Judge Hades Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 (edited) Yes. AIs are still too dumb to allow real strategic combat for optimal death against the enemy and they won't be for a very very very long time. So, the only way for the NPCs to act intelligently in combat is to have the player have control. Edited January 1, 2006 by Judge Hades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volourn Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 "AIs are still too dumb to allow real strategic combat for optimal death against the enemy and they won't be for a very very very long time. So, the only way for the NPCs to act intelligently in combat is to have the player have control." True or not, still doens't mean controlling npcs like slaves in battles = role-playing 'cause it doesn't. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 To you no, to me yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karka Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 (in battle) - Hey, you! Use your acid arrow and take that shaman orc over there. I'd do it myself but i am a bit busy with these goblins. And you! Some one will try to backstab me! Kill him quickly with your Long Sword. Use your Power attack. And Priest! Use your healing powers as soon as possible! Because, i am dying! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagan Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 As opposed to what? "No! Don't go there, it's a trap!" (2 seconds later) "Doh!" <_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 That dialog would only work if Bruce Campbell was the voice actor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dyan Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 I want Kotor style control of NPCs. Proper NPCs that I can interact and chat with. That way, I can let the AI take control, and if I need to, "tab" to them and manually control them myself. Best of both worlds. Probably. HK47: Commentary: It is not possible to destroy the master. It is suggested that you run while my blasters warm, meatbags. Bastila to Revan: You are easily the vainest, most arrogant man I have ever met! Canderous to Bastila: Insults? Maybe if your master had trained your lightsaber to be as quick as your tongue you could have escaped those Vulkars, you spoiled little Jedi princess! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karka Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 I gave that example for the full party control. No one give that exact orders in the heat of a battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dyan Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 I gave that example for the full party control. No one give that exact orders in the heat of a battle. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sorry, I must have missed it. I only scanned the previous posts. As to exact orders, maybe if they introduced Psionics to NWN2 you could telepathically command them :D HK47: Commentary: It is not possible to destroy the master. It is suggested that you run while my blasters warm, meatbags. Bastila to Revan: You are easily the vainest, most arrogant man I have ever met! Canderous to Bastila: Insults? Maybe if your master had trained your lightsaber to be as quick as your tongue you could have escaped those Vulkars, you spoiled little Jedi princess! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karka Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 Kotor's style was cool. I hardy used tab key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atreides Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 I use mind control leeches to synchronise my party to The Collective. Spreading beauty with my katana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 I want Kotor style control of NPCs. Proper NPCs that I can interact and chat with. That way, I can let the AI take control, and if I need to, "tab" to them and manually control them myself. Best of both worlds. Probably. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No bloody hell. KotOR was the worse at party controlling ever. When I tried to do anything that required strategy the game would f**k it up. Such as on the star forge area. I was trying to get to a specific location. I had to move each individual to that location but when I remove player control back to AI the freaking AI would have them run off instead of staying put. HELL NO ON KOTOR CONTROL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaftan Barlast Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 (edited) But fact is that most companies dont have the time a resources to spend on AI that is necessary for it to be able to handle itself. A friend of mine who is a programmer put it like this "Ok, youve got a week to code the AI and remember that you cant assign more than 5% of the processing power for the AI runtime" (in battle) - Hey, you! Use your acid arrow and take that shaman orc over there. I'd do it myself but i am a bit busy with these goblins. And you! Some one will try to backstab me! Kill him quickly with your Long Sword. Use your Power attack. And Priest! Use your healing powers as soon as possible! Because, i am dying! