Hmm... Change of mind

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Suffer for sure under Vaklu, OR take some casualities and suffer from Sith occupation IF Republic really loss war and collapse (BTW, Taris surendered to the Sith, and was blown up nevertheles  ). I will take the chance  .

 

I think it collapses several times in the 4000 years between KOTOR and EPII.

 

But still exists. Every country got its rises and falls. Remember Sith Empire ? It was totalitaristyc autoritharian empire and lost war badly to the "non efficient" Republic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It depends on what the Sith do. Remember Carthage ?

 

Do you mean the Empire from the OT ? The only reason it was beaten is because Luke or Anakin (depends on your PoV and I dont really care) Killed the dictator. Thats how you win a war against a dictatorship. If not they would have been massacared by the new death star.

 

Thats probably why Revan buggered off he was going to find a way to stop the Sith from the top.

[Czulu]

It depends on what the Sith do. Remember Carthage ?

 

Yep, but both Romans and Siths wanted to rule things rather then turn anything in their reach into smoldering ruins. Onderon could have bad luck and become an "example" to the galaxy what happens with resisting systems (similar as Alderaan), but there is not to big probability of happening this. And the Cartage was a "personnal" matter

 

Do you mean the Empire from the OT ?

 

Nope, i mean Sith Empire from "Golden age of the Sith Empire" comics.

 

And BTW, if memory serves, the DS II shield was down even before Anakin throw Palpatine into that hole.

Edited December 7, 2005 by Czulu

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Yep, but both Romans and Siths wanted to rule things rather then turn anything in their reach into smoldering ruins. Onderon could have bad luck and become an "example" to the galaxy what happens with resisting systems (similar as Alderaan), but there is not to big probability of happening this. And the Cartage was a "personnal" matter

 

Nope, i mean Sith Empire from "Golden age of the Sith Empire" comics.

 

And BTW, if memory serves, the DS II shield was down even before Anakin throw Palpatine into that hole.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Under the Queens leadership that would have been what Onderon would become though. It's simply looking at the characters of the two leaders. Same thing happened to Alderan if you recall.

 

Ewww.

 

Dosnt really matter, the point is they realised that the only way to stop the Empire was to kill the emporer. Which is probably much the same revelation Revan had after he got his memories back and realised what a mess Malak had left.

Edited December 7, 2005 by ShadowPaladin V1.0

[Czulu]

The Queen would be quickly relieved from lidership if Sith take over the Onderon. And i dont really think so they will just turn it into barren rock instead of conquering it, because this planet wasnt enouch significant target to organise such "demonstration". Besides, you was speaking about "big picture" arent you ? In big picture, the sacrifice of some systems could save countles lives that could be eventually lost due to Sith oppresions.

[Musopticon?]

Nope, the big picture is that you can't give up a losing battle.

[Czulu]

Sry man but if you think that giving up to the Siths is the best way, and saving yours ass is the most important, thats not my problem.

[Musopticon?]

So why do you continue this diatribe then, if it's "not your problem"?

[Czulu]

Because i like interesting discussions ? But i like to discuss arguments not statements.

[Musopticon?]

Ah, you misunderstood me. When I wrote "losing battle", I meant your argument with SP 1.0 not some bloody planet.

[Czulu]

Nope, i unterstand You quite well. Just dont see single reason why its better to surrender to Sith rather then fight for freedom. Its true thats some times its better to dont fight (just to save live and be able to fight tommorow ), but, for a Gods sake, the Sith arent unbeatable, and The Republic was still existing ater few thousands years after KotoRs.

[Commissar]

Except that when you wake up in the med lab, you have no clue that any of that happened.  Which meant that my first time through, I was playing as a nice guy, and all of a sudden, (near the end, no less -- I didn't like Bao-Dur enough to influence him) "Hey, you were personally responsible for exterminating both sides in the war with some gravity generators."  Gee, that'll let me determine the character.  Oh, yeah, and apparently Atris was important to me somehow, as I was forced to go fight her and say meaningful things to her, even though I didn't give a flying fig about her and she had approximately three minutes of screen time.  KotOR offers at least that much definition simply with what you do after your character figures out they're Revan.  There are at least options for reacting to the knowledge and going to the dark side because of it.  I felt more hidebound and restricted with the Exile because there wasn't even the illusion of determining the character's background.  It was all written out for you.

I believe we didn't play the same game, then. I didn't find out about the shadow generator from Bao-Dur, either, but I'm positive that I knew about it from somebody well before the end. I'm also going to assume you just sped your way through the dialogues with Atris the first time through Telos - they're your first real chance to define why your character disobeyed the Jedi Council and went to war against the Mandalorians. The cave on Korriban is another good place to piece some things together and decide, with the benefit of hindsight, if you made the right decision.

 

Atris wasn't necessarily important to you; you were important to Atris. You fight her, quite simply, because that's where Kreia's gone off to. If you did indeed play through as a good guy, there's plenty of reason to care that she's gone to the dark side, as she's the single biggest holder of Jedi knowledge in the galaxy at that point.

 

I got the impression very early on that the Exile had fought in the Mandalorian wars as a general under Revan, but that was about it. His reasons for doing so, and the decision as to whether or not it was the right choice, are entirely left up to the player. I would argue that's much more open than being informed the character is in fact a former Sith lord halfway through the game.

