Scaling.

[astr0creep]

Cheer up! It's a game, and a pretty darn good one to play!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't doubt that but they made a RPG in which levelups are completely useless. A skills system like Diablo would've been ok here but the scaling system with stats increase makes the game a FPS and not much more. If only the monsters were scaling it would be ok but items as well? In a free, open-ended environment/world? They even make the motivation for exploring their beautiful world reduced and it even cuts down replayability.

 

Back to Vvaardenfell for me, thank you...

 

EDIT: Edited for harshness.

Edited March 31, 2006 by astr0creep

[mkreku]

Well, at least I found a book about artifacts of Tamriel. In it they discuss the very unique pieces of armour/weapons that supposedly exist in the world. They're a good incentive to make yourself investigate that umpteenth similar-looking dungeon )

 

At least for me.

[astr0creep]

Well, at least I found a book about artifacts of Tamriel. In it they discuss the very unique pieces of armour/weapons that supposedly exist in the world. They're a good incentive to make yourself investigate that umpteenth similar-looking dungeon )

 

At least for me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Does the book mention what level you must be to actually have a chance to see the artefact when you hunt down it's location?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Well I'd prefer if it was scaled by dungeon rather than by individual. It would add some variety. You could start off with easier things at the top and progress to harder things as you get to the bottom.

 

As I've said the problem I'm personally having with scaling is when you are outnumbered. And I've taken steps to sort that out :D

 

Otherwise it's not so bad although the ammount of damage you have to inflict now is getting a bit silly.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Well, at least I found a book about artifacts of Tamriel. In it they discuss the very unique pieces of armour/weapons that supposedly exist in the world. They're a good incentive to make yourself investigate that umpteenth similar-looking dungeon )

 

At least for me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I've been running errands for the Deadra Lords :D

[Haitoku]

-> At any given level, you will rarely (if ever) be handed challenges much below your level, or much above your level. This has the effect of making all enemies pretty much the same Pack of Challenge wrapped in a different texture, and it really feels like the world is levelling up Platform-style.

 

This is wrong.

 

At level 50 monsters are insanely strong. I've even messed around with the console command... At level 50, with all stats maxed at 100 and skills at 100 as well even the Goblin Warlords could own me rather easily (they are common as hell too).

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Does the book mention what level you must be to actually have a chance to see the artefact when you hunt down it's location?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well the deadra lord quests have a minimum level requirement. I'm doing one for Clavicus Vile that has a min level 20 requirement. I'm not sure if these are the same weapons spoken of in the book though.

 

The rewards thus far have been very good.

[Gromnir]

I have hit upon the method of play: don't level up just because you can, level up when you want to change the game (to get better equipment, different monsters, etc).

 

Just because the PC can reach level 158, doesn't mean that is the best stratedy to adopt.

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

...

 

it may be that your suggestion fixes problems (though it is not any thing clever or new as peo has been observing since game's release that in oblivion you is more powerful at level 1 than at level 20,) but such a suggestion is pretty much an admission that bethesda really screwed the pooch with their leveling scheme. if you, as a player, gotta do crazy stuff to keeps game balanced or fun then the developers failed.

 

*shrug*

 

again, we ain't saying that obsidian is terrible, but the level scheme is. scaling is fine, but the level scheme is horrible... which is probably a result of the unavoidably busted learn-by-doing approach.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[metadigital]

Well, maybe the problem is that it is not possible to serve more than one master, simultaneously ... those who OCD level-grind and want 150+ levels for their

[Tigranes]

And the game is still a hell of a lot better than Morrowind. And you can still rob shops blind at night witha little skill.

[Haitoku]

I don't think the game is perfect, but on balance (and comparing to every other RPG) I think Bethesda has done some great work with the game.

 

I want you to try this.

 

Use console commands to get all your attributes to 100 and skills to 100 and level up to 50. You are officially kind of oblivion, everything maxed out, nothing should be able to stop you.

 

Now, find a Goblin Warlord and tell me he isn't kicking your butt?

That is not balanced.

 

If you make a non-combat character, or even a stealth character, you will be in trouble later in the game.