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The combat choices you make in ToEE or BG reflect the other party members competence and ability to act coordinated, its not like the PC is shouting orders of such a specific nature. A cleric would understand that the mage need healing and the fighter would know that he need to get out of the sorceres line of fire. But combat is gameplay, not roleplay. Its function is to add excitement and tactical challenge to a game, both computer and PnP. Youre not rolelaying when mowing down raiders in Fallout and youre not roleplaying when you race hoverbikes in KoTOR. Edited January 1, 2006 by Kaftan Barlast DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 That is why I like to be able to control my party BG style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaftan Barlast Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 I just want to feel like Im playing a game and not watching a demo film of one. DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Di Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 Controllable, without doubt. I love BG-style party play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llyranor Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 Oddly enough, in Brothers In Arms (and FPS, OMG, burn the heretic!!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHA BURN!!!!!!!!), you could have a very good command of your squad without actually having controllable NPCs. Yep, it's a FPS, so you were basically only controlling your character. There was a good command scheme that allowed you to give quick orders to your allies. Suppress these baddies, move to the location, rush them now! This allowed some cool enough tactics. One team would be suppressing the enemy, while you commanded another to sneak around back and flank them. Furthermore, this was in the context of AI-controlled NPCs. They were smart enough to take cover wherever they were, or retaliate well enough if you didn't give any orders. That would be more what 'a leader barking orders' would be like, not absolute control. If anything like that, the AI should be self-sufficient, with you giving more specific orders some of the time. The problem really is that AI in most RPGs can be really dumb, dumber than some forum members here. Casting inappropriate spells, walking into traps, etc. That, and the control scheme in NWN was abysmal. The orders they allowed you were pretty crappy. (Approved by Fio, so feel free to use it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karka Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 But fact is that most companies dont have the time a resources to spend on AI that is necessary for it to be able to handle itself. A friend of mine who is a programmer put it like this "Ok, youve got a week to code the AI and remember that you cant assign more than 5% of the processing power for the AI runtime" (in battle) - Hey, you! Use your acid arrow and take that shaman orc over there. I'd do it myself but i am a bit busy with these goblins. And you! Some one will try to backstab me! Kill him quickly with your Long Sword. Use your Power attack. And Priest! Use your healing powers as soon as possible! Because, i am dying! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The combat choices you make in ToEE or BG reflect the other party members competence and ability to act coordinated, its not like the PC is shouting orders of such a specific nature. A cleric would understand that the mage need healing and the fighter would know that he need to get out of the sorceres line of fire. But combat is gameplay, not roleplay. Its function is to add excitement and tactical challenge to a game, both computer and PnP. Youre not rolelaying when mowing down raiders in Fallout and youre not roleplaying when you race hoverbikes in KoTOR. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> For you combat is gameplay not roleplay, for me it is a part of roleplay. For you full party control is good for me it kills roleplaying. Our point of views are completely different. There is nothing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaftan Barlast Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 For you combat is gameplay not roleplay, for me it is a part of roleplay. For you full party control is good for me it kills roleplaying. Our point of views are completely different. There is nothing to do. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Alrightie then. But could you, to satisfy our curiosity explain why you feel that being able to control your party kills roleplaying? And could you give a few examples of games that you liked and games when control bothered you? DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darque Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 Pause? No, why? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm just wondering if you actually take control of all 6 party members without using pauses...if you do, then, well, that is incredible. I could never game like that. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If I had all the 6 doing different things I might have trouble, but I tend to move and shoot as my main strategy... it's easy to control a herd of ranged units. Maybe it's all my RTS experience working for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plano Skywalker Posted January 1, 2006 Author Share Posted January 1, 2006 it is true that good AI eats up system resources and that is one reason it has not been well-implemented in cRPGs. Oblivion will be a huge test case in this area...they claim that all NPCs will have "non-scripted AI" which means it is not just a bunch of sequential scripts but actually tries to come up with the best solution based on the circumstances. Of course, Oblivion will probably not have henchmen (the other ES games do not) so it may not tell us as much as we'd like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabrielle Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 BG style for reasons already mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantousent Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 Just a warning, I'm going to be double posting. I'm reposting things from the NWN2 forum. [repost]I've seen a few of these topics here and there. I hope that Obsidian sees the error of Bioware's ways and includes a toggle for full party control. I noticed that the original poster stated he'd go for "strategy" over "realism." The ridiculously stupid henchmen in NWN 1 are not "realistic." Our suspension of disbelief should be reserved for folks casting magic spells and the existence of fire-breathing dragons. We should not be forced to believe that a mid to high level character, from fighters to mages, cannot discuss and carry out a complex plans with the PC. Even a barbarian must have the ability to come up with a plan and follow it from time to time./repost Here's another repost in answer to the ever shrill "you can't control more than one character in PnP!!!11112321!