 

The Republic is Failing?  I had yet to see evidence of that, all you had were people complaining that the aftermath of war made life hard.  Again, what's the difference between that and the whole "Jedi tend to make life harder" in the first game?

Again, I'm not sure how you never came by this knowledge, but I know that Onderon specifically brings up the point that the planet is providing more for the Republic than the Republic is providing for the planet, and that if it leaves, the Republic is likely to continue to fall. There's similar information passed on in the cantina on Telos, if memory serves.

 

Unless, of course, you didn't have enough influence with her.

 

"Hey, Kreia, can I ask you a question that would advance the plot?"

 

Influence: Failure.  "No, shut up."

Once again, I had horrible influence with Kreia throughout the game, and I still got all of the necessary information about her background from her, including the cut scene.

 

And that's precisely how I felt in Sith Lords.  "By the way, you were a General in the Mandalorian wars responsible for the biggest slaughter ever and you're too dumb to tell Kreia to take a hike even though you can pretty much tell she's out to destroy you as soon as she wakes up."  There's no point in playing that character; all the important decisions were made before you even put your hands on the controls.

I didn't get the impression that Kreia was out to destroy the Exile from the beginning. In fact, I didn't get that impression anywhere in the game. An unreliable mentor, certainly, but throughout the course of the plot there are several cutscenes where she goes to great length to ensure NPCs are going to protect you, not destroy you.

 

The only decisions made for you about the character are the fact that he fought against the Mandalorians and activated the Mass Shadow Generator on Revan's orders. That's it. And, once again, the reasons for such actions are completely left up to the player.

 

There wasn't a single conversation option that really dealt with your being a wound in the force.  There was little stuff like, "Oh, hi Disciple, I'm a wound in the Force!"

 

Disciple: "Oh, I love you anyway."

 

"That's great, but why isn't Atton here, since he's the one I've been paying attention to all game?"

 

Disciple: "Ummm . . ."

 

At least in the first game, the characters reacted to your being Revan.

 

In Sith Lords, aside from Kreia wanting to destroy the universe, nobody cares.  Your companions mysteriously vanish on the trip to Malachor.  Why?

There were plenty of conversations that dealt with the nature of the Exile's relationship to the Force. I'm thinking of a certain showdown on Dantooine in particular, and a holorecording or two.

 

And you're making the mistake that a lot of people who seem to dislike the game make; you're trusting unreliable narrators. There are enough contradictions to make me doubt what anybody, Jedi Masters included, tell you throughout the game, mostly because they don't seem to know for sure. Kreia has a theory that she's ready to act on. The Council has a different theory that they're ready to act on. Visas objects to the Council's theory at one point. All that's made clear is that no one really knows what the hell's going on with you. Me? I like Visas' version.

 

As for nobody reacting to you, I'm not sure what you mean by that. You're not a hugely known name in the galaxy like Revan. Bao-Dur's the only one of your companions aside from Kreia and possibly Mandalore who knows anything at all about your origins, and he's in essentially the exact same boat as you. Your guy pushed a button and that's about it. Everyone knows Truman ordered the bomb dropped on Hiroshima, but I for one don't know the names of the crew of the Enola Gay. Same deal.

Edited December 7, 2005 by Commissar

[Kalfear]

At least, while Malak is not deep (afterall, his main purpose is to antagonize the player) I'd rtaher have a 'shallow, obvious' villain than a 'shallow, obvious' villian who talks a lot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Yes! At least you had two planets in KotOR where you didn't know what was going on.

 

Give the two planet thing a rest already. Volo is a known hater of 2 (hell Mario from Mario Bros, could have been villian in part 1 and she would have prefered it)and your just making up stuff as you go along now. Stick to the fa ts and not made up fantasy.

 

 

There I profoundly disagree, but it's certainly a matter of preference. I prefer clean slate characters, characters that I can actually make on my own. I can figure out their motivations, their histories, etc. While not perfect in that regard, II does offer it much more than I; in the original, I can't help feeling like Bioware's loaning me their character for a couple of hours. In II, when you think about it, not all that much of the Exile's history is truly written, and the game offers you plenty of choices to clarify things. Why he disobeyed the Council, why he came back to face its judgment, whether it was actually the right choice, why he cares about the Sith stalking through the galaxy, even, to a certain extent, the nature of the whole "wound in the Force" bit. I got the impression that neither Kreia nor the Council truly knew just what the hell was up with the Exile; both seemed to me like they were guessing. The common assumption is that the Exile was, in fact, leeching power or life or whatever off of others, but I would argue that there's too much ambiguity for this to be accepted as fact.

 

In plain English, you can do a lot more towards making the character a product of your creation rather than a Bioware loaner.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Except that when you wake up in the med lab, you have no clue that any of that happened. Which meant that my first time through, I was playing as a nice guy, and all of a sudden, (near the end, no less -- I didn't like Bao-Dur enough to influence him) "Hey, you were personally responsible for exterminating both sides in the war with some gravity generators." Gee, that'll let me determine the character. Oh, yeah, and apparently Atris was important to me somehow, as I was forced to go fight her and say meaningful things to her, even though I didn't give a flying fig about her and she had approximately three minutes of screen time. KotOR offers at least that much definition simply with what you do after your character figures out they're Revan. There are at least options for reacting to the knowledge and going to the dark side because of it. I felt more hidebound and restricted with the Exile because there wasn't even the illusion of determining the character's background. It was all written out for you.