 

EDIT - I like the game, I really do (and I hated Morrowind) but the level system and scaling is just awful. In order to get all the attribute bonuses to keep up with monsters at later levels you have to managa what skills you use so you can get the +5 at level up.... That certainly isn't role-playing and it certainly isn't fun.

Edited March 31, 2006 by Haitoku

[metadigital]

How is playing a level 50 character with maximum stats testing the balance of the game?

 

I think you missed the rest of my post, so I'll quote it here for you.

... those who OCD level-grind and want 150+ levels for their

[Dhruin]

I think people who find the level scaling too weird are the same as those who complain about the "insta-travel" option. Just don't meta-game it to breaking point. don't level up every time you can: wait until you arrive at a good character build point, where you can add five-plus points for a main attribute (for all three attributes raised in a level up), not just the single.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sorry, I don't agree with your insistence that the problem is only caused by metagaming at all. There are a lot of us who are just playing the game as it comes naturally and for me it's obvious there are serious faults with the level scheme. Your suggestion that players "wait until you arrive at a good character build point" is, in fact, metagaming to me.

 

There's nothing wrong with scaling. Applying it across the board with a poorly designed character development system causes all sorts of havoc - not necessarily for every character or play style but it does for many.

[Lyric Suite]

Well, so far Oblivion seems very good as an FPS, very poor as an RPG, rather unpolished in certain areas.

[Llyranor]

Er, no, as a FPS, it would fail.

[Lyric Suite]

Er, no, as a FPS, it would fail.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Naaa, it's decent enough. At least until Dark Messiah arrives...

[Gromnir]

I think people who find the level scaling too weird are the same as those who complain about the "insta-travel" option. Just don't meta-game it to breaking point. don't level up every time you can: wait until you arrive at a good character build point, where you can add five-plus points for a main attribute (for all three attributes raised in a level up), not just the single.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sorry, I don't agree with your insistence that the problem is only caused by metagaming at all. There are a lot of us who are just playing the game as it comes naturally and for me it's obvious there are serious faults with the level scheme. Your suggestion that players "wait until you arrive at a good character build point" is, in fact, metagaming to me.

 

There's nothing wrong with scaling. Applying it across the board with a poorly designed character development system causes all sorts of havoc - not necessarily for every character or play style but it does for many.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

agreed. as we keep saying, it is NOT scaling that is a problem. the way you level is a problem when you add in the rather blunt instrument that is bethesda scaling.

 

btw, we got no problem with insta-travel. we woulda' complained if some sorta insta-travel weren't available.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Haitoku]

How is playing a level 50 character with maximum stats testing the balance of the game? huh.gif

 

I think you missed the rest of my post, so I'll quote it here for you. original.gif

 

It's fairly easy to hit level 50 with the current system. If you can't take on the enemies at level 50 with all maxed out stats, what are the chances a normal level 50 character who specialized in a certain areas have a chance.

[Tigranes]

Having to NOT level up on purpose when the game wnats you to, just so that you don't break it, is not "playing properly". It's breaking immersion to purposefully manipulate the external character system in order to keep the playing field at a reasonable (not good) level. It might be the best we've got for now, but it's certainly not satisfactory.

[mkreku]

I really think you're blowing the problem out of proportion. The game works, after all. I am level 40+ right now, and although the battles are much tougher than in the beginning, it's never impossible. And it's much better than Morrowind, where you hit level 3 and all challenge was gone from the game already. It's not the best system, but it works satisfactory enough.

 

I just wish they had done it with more.. finesse. Instead of conforming every enemy in the world to your level, they should have made some dungeons contain "your level + 5"-enemies (or something) and some dungeons should be static (bound to level 10 for example). Also, making the treasure chests scale is a BAD idea. I don't know how many "very hard" chests I've picked and yet only found 70 gold.. annoying.

 

I usually don't like sets of armour very much, but in this game, where there are hundreds of dungeons and thousands of treasure chests, it might have been a good idea. At least better than the random stuff that's everywhere now.

[Tigranes]

I thought it was a given that it's much better than Morrowind. :/ Then there are the locked chests - if they are too hard for you you know you'l never remember to come back and spend 10 mins in an empty dungeon looking for it, and they are never to hard anyway because the minigame lets you open anything at Security 1, except it's not worth it anyway because at low levels you break 2 picks to find 1 pick inside.

