Making you feel like you're there

[qaz156]

I'm hoping that Obsidian or one of the RPG companies in the near future makes an RPG that focuses on making the gamer feel like he/she is really there in that gaming world. VTM Bloodlines was the first game for me that really gave me a glimpse of that, albeit a glimpse. I thought having your own apartment that you come back to, checking your e-mail and being able to turn on the radio and tv, that had DIFFERENT material playing at different points of the game, all made it it more immersive. Sometimes I felt kinda like I was there. Some people obviously may disagree with me. I also thought that Morrowind failed to make me feel like I was there, because there wasn't that sort of detail that was present in VTMB such as e-mail, the radio, the tv or Heather. But now that I know it's possible to make a gamer feel like they're there, I think it'd be cool if one of Obsidian's projects revolved around immersing the player in the experience in such a way.

[Child of Flame]

I think more CRPGs and other PC only games with computers need to let you use the interface like Bloodlines did.

 

Maybe I am just impressed by little tricks, but that felt terribly immersive to me and I couldn't help but think "Wow, how cool would it have been if all the computers you worked with in the Splinter Cell games had an interface like this?"

 

So yeah, I know what you mean.

[Nick_i_am]

Deus Ex can get a lot of flak or praise depending on who you talk to, but for some reason I found the more 'RPG' sections (the ones with actual NPCs and not just full of baddies) of the game really immersive.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Deus Ex can get a lot of flak or praise depending on who you talk to, but for some reason I found the more 'RPG' sections (the ones with actual NPCs and not just full of baddies) of the game really immersive.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, the problem is that some interaction, NPC or otherwise is good but there are multiple instances of it being shot down by ambitious design that didn't got off the ambition part. Some of the main character's interaction is either limited by a giant designer warning going "you can't do this or you'll break the game", or just not taken into account by the game. How's immersion sound when you can't kill an NPC because he's been tagged as immortal and necessary to the story? Try killing Manderley or Jock, for instance: you just can't. They will only die when and if the game determines so. You also can't kill Gunther Hermann until a given point in the game, because he's treated as immortal as well. Which in a way begs the question: why does a junior agent who will die with two headshots need to save an immortal guy who takes out NSF troops and security bots with a knife? This isn't immersive. Neither is having to go find some door code because a glass door which you could just blow apart is tagged as locked and indestructable. For something many boast the game has - meaningful choices and consequences - it would be much more meaningful if you actually needed to save Hermann, rather than letting go off on a killing spree.

 

EDIT: By the way, was I the only one to laugh hard at the fact that killing every NSF soldier on Liberty Island will not get me any noticeable reaction from Manderley, but if I talk to Sharon in the women's restroom or destroy cleaning bots he gets mad at me? Not very credible, either.

Edited January 6, 2006 by Role-Player

[CoM_Solaufein]

I'm hoping that Obsidian or one of the RPG companies in the near future makes an RPG that focuses on making the gamer feel like he/she is really there in that gaming world. VTM Bloodlines was the first game for me that really gave me a glimpse of that, albeit a glimpse. I thought having your own apartment that you come back to, checking your e-mail and being able to turn on the radio and tv, that had DIFFERENT material playing at different points of the game, all made it it more immersive. Sometimes I felt kinda like I was there. Some people obviously may disagree with me. I also thought that Morrowind failed to make me feel like I was there, because there wasn't that sort of detail that was present in VTMB such as e-mail, the radio, the tv or Heather. But now that I know it's possible to make a gamer feel like they're there, I think it'd be cool if one of Obsidian's projects revolved around immersing the player in the experience in such a way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's one thing I liked about Bloodlines is that. There were points in the game that made me jump back because you are so involved in it. I never played a game that did that to me.

[Nick_i_am]

Well, the problem is that some interaction, NPC or otherwise is good but there are multiple instances of it being shot down by ambitious design that didn't got off the ambition part. Some of the main character's interaction is either limited by a giant designer warning going "you can't do this or you'll break the game", or just not taken into account by the game. How's immersion sound when you can't kill an NPC because he's been tagged as immortal and necessary to the story? Try killing Manderley or Jock, for instance: you just can't. They will only die when and if the game determines so. You also can't kill Gunther Hermann until a given point in the game, because he's treated as immortal as well. Which in a way begs the question: why does a junior agent who will die with two headshots need to save an immortal guy who takes out NSF troops and security bots with a knife? This isn't immersive. Neither is having to go find some door code because a glass door which you could just blow apart is tagged as locked and indestructable. For something many boast the game has - meaningful choices and consequences - it would be much more meaningful if you actually needed to save Hermann, rather than letting go off on a killing spree.

 

EDIT: By the way, was I the only one to laugh hard at the fact that killing every NSF soldier on Liberty Island will not get me any noticeable reaction from Manderley, but if I talk to Sharon in the women's restroom or destroy cleaning bots he gets mad at me? Not very credible, either.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, this is all completely fair which is much of the reason why opinions are so split, and the split probably comes from those who played the game 'straight' and thought who thought 'hey, what happens if I try to kill my boss!'. I would NOT play this game again, it's not even slightly tempting, but when I played it I played as one would expect the protagonist to actually act. Boring possibly, but as long as one 'played by the rules' the immersion could be very high.