 

yah, and waking up in crew quarters to find out you have no memory of being transfered to Republic Ship was so much better.

 

Babbon, if your going to complain about one item, STAY CONSISTANT! BOTH games played the no memory angle and BOTH games gave you just enough info to keep going from the start! NEITHER was better then the other in this regard.

 

There are lots of ambiguous elements like that. Onderon's a good example: though it's clear that Queen Whoever is the light side choice, and General Whatshisface is the dark side choice, the actual logical reasoning behind the factions could give you pause. The Republic of the game is failing, costing more than it's benefiting the planet, and the guys behind the General want out of the system, knowing that they can prosper on their own. Is that such a bad thing?

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Republic is Failing? I had yet to see evidence of that, all you had were people complaining that the aftermath of war made life hard. Again, what's the difference between that and the whole "Jedi tend to make life harder" in the first game?

 

What are you, blind?????

 

Of course the Republic is failing!!! Thats the whole theme to K2. If you didnt understand this one easy and OVERSTATED fact its no wonder you failed to grasp even the most basic of game concepts!

 

Lets see,

 

1) If Telos fails so does the planet restoration project by the republic

2) If Onderon seperates it will leave the Republic blind to attack, kill off planet restoration, AND ruin trade with in the Republic

and if those 2 not enough

3) GOTO TELLS YOU POINT BLANK THE REPUBLIC IS FAILING AND GOING BANKRUPT!

 

Seriously, how much more do you need???????

 

It's as creative as the player wants it to be , within the confines of framework presented by the game. There were very few absolute truths in KOTOR II after all.Even at the end you never really knew if Kriea intended to go through with her plan, or if she had intended to lose all along and her only purpose was to prepare you to face the real threat. Shades of Rave Master there

 

Since In KOTOR I'd worked out by planet II that I was in fact playing a pregenerated character it removed the point of a background completely. Following the game until it finaly caught up with me was a rather empty roleplaying experience since it was clear that I was following nothing more than a script which I had no power to influence beyond the most trivial ways.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And that's precisely how I felt in Sith Lords. "By the way, you were a General in the Mandalorian wars responsible for the biggest slaughter ever and you're too dumb to tell Kreia to take a hike even though you can pretty much tell she's out to destroy you as soon as she wakes up." There's no point in playing that character; all the important decisions were made before you even put your hands on the controls.

 

ROFLMAO!

 

Lets see, the sith attack you and only real defence you have is to regain your connection to the force. Your reconnection is TIED to Kreia. So your dumb by NOT getting rid of her??????

 

Are you on drugs?

 

Of course you dont get rid of her!!!!!! Shes the glue that binds your survival.

 

Not to mention the whole bound thing that could be leathal to you.

 

Wow, you really like jumping to conclusions and outcomes based soly on your dislikes and bias rather then storyline dont you!

 

How about you ACTUALLY play the game and this time READ the storyline before you bitch about it. Would be a step in right direction and probably answer 99% of your false assumptions regarding storyline.

 

PS: For other poster that KEEPS saying he doesnt understand whats going on once he hits Dant in K2 (im guessing hes refering to when you face the 3 masters on Dant).

 

HOW CAN YOU NOT UNDERSTAND????

 

Even with all the cut content in K2, that part made PERFECT sence and the masters AND Kreia AND Handmaiden (after the fact) All explained the whys so a grade One student could understand.

 

Maybe you dont AGREE with what the masters did, thats something totally different, and even I ( a huge K2 fan) would agree their attempting to strip the force from you would be very unjedi like! BUT THEY EXPLAINED THEIR ACTIONS FULLY! All you had to do was read what they said. The logic was flawed for sure, but there is NO way to not understand it.

 

Sorry just hate when people complain about something thats so straight forward and basic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Like, oh, that I said it was the stuff after Dantooine that made no sense? What could be more straightforward and basic than that sentence? Yeesh.

 

After Dantooine and Kreia kills the masters I said to myself, "well, that's an interesting idea; let's see where they go with it."

 

And, in the following order:

 

You go fight Atris, who's gone to the dark side. Great. Why should we care when she got no more than three minutes of "complain about you" screen time.

 

Well IF you had actually played the game you would understand

1) you goto Atris TO SAVE HANDMAIDEN. Shes gone there to get Kreia.

But if that alone is not enough for you

2) Atris is SITH not jedi and misrepresenting herself to others

3) Atris has MANY artifacts from the Jedi and Sith hidden away

4) Ect (there is a ton of reason that you would understand IF you played the game)

 

 

You got to Citadel Station, fight some sith, plant some bombs and fight Nihilus. Great. Again, why should we care? He had even less personality than Atris, and that's saying something.

 

So now (by your standards) Nimbus is senceless even though it ends the storyline with Visas completely, ties in the MAndalorians, eliminates THE MOST DEADLY ENEMY THE REPUBLIC EVER SEEN??? Again are you on drugs?

 

PLAY THE GAME AND PAY ATTENTION TO THE STORYLINE. YOUR ABOVE STATEMENT JUST SHOWS YOU HAVE NO CLUE WHAT YOUR SPEAKING ABOUT.

 

You go to Malachor V. Apparently, your companions were all sucked out of an air hatch between Telos and Malachor, ecxcept Kreia talks about them in one of her innumerable cut scenes.