 

[metadigital]

I think people who find the level scaling too weird are the same as those who complain about the "insta-travel" option. Just don't meta-game it to breaking point. don't level up every time you can: wait until you arrive at a good character build point, where you can add five-plus points for a main attribute (for all three attributes raised in a level up), not just the single.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, I don't agree with your insistence that the problem is only caused by metagaming at all. There are a lot of us who are just playing the game as it comes naturally and for me it's obvious there are serious faults with the level scheme. Your suggestion that players "wait until you arrive at a good character build point" is, in fact, metagaming to me.

 

There's nothing wrong with scaling. Applying it across the board with a poorly designed character development system causes all sorts of havoc - not necessarily for every character or play style but it does for many.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I never said the scaling system wasn't faulty. I hazarded a guess as to why it exists in the form it does in the game: one group of people want to reach level 150+, and another group want to wander around and do any and all parts of the game in any order, and some that want both.

 

I then gave my personal solution to the game as it exists. Which, by the way, I didn't create in some grand strategy: it was just obvious that when levelling up I wanted my character to increase stats by as much as possible: a more efficient level process. Other people's observations that groups of level 50 monsters would pwn a level 50 PC just confirmed my conviction.

 

As the game exists right now, it provides some enemies for the player to fight, who are just out of reach. That is a pretty laudable goal, and even if Bethesda don't pull it off 100% of the time, they have done well. Basically the game demands the PC use strategy and tactics to win battles, not brute magic power.

 

What was it that Mal said to Zoe just prior to the meeting with Patience on Whitefall: "They've always got the advantage; that's what makes us special!".

 

How is playing a level 50 character with maximum stats testing the balance of the game? huh.gif

 

I think you missed the rest of my post, so I'll quote it here for you. original.gif

 

It's fairly easy to hit level 50 with the current system. If you can't take on the enemies at level 50 with all maxed out stats, what are the chances a normal level 50 character who specialized in a certain areas have a chance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, it's not. Reaching level 50 is an egregious effort, not a mandatory one. I suggest you throttle back your desire to have your PC at the highest level possible, and try to enjoy the process of adventuring.

 

agreed.  as we keep saying, it is NOT scaling that is a problem.  the way you level is a problem when you add in the rather blunt instrument that is bethesda scaling.

 

btw, we got no problem with insta-travel.  we woulda' complained if some sorta insta-travel weren't available.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can't really argue that point, except to say that it is a tool: maybe Bethesda might have refined the mechanism a little bit more, but then again I am not privy to the design decisions that they made along the way ...

 

I use insta-travel when I want to just get to the next bit of the plot, too. It allows me to only go wandering when I want to go wandering.

[mkreku]

I use insta-travel when I want to just get to the next bit of the plot, too. It allows me to only go wandering when I want to go wandering.

Exactly! I don't understand why people are whining about the insta-travel. To me, it's the best of both worlds. Sometimes I just don't feel like walking from Skingrad to Bruma and then I just click once on the map and I'm instantly there. Perfect. Other times, when I feel like exploring, I just walk from A to B, and most often have a lot of fun doing so.

 

Sometimes it feels like people are whining just to whine.

[Dyan]

I don't like their scaling. It's just far too overdone. Having some low level enemies around to slaughter and higher level enemies that are almost impossible to kill is a must-have for me. While I don't want a god-character, I don't expect everything in the world to rise with my character's level. Some things, sure. I do expect a challenge, but not quite to the extent that Oblivion has.

 

I don't like how all the enemies' gear breaks the economy and makes money worthless either.

 

That said, that and not being able to fight from horseback really are my only complains with the game.

 

The dialogue's not great, but it's not bad either. Just could use a bit more work, 'sall. The rest of the game more than makes up for it though

 

Just my opinion. (even if I am echoing others here). Btw, I thought the guy who suggested the Gothic 2 monster thing was dead on.

[mkreku]

Btw, I thought the guy who suggested the Gothic 2 monster thing was dead on.

Gothic 2 is one of my all time favourite games.. )