lots of mana or getting hit a lot increase your mana and health pools.

 

Stats would raise as you use the skills, but as play rather than having to find a bed to level.

 

I dont find the levels particularly useful or complimentry to the learn by doing system either.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You're preaching to the choir, here. I find the whole concept of "levels" stupid, but I also realize that most people associate levels with RPGs. I said the ES system wasn't perfect, but I don't have a problem with how it works, either.

[Gromnir]

nuts. we were always the strongest guy working on our crew, and we got far less strong as we worked. line up ten construction workers... guys who has worked in the industry for 10+ years. then line up 10 guys who is dentists or birthday clowns. compare strength. we thinks you will be real surprised at how little difference you see. construction beats you down far more than it builds up.

 

is there some professions that helps builds strength? sure there is... but we never noticed that the guys in the construction industry were all that strong.

 

heck, Gromnir were something of a jock... hard as that is to believe. you thinks football made us stronger? bull. weight training and genetics + proper rest and nutrition made us stronger, but football made us weaker. were hard as hell to keep weight on during the season. throw in the unavoidable small inuries that comes with football (and construction,) and it were even tougher to stay strong.

 

 

"As for drugs or skin cancer, yes construction work is a tough way to live, but that really has nothing to do with physical strength."

 

actually, it gots a lot to do with physical strength.

 

*shrug*

 

regardless, as we noted already, our friend, the olympic class swimmer, whose oblivion levels would be through the roof, would never try to fight Gromnir for the obvious reason that we is far stronger and far more experienced at fighting.

 

oblivion realistic? never try to convince us that one of its advantages is realism.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Shadowstrider]

I don't recall using the word realistic, unless I said it is "more realistic than" traditional RPGs. Traditional RPG leveling makes very little sense in terms of realism, where as the ES system is certainly MORE REALISTIC THAN the "experience points" system most things use.

 

Is it realistic? No. It is, however, more realistic.

[Gromnir]

I don't recall using the word realistic, unless I said it is "more realistic than" traditional RPGs.  Traditional RPG leveling makes very little sense in terms of realism, where as the ES system is certainly MORE REALISTIC THAN the "experience points" system most things use.

 

Is it realistic?  No.  It is, however, more realistic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

*chuckle*

 

split hairs maybe?

 

level scheme for most games is not attempting to mirror reality, so oblivion accomplishment is kinda suspect, eh?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Shadowstrider]

*chuckle*

 

split hairs maybe? 

 

level scheme for most games is not attempting to mirror reality, so oblivion accomplishment is kinda suspect, eh?

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It isn't splitting hairs. The ES leveling system is closer to reality than a traditional RPG, but isn't realistic.

 

No, traditional systems aren't supposed to mirror reality, what traditional leveling systems try to accomplish is a sort of epiphany moment. Suddenly your character's experience has come to fruition. "Level up" is supposed to represent a moment in time whare your character realizes something that makes them better. Movies and books do this too, except in movies it isn't inexplicable, it is triggered by something specific. In RPGs, it is triggered by delivering grannie her groceries.

[J.E. Sawyer]

I have never enjoyed any game with difficulty scaling that wasn't by user choice. If I played F2 and areas like SAD scaled to an easier level of difficulty because I stumbled across it at 5th level, I would be pretty disappointed.

[Azarkon]

Scaling is like Communism... Great in theory, terrible in practice.

 

If there weren't scaling, my enjoyment of Oblivion would probably double, simply because I'd feel a sense of accomplishment when I best a level 10 monster at level 5, and a nervous anxiety each time I venture into a dungeon for fear of what might lie behind the door. As it is, I have neither the opportunity of challenging monsters too strong for me nor the choice to spend a day training up and p0wn the world. In the end, it's about player freedom and immersion.

 

For a longer explanation, just take a look at the TES boards.

Edited April 2, 2006 by Azarkon

[Tigranes]

No, traditional systems aren't supposed to mirror reality, what traditional leveling systems try to accomplish is a sort of epiphany moment. Suddenly your character's experience has come to fruition. "Level up" is supposed to represent a moment in time whare your character realizes something that makes them better. Movies and books do this too, except in movies it isn't inexplicable, it is triggered by something specific. In RPGs, it is triggered by delivering grannie her groceries.

 

I thought Elder Scrolls was going for the same thing, at least judging by their Level Up messages. "Suddenly everything is crystal clear" and all that. I mean, Oblivion has a mixture of Levelling and By-Use increase, sure, but that's taking away from the actual discussion - scaling. Wouldn't matter what it scaled by, but the fact that it scaled. Everything.