 

You go kill Sion. Not that that has any real meaning, either, the only thing he's done the entire game is cut off Kreia's hand, for which he ought to be rewarded, not punished.

 

You go fight Kreia, who explains her intention to wipe out the universe, then tries to kill you with four lightsabers.

 

Everyone and their dog has said Malachor V was poorly done. Thats hardly ground breaking news.

 

But to question why you fight Sion????? Hell why dont you complain about fighting Malak in K1. Because both statements would carry as much weight as the other!

 

PLAY THE GAME BEFORE YOU WHINE!

 

Okies, IF you think that was Kreias intentions then you have NEVER played the game! Its that obvious! You dont have the FIRST clue as to why Kreia is doing what she is doing and her motives behind her actions!

 

PLAY THE GAME BEFORE YOU WHINE!

 

 

After that conversation on Dantooine, I expected some real depth (that word's been floating around this thread) and interesting choices.

 

I didn't even get the choice of who to take on the Ravager with me.

 

There wasn't a single conversation option that really dealt with your being a wound in the force. There was little stuff like, "Oh, hi Disciple, I'm a wound in the Force!"

 

ummmm, lets see, wound was dealt with by Nimbus, Kreia, Atris, and Sion all after Dant. Perhaps if you had even the faintest clue what you were speaking about you would realize this!

 

PLAY THE GAME BEFORE YOU WHINE!

 

 

Disciple: "Oh, I love you anyway."

 

"That's great, but why isn't Atton here, since he's the one I've been paying attention to all game?"

 

Disciple: "Ummm . . ."

 

At least in the first game, the characters reacted to your being Revan.

 

Well since the story was designed for a male exile maybe you should play it as a male exile and see how all the stuff falls into place! The female option is fun sure but for main and complete story, play game as actually designed and not as how you want it designed!

 

The main romances are Visas and Handmaiden and story unfolds perfectly with them in group and as the romance options!

 

 

In Sith Lords, aside from Kreia wanting to destroy the universe, nobody cares. Your companions mysteriously vanish on the trip to Malachor. Why?

 

Geee, and you didnt get a choice on who to take into Temple on ancient planet either! But guess since thats part 1 thats all ok. Game was designed for Malachor to be solo, like it or not! Thats your answer so quit bitching about some small part thats so minor it doesnt even play into equation.

 

Id ask if you were so bad a player you couldnt do Malachor solo but since its obvious you have never played the game and argueing based what you have read here on boards we all already know the answer!

 

PLAY THE GAME BEFORE YOU WHINE!

 

 

What I found confusing was that they were building up to something cool, deep, and thematic with the revelation on Dantooine, and then proceeded to treat you to a few hours of boring hack-n-slash as a reward.

 

Gee and the Star Forge wasnt hack and slash! Nice double standard!

 

 

I had hoped that the boring hack-n-slash would have been done with after Peragus.

 

oh ya, lets stop the hack and slash after the introduction of the game! Thats a reasonable request! (shakes head in disgust)

 

but let me guess, the hack and slash in K1 on EVERY PLANET YOU WENT TO was all done masterfully and was ok right?

 

 

It's not good writing. It's not deep writing. It's absent writing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It was deep good writing, the fact you have missed 90% of the story as you either never played game or treated it like K1 or Halo shows how deep it was. If you actually read (listened to) what was said rather then running around thinking it was a no mind linear path you would have gotten ALOT more outta it!

 

Dont blame the game for your OWN inability to comprehend and understand the spoken and written meanings of words in the game!

 

 

But not helping Vaklu would have left the galaxy open for invasion by the Sith.

So it's not so much a choice of good or evil, but a lesser evil or allowing in a greater evil by supporting a failing rebublic.

 

Vaklu would likely sell out to the Sith right away and thus leave the planet intact and act a puppet "ruler". The republic would fight , lose and the planet would be reduced to rubble.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Gotta disagree Shadow. Helping Valku leaves republic open to attack. Helping the queen ensures Onderon stays in republic. Siding with Queen was the smart and clearly light side choice!

 

Sideing with Valku would ensure the falling of the Republic and Onderon!

 

Commie, Potent and Kalfear; I'd just drop it. It's really not worth the effort to rebute someone nicked "Bandobras Took".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

True Must! Its pretty obvious Band has never actually played K2 and just argueing to be a idiot! If he/she had played game, many of his/her complaints would have been answered and he/she wouldnt be posting about them.

 

That or he/she just plays games like you would play Halo and ignores storyline completely then complains when storyline wasnt so basic and force fed to him/her so he/she can understand!

 

Either way, only person stopping Band from understanding K2 storyline is Band! Not Obsidian, not the players, not the game!

Edited December 7, 2005 by Kalfear

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Nope, i unterstand You quite well. Just dont see single reason why its better to surrender to Sith rather then fight for freedom. Its true thats some times its better to dont fight (just to save live and be able to fight tommorow ), but, for a Gods sake, the Sith arent unbeatable, and The Republic was still existing ater few thousands years after KotoRs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm not sure the people of Alderan would agree with you.

In the context of the big picture we are talking about Onderon. Sacrficing things is not something that the queen would do. She's not the type unless it's her own life. She would certainly not sacrifice the people of Onderon since she is their queen. Vaklu on the other hand would do it without a second thought.

 

Revan who is likely the premier strategic and tactical thinking of that age would appear to disagree. Otherwise there would have been no need for an alternate solution he could have simply led the army.