 

Of course, as you point out, trying to bend these rules would instantly break the immersion, but if you're killing friendly agents and lobbing grenades at your boss then immersion in the gameworld probably isn't your priority to start with.

 

...also, who didn't go into the womens toilets?

[Diogo Ribeiro]

but if you're killing friendly agents and lobbing grenades at your boss then immersion in the gameworld probably isn't your priority to start with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

How can I feel immersed in a gameworld that doesn't provide credible consequences to my actions, or only does so when it supports its own existence or rules?

Edited January 6, 2006 by Role-Player

[Hell Kitty]

Is there ever any reason to kill Manderley or Jock, besides "OMG I'm roleplaying a psycho!"?

[Judge Hades]

I think that CRPGs need to be more like Fallout and a wholeless like Deus Ex, but that is just me.

[Child of Flame]

Is there ever any reason to kill Manderley or Jock, besides "OMG I'm roleplaying a psycho!"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Is there ever a reason to do anything fun besides "OMG I'm roleplaying a psycho!"?

Edited January 6, 2006 by Child of Flame

[Llyranor]

What do you mean, "roleplaying"?

[Child of Flame]

It's a combination of sploitz and XP Farming.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Is there ever any reason to kill Manderley or Jock, besides "OMG I'm roleplaying a psycho!"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Is there any reason why my actions are negated in hamfisted ways, besides "OMG designers don't want the thin line that holds their games to disappear!"?

 

What do you mean, "roleplaying"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Putting on my robe and wizard hat. And equipping the ring.

[Deraldin]

Is there ever any reason to kill Manderley or Jock, besides "OMG I'm roleplaying a psycho!"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Is there any reason why my actions are negated in hamfisted ways, besides "OMG designers don't want the thin line that holds their games to disappear!"?

 

What do you mean, "roleplaying"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Putting on my robe and wizard hat. And equipping the ring.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Would you rather it allow you to kill them then come up with a screen that says "You loser! You weren't supposed to kill them! You just *beep*ed the storyline. Reload for your last save and don't do something so foolish again!"?

 

Actually now that I think of it, that would be kinda neat... "

[LadyCrimson]

The closest I come to feeling like "I'm there" is when I'm so obsessed I forget about the time or that my butt is numb from sitting. A kind of tunnel-vision thing - at best, it's as if I'm watching a movie via some kind of 3-d glasses surround-o-vision, perhaps.

 

I've never felt like I was actually the character I was playing....not even close. There's always the awareness that I'm controlling an avatar, because...well...my hands are on a keyboard, y'know. If I'm aware I'm playing an avatar, I'm aware it's not real. Plus the wonky physics like being able to jump over lava flows that would burn you alive just from the heat...haha

 

If they get to the point of something like Lawnmower man, where every physical move you make is reflected in the gameworld, then....well...that would be neat, wouldn't it? heh

[BattleCookiee]

If they get to the point of something like Lawnmower man, where every physical move you make is reflected in the gameworld, then....well...that would be neat, wouldn't it? heh

 

Yes. Make it like the Matrix, so if your avatar dies you also get executed in real-life.

 

Wait, let's not do that.

 

Fun part of games is that it isn't 100% realism, I prefer it if gamedesigners made the gameplay fun above realism...

[LadyCrimson]

If they get to the point of something like Lawnmower man, where every physical move you make is reflected in the gameworld, then....well...that would be neat, wouldn't it? heh

 

Yes. Make it like the Matrix, so if your avatar dies you also get executed in real-life.

 

Well, yeah, that'd be going too far. :D

I'd still like it if when I moved my arm, my arm in a game moved. You can have some of that virtual reality without the death part. Tho I suppose those with certain medical conditions might still have problems...

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Would you rather it allow you to kill them then come up with a screen that says "You loser! You weren't supposed to kill them! You just *beep*ed the storyline. Reload for your last save and don't do something so foolish again!"?

 

I'd rather they had designed the game in a way that considered the possibility of players trying to think outside the box and came up with proper contingencies, instead of giving the player possibilities he'll never be able to carry out. Played Invisible War? In the game there was an impediment to using weapons in certain establishments which, although would seem limiting, created the necessary background reasoning for it. You couldn't shoot anyone but there was a reason for this, and gamewise it was neither creating false expectations or giving a false sense of freedom. Whereas in the prequel, you could shoot everyone but there was no reason why they'd stand there, never dying - except because the designers hadn't actually thought beyond what would happen to the story if the player did something like that. Even a ginormous UNATCO assault squad coming into the office and pumping JC full of lead after he'd kill Manderley would be preferable, as it would provide a more credible situation.

[Llyranor]

Why would you guys need to roleplay psychos?

 

I mean, it's not like any of you aren't alrea.... never mind.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Why would you guys need to roleplay psychos?

 

I mean, it's not like any of you aren't alrea.... never mind.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I remember playing Soldier of Fortune and really getting to the point of fixating at polygon corpses. There was something strangely appealing about slicing dead bodies which would still jiggle and get additional cuts.

[Llyranor]

But were you 'roleplaying', or just being yoursel.... haha, never mind.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Actually...

 

 

[Gabrielle]

^Cool images. Blood.

[LadyCrimson]

You did all that with a little knife? Remind me not to make you angry. :D

[Gabrielle]

Soldier of Fortune? Is it on PC?