~" [repost]I am quite glad to have the opportunity to control party members in combat. As far as dialogue goes, I can live with it both ways. I don't mind the computer handling the dialogue as long as everything is well scripted. Did I mention that I'm glad that I won't have artificial stupidity handling my NPCs? If my NPCs act stupid in combat, I'd like that stupidity to arise from my very own head, not the deficiencies of the computer. I await with baited breath folks giving me pages upon pages of examples of why player control is bad where AS control is good. Here, let me quote from myself from another thread regarding NPCs. Until there is another human being playing the NPC with reliable voice communication, NWN2 simply can't be like PnP. Folks who say, "but in DnD, the player can't control the NPC!" fail to recognize that the players can discuss things at length with an NPC. Neither direct control nor Artificial Stupidity reflect the nature of a PnP game where the DM plays the NPC. In a PnP game, the conversation might be as follows: Far Thel (player character): Okay, Grog, we know what's in the room ahead. There's a group of skeletons in the room guarding a cleric we know will be in the back. You're pretty good at tumbling, so why don't you jump past the skeletons and keep the heat on the cleric while I attack the skeletons? Grog (DM NPC): I dunno, boss. I not like fighting with back to skeletons. Far Thel: I'll take care of the skeletons, buddy. You just keep that cleric busy or he's going to start casting *shrug* who knows what? DM rolls the dice or flips a coin or simply decides. Grog: No. I no want that. DM rolls the dice or flips a coin or simply decides. Far Latere (DM NPC): Perhaps, if I could make a suggestion... Far Thel: We could use one. Far Latere: Maybe I could cast a spell? Far Thel: Ah, yes, you could cast silence. Great idea! The point is, if NPC are supposed to be like real people, then they should act like real people in all respects. Sure, they might refuse to do something. They might decide to do something. They might make a suggestion. They might agree to do something but then react to a changing situation. It is beyond to ability of the game to recreate PnP NPCs. Since that's the case, I don't see why AI is better than party control. Not only that, but there will apparently be an option for either one. AI can't be any worse for NWN2 than it was for NWN1, so the "real" PnP gamers *scoff* should be able to feel superior. The party control, however, will be a vast improvement for those of us who hated the way NWN1 worked. This was another great decision that leads me to believe that Obsidian felt the pain of single player gamers and decided to give us a break./repost I can live with AI contolled NPCs. Folks telling me that AI controlled NPCs more accurately reflect a PnP game obviously have a terrible DM. As far as pausing in the game goes, if that's an area of contention, you'll find me more than willing to contend. Fionavar's Holliday Wishes to all members of our online community: Happy Holidays Join the revelry at the Obsidian Plays channel:Obsidian Plays Remembering tarna, Phosphor, Metadigital, and Visceris. Drink mead heartily in the halls of Valhalla, my friends! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karka Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 Alrightie then. But could you, to satisfy our curiosity explain why you feel that being able to control your party kills roleplaying? And could you give a few examples of games that you liked and games when control bothered you? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Dunno! It just hurts role playing for me. I don't like to level up and distribute skill points of other party members for them. I don't like to be a puppet master. I just want to play a single character. Even, if it means bloody stupid henchmen, it's ok for me. Still better than full party control. And, any stupid AI is clever than a puppet. A puppet is clever as long as i control it. And usually i don't bother to control them, 'cause i don't like it. FO style is good. VtM: B style is good. Even KOTOR style is good. And don't get me wrong. I don't like to control whole party but still i love BG series or IWD series. Still, there are enough reasons to love them. I don't throw my BG disks for only i don't like the full party control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyCrimson Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 I haven't played BG/NWN etc in ages but I like controllable in any game. Having the AI there as a back-up or for smaller fights is fine, but being able to grab control must be there for when I want it. “Things are as they are. Looking out into the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.” – Alan Watts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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