 

Revan though is the sort of general who makes democracies VERY uncomfortable since his methods win wars not friends. Like with the example of the Mass Shadow Generator.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I quite frankly cant be arsed with the long post so I'll just say this.

 

KOTOR did not let you drop characters that you found worthless or annoying. I'd have cheerfully left Bastila on Tarsis if I could. KOTOR also didnt let you kill anyone until the story decided you could (like on the planet at the end) this is simply because storytelling duties done the characters are obsolete. If that wasnt the case then I could have killed Zaalbaar on Tarsis too.

 

Even then it's a very different thing from giving away the big suprise twist with ingame evidence on Kashyyk. And then having no ability to act on said evidence again in game.

 

As far as background I'd put it in the same ballpark as being a Child of Bhaal in BG. It's important but it's not the whole of your character, it's a story hook. There are plenty of important choices still left to make on what motivates your particular exile and what he's been doing since Malachor V.

 

Why you went to war (the council flashback) and even some of the choices you made during the war (the cave) shape the character. And the character is never snatched from your control and replaced with a pregenerated identity.

Edited December 7, 2005 by ShadowPaladin V1.0

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Gotta disagree Shadow. Helping Valku leaves republic open to attack. Helping the queen ensures Onderon stays in republic. Siding with Queen was the smart and clearly light side choice!

 

Sideing with Valku would ensure the falling of the Republic and Onderon!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In the short term yes helping the queen seems like the good course of action. However queenie as I like to call her :D has the potential to be another Princess Leai and we all know what happened to her home planet.

 

My reasons are in the other posts.

 

Oh and fix your quotes

Edited December 7, 2005 by ShadowPaladin V1.0

[Musopticon?]

Kalfear, go easy on the pills. I'd try dried frog for a while.

[Kalfear]

Gotta disagree Shadow. Helping Valku leaves republic open to attack. Helping the queen ensures Onderon stays in republic. Siding with Queen was the smart and clearly light side choice!

 

Sideing with Valku would ensure the falling of the Republic and Onderon!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In the short term yes helping the queen seems like the good course of action. However queenie as I like to call her :D has the potential to be another Princess Leai and we all know what happened to her home planet.

 

My reasons are in the other posts.

 

Oh and fix your quotes

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

lol love to but cant seem to find where its broken so just used colors instead

[Czulu]

Geee, and you didnt get a choice on who to take into Temple on ancient planet either! But guess since thats part 1 thats all ok. Game was designed for Malachor to be solo, like it or not! Thats your answer so quit bitching about some small part thats so minor it doesnt even play into equation.

 

Id ask if you were so bad a player you couldnt do Malachor solo but since its obvious you have never played the game and argueing based what you have read here on boards we all already know the answer!

 

I have to disagre with this point. In Unknown Planet youre not able to chose guys You take to the temple because it was clearly said that only FORCE USER can enter there. In Malachor you dont have single hint why you must walk solo rather then go to academy with Hadnmaiden and Visas for an instance.

Edited December 7, 2005 by Czulu

[Bandobras Took]

 

I believe we didn't play the same game, then. I didn't find out about the shadow generator from Bao-Dur, either, but I'm positive that I knew about it from somebody well before the end. I'm also going to assume you just sped your way through the dialogues with Atris the first time through Telos - they're your first real chance to define why your character disobeyed the Jedi Council and went to war against the Mandalorians. The cave on Korriban is another good place to piece some things together and decide, with the benefit of hindsight, if you made the right decision.

 

Atris wasn't necessarily important to you; you were important to Atris. You fight her, quite simply, because that's where Kreia's gone off to. If you did indeed play through as a good guy, there's plenty of reason to care that she's gone to the dark side, as she's the single biggest holder of Jedi knowledge in the galaxy at that point.

 

I got the impression very early on that the Exile had fought in the Mandalorian wars as a general under Revan, but that was about it. His reasons for doing so, and the decision as to whether or not it was the right choice, are entirely left up to the player. I would argue that's much more open than being informed the character is in fact a former Sith lord halfway through the game.

 

But in KotOR you then get to define how you respond to the knowledge. The difference for me is defining what your motivations are (KotOR) as opposed to what your motivations were (Sith Lords).

 

Again, I'm not sure how you never came by this knowledge, but I know that Onderon specifically brings up the point that the planet is providing more for the Republic than the Republic is providing for the planet, and that if it leaves, the Republic is likely to continue to fall. There's similar information passed on in the cantina on Telos, if memory serves.

 

You mention unreliable narrators further down. Most of the Onderon stuff is coming form Vaklu supporters. Of course they're going to say the Republic is failing. Likewise, trusting a crime lord (Go-To) in Nar Shadaa when he says the Republic's dying is also iffy.

 

 

Once again, I had horrible influence with Kreia throughout the game, and I still got all of the necessary information about her background from her, including the cut scene.

 

I must have royally pissed her off, then. I couldn't get her to answer positively to anything.

 

And that's precisely how I felt in Sith Lords. "By the way, you were a General in the Mandalorian wars responsible for the biggest slaughter ever and you're too dumb to tell Kreia to take a hike even though you can pretty much tell she's out to destroy you as soon as she wakes up." There's no point in playing that character; all the important decisions were made before you even put your hands on the controls.

I didn't get the impression that Kreia was out to destroy the Exile from the beginning. In fact, I didn't get that impression anywhere in the game. An unreliable mentor, certainly, but throughout the course of the plot there are several cutscenes where she goes to great length to ensure NPCs are going to protect you, not destroy you.

 

The only decisions made for you about the character are the fact that he fought against the Mandalorians and activated the Mass Shadow Generator on Revan's orders. That's it. And, once again, the reasons for such actions are completely left up to the player.

 

But it's still dealing with what your motivations were, not what they are. The focus of KotOR is not "Why did you do what you did as Revan?" so much as "What are you going to do now that you know you're Revan?"

 

 

There were plenty of conversations that dealt with the nature of the Exile's relationship to the Force. I'm thinking of a certain showdown on Dantooine in particular, and a holorecording or two.

 

 

But nothing after the big revelation. After the point that defines your character as they are now, not as they were, you get mindless battles. Nothing more.

 

And you're making the mistake that a lot of people who seem to dislike the game make; you're trusting unreliable narrators. There are enough contradictions to make me doubt what anybody, Jedi Masters included, tell you throughout the game, mostly because they don't seem to know for sure. Kreia has a theory that she's ready to act on. The Council has a different theory that they're ready to act on. Visas objects to the Council's theory at one point. All that's made clear is that no one really knows what the hell's going on with you. Me? I like Visas' version.

 

I don't trust every unreliable narrator (see above). I didn't trust Kreia from the start. What I'm talking about is getting one conversation from Disciple on the subject after the big revelation, and nothing else. Maybe I ought to reemphasize this point. I would have no problem with the game were it not for everything that happens after the revelation on Dantooine. I can put up with it in the beginning, having more of the same at the end is a major disappointment, and makes the game worse than KotOR. KotOR lives up to what it could be. Sith Lords does not.

 

As for nobody reacting to you, I'm not sure what you mean by that. You're not a hugely known name in the galaxy like Revan. Bao-Dur's the only one of your companions aside from Kreia and possibly Mandalore who knows anything at all about your origins, and he's in essentially the exact same boat as you. Your guy pushed a button and that's about it. Everyone knows Truman ordered the bomb dropped on Hiroshima, but I for one don't know the names of the crew of the Enola Gay. Same deal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm talking about your companions. Shouldn't you at least get a scene between you and Bao-Dur where you talk about his experiences during the whole Shadow Generator Incident? Nope, you're whisked right away to fight Atris. The fact that you're living off of your companion's lives ought to trigger some sort of group discussion, but it isn't there. That's the problem.

 

On the other hand, thank you for responding with well thought-out arguments. It makes a real difference from Kalfear.

 

 

At least, while Malak is not deep (afterall, his main purpose is to antagonize the player) I'd rtaher have a 'shallow, obvious' villain than a 'shallow, obvious' villian who talks a lot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Yes! At least you had two planets in KotOR where you didn't know what was going on.

 

Give the two planet thing a rest already. Volo is a known hater of 2 (hell Mario from Mario Bros, could have been villian in part 1 and she would have prefered it)and your just making up stuff as you go along now. Stick to the fa ts and not made up fantasy.

 

Ummm . . . Shadow Paladin brought up learning about being Revan on the second planet. I'm just pointing out that at least you had two planets in Sith Lords.

 

There I profoundly disagree, but it's certainly a matter of preference. I prefer clean slate characters, characters that I can actually make on my own. I can figure out their motivations, their histories, etc. While not perfect in that regard, II does offer it much more than I; in the original, I can't help feeling like Bioware's loaning me their character for a couple of hours. In II, when you think about it, not all that much of the Exile's history is truly written, and the game offers you plenty of choices to clarify things. Why he disobeyed the Council, why he came back to face its judgment, whether it was actually the right choice, why he cares about the Sith stalking through the galaxy, even, to a certain extent, the nature of the whole "wound in the Force" bit. I got the impression that neither Kreia nor the Council truly knew just what the hell was up with the Exile; both seemed to me like they were guessing. The common assumption is that the Exile was, in fact, leeching power or life or whatever off of others, but I would argue that there's too much ambiguity for this to be accepted as fact.

 

In plain English, you can do a lot more towards making the character a product of your creation rather than a Bioware loaner.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Except that when you wake up in the med lab, you have no clue that any of that happened. Which meant that my first time through, I was playing as a nice guy, and all of a sudden, (near the end, no less -- I didn't like Bao-Dur enough to influence him) "Hey, you were personally responsible for exterminating both sides in the war with some gravity generators." Gee, that'll let me determine the character. Oh, yeah, and apparently Atris was important to me somehow, as I was forced to go fight her and say meaningful things to her, even though I didn't give a flying fig about her and she had approximately three minutes of screen time. KotOR offers at least that much definition simply with what you do after your character figures out they're Revan. There are at least options for reacting to the knowledge and going to the dark side because of it. I felt more hidebound and restricted with the Exile because there wasn't even the illusion of determining the character's background. It was all written out for you.

 

yah, and waking up in crew quarters to find out you have no memory of being transferred to Republic Ship was so much better.

 

Babbon, if your going to complain about one item, STAY CONSISTANT! BOTH games played the no memory angle and BOTH games gave you just enough info to keep going from the start! NEITHER was better then the other in this regard.

 

No, in KotOR you could at least pretend to be your own character for half of the game. Sith Lords did not leave you this option. Your first conversation is that you and the Jedi parted ways and you lost the Force (now, if they had taken the approach from the first game -- made you level up in a non-jedi class because you have no connection to the Force at the start of the game, that might have worked). But no, you defied the council and lost the Force in your opening conversation.

 

There are lots of ambiguous elements like that. Onderon's a good example: though it's clear that Queen Whoever is the light side choice, and General Whatshisface is the dark side choice, the actual logical reasoning behind the factions could give you pause. The Republic of the game is failing, costing more than it's benefiting the planet, and the guys behind the General want out of the system, knowing that they can prosper on their own. Is that such a bad thing?

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Republic is Failing? I had yet to see evidence of that, all you had were people complaining that the aftermath of war made life hard. Again, what's the difference between that and the whole "Jedi tend to make life harder" in the first game?

 

What are you, blind?????

 

Of course the Republic is failing!!! Thats the whole theme to K2. If you didnt understand this one easy and OVERSTATED fact its no wonder you failed to grasp even the most basic of game concepts!

 

Lets see,

 

1) If Telos fails so does the planet restoration project by the republic

2) If Onderon seperates it will leave the Republic blind to attack, kill off planet restoration, AND ruin trade with in the Republic

and if those 2 not enough

3) GOTO TELLS YOU POINT BLANK THE REPUBLIC IS FAILING AND GOING BANKRUPT!

 

Seriously, how much more do you need???????

 

As was mentioned previously, a reliable narrator. Telos doesn't fail if you pull the fuel deal and successfully screw over Czerka. Onderon doesn't fail if you support the Queen. Therefore your first two points are essentially bunk; the Republic's not going to fail so long as some random person can travel between a couple of planets.

 

And I definitely want something more than the word of a Crime Lord involved in every single vice possible. As far as the evidence goes, the Republic still has funding to put together a major planetary restoration effort, still has the loyalty of the rulers of worlds like Onderon, and, given that they can scrape together forces for a confrontation at Citadel Station near the end of the game, their military isn't entirely defunct, even if it's stretched thin.

 

Hurt? Yes. Dying? Waiting to see the evidence.

 

And that's precisely how I felt in Sith Lords. "By the way, you were a General in the Mandalorian wars responsible for the biggest slaughter ever and you're too dumb to tell Kreia to take a hike even though you can pretty much tell she's out to destroy you as soon as she wakes up." There's no point in playing that character; all the important decisions were made before you even put your hands on the controls.

[/color]

 

ROFLMAO!

 

Lets see, the sith attack you and only real defence you have is to regain your connection to the force. Your reconnection is TIED to Kreia. So your dumb by NOT getting rid of her??????

 

Are you on drugs?

 

Of course you dont get rid of her!!!!!! Shes the glue that binds your survival.

 

Not to mention the whole bound thing that could be leathal to you.

 

Wow, you really like jumping to conclusions and outcomes based soly on your dislikes and bias rather then storyline dont you!

 

Actually, since the Jedi Masters tell you that you've been draining the Force from all your companions (you did catch that part of it, didn't you?), you didn't need Kreia after you found Atton in the Prison. Between the two, I'd rather have the person that isn't trying to manipulate me. Silly me. I mention not being able to boot Kreia out because ShadowPaladin was complaining about main character stupidity in KotOR (not catching on to the Revan thing).

 

And since my first time through, I found enough people mentioning that Kreia was probably lying about the lethal bond, I'm prepared to give that the boot, too. Frankly speaking, I'd rather she was in a nursing home somewhere with the least possibility of dying rather than wandering around with me into the middle of huge firefights. Clue #1 that she's lying: she says that battle will dampen the effects of the bond. At a time when you're relying on the Force to fuel your combat skills, the opposite should be true.

 

Maybe I'm not jumping to conclusions. Maybe I have thought things through. The least you could do is respond in an intelligent manner, as the others who feel obliged to post in this thread have done.

 

How about you ACTUALLY play the game and this time READ the storyline before you bitch about it. Would be a step in right direction and probably answer 99% of your false assumptions regarding storyline.

 

Speaking of false assumptions, how about this: you're assuming I haven't played it through (twice) and thought through the implications of what people were saying the second time. Yeesh.

 

 

Sorry just hate when people complain about something thats so straight forward and basic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Like, oh, that I said it was the stuff after Dantooine that made no sense? What could be more straightforward and basic than that sentence? Yeesh.

 

After Dantooine and Kreia kills the masters I said to myself, "well, that's an interesting idea; let's see where they go with it."

 

And, in the following order:

 

You go fight Atris, who's gone to the dark side. Great. Why should we care when she got no more than three minutes of "complain about you" screen time.

[/color]

 

Well IF you had actually played the game you would understand

1) you goto Atris TO SAVE HANDMAIDEN. Shes gone there to get Kreia.

But if that alone is not enough for you

2) Atris is SITH not jedi and misrepresenting herself to others

3) Atris has MANY artifacts from the Jedi and Sith hidden away

4) Ect (there is a ton of reason that you would understand IF you played the game)

 

Now it's my turn to laugh. Let me follow your format.

 

IF you were familiar with the game you would know that female main characters do not get Handmaiden in their party.

 

IF you had actually read through my posts, you would have heard me mentioning having Disciple in my party. So much for your first point.

 

Atris should matter if you're going to fight her. But all you get is a conversation between her and Kreia which amounts to:

 

"Oh, by the way, you follow the Dark Side."

 

"Wow, I guess I do."

 

So much for point two. I fail to find that believable.

 

I don't think I played through the game on a quest for ancient Jedi knowledge. Must have been one of the things I missed while trying to find the remaining Jedi masters to conquer the hidden Sith.

 

 

You got to Citadel Station, fight some sith, plant some bombs and fight Nihilus. Great. Again, why should we care? He had even less personality than Atris, and that's saying something.

 

So now (by your standards) Nimbus is senceless even though it ends the storyline with Visas completely, ties in the MAndalorians, eliminates THE MOST DEADLY ENEMY THE REPUBLIC EVER SEEN??? Again are you on drugs?

 

 

Yes, but what has he done recently? Unless I've actually had Visas in my party, tying up that storyline is going to mean nothing to me. About the only connection Nihilus has is that he can wipe out worlds so he must be stopped. Great. Never heard that before. Nihilus could have been interesting if we could have delved more into the parallels between him and the Exile--both living off the force. But we couldn't. It's not in there. Reducing Nihillus to nothing more than "I've got a new weapon to destroy the world! Try to stop me! Muhahahaha!"

 

PLAY THE GAME AND PAY ATTENTION TO THE STORYLINE. YOUR ABOVE STATEMENT JUST SHOWS YOU HAVE NO CLUE WHAT YOUR SPEAKING ABOUT.

 

Oh, dear. And who had no clue that Handmaiden wouldn't even have been in my party? I believe you've insulted yourself enough just by that statement. You'd do a lot better to follow Commissar's method of discussion.

 

You go to Malachor V. Apparently, your companions were all sucked out of an air hatch between Telos and Malachor, ecxcept Kreia talks about them in one of her innumerable cut scenes.

 

You go kill Sion. Not that that has any real meaning, either, the only thing he's done the entire game is cut off Kreia's hand, for which he ought to be rewarded, not punished.

 

You go fight Kreia, who explains her intention to wipe out the universe, then tries to kill you with four lightsabers.

 

Everyone and their dog has said Malachor V was poorly done. Thats hardly ground breaking news.

 

But to question why you fight Sion????? Hell why dont you complain about fighting Malak in K1. Because both statements would carry as much weight as the other!

 

PLAY THE GAME BEFORE YOU WHINE!

 

Because I actually had the opportunity to make some decisions after learning I was Revan and before fighting Malak.

 

From the time you learn about the wound in the Force until the time you fight Sion, you are whisked from one battle to another without any chance for further character development. It's hack-n-slash, and this is not what the first part of the game leads you to expect.

 

Okies, IF you think that was Kreias intentions then you have NEVER played the game! Its that obvious! You dont have the FIRST clue as to why Kreia is doing what she is doing and her motives behind her actions!

 

PLAY THE GAME BEFORE YOU WHINE!

 

Let's extrapolate a little. Kreia believes in the death of the Force.

The Force penetrates the universe, it "binds us together."

If the Force is destroyed, the universe dissolves.

 

Again, between the two of us, It's possible I'm thinking things through a bit more.

 

 

After that conversation on Dantooine, I expected some real depth (that word's been floating around this thread) and interesting choices.

 

I didn't even get the choice of who to take on the Ravager with me.

 

There wasn't a single conversation option that really dealt with your being a wound in the force. There was little stuff like, "Oh, hi Disciple, I'm a wound in the Force!"

 

ummmm, lets see, wound was dealt with by Nimbus, Kreia, Atris, and Sion all after Dant. Perhaps if you had even the faintest clue what you were speaking about you would realize this!

 

PLAY THE GAME BEFORE YOU WHINE!

 

Yeah, dealt with.

 

"Hi, you're a wound in the Force, let's kill each other!"

I found more depth in Sion Oedipal feelings for Kreia, to be honest.

 

 

Disciple: "Oh, I love you anyway."

 

"That's great, but why isn't Atton here, since he's the one I've been paying attention to all game?"

 

Disciple: "Ummm . . ."

 

At least in the first game, the characters reacted to your being Revan.

 

Well since the story was designed for a male exile maybe you should play it as a male exile and see how all the stuff falls into place! The female option is fun sure but for main and complete story, play game as actually designed and not as how you want it designed!

 

The main romances are Visas and Handmaiden and story unfolds perfectly with them in group and as the romance options!

 

That's just what I wanted! A game that takes away even the choice of gender!

 

Note that KotOR works whether you're male or female. You're not helping Sith Lords' case with that argument.

 

I do have to give you credit; you at least finally considered that I was playing a female main character.

 

In Sith Lords, aside from Kreia wanting to destroy the universe, nobody cares. Your companions mysteriously vanish on the trip to Malachor. Why?

 

Geee, and you didnt get a choice on who to take into Temple on ancient planet either! But guess since thats part 1 thats all ok. Game was designed for Malachor to be solo, like it or not! Thats your answer so quit bitching about some small part thats so minor it doesnt even play into equation.

 

Id ask if you were so bad a player you couldnt do Malachor solo but since its obvious you have never played the game and argueing based what you have read here on boards we all already know the answer!

 

PLAY THE GAME BEFORE YOU WHINE!

 

Right, and the Temple was not the last level of KotOR, and you had the option to kill both the characters you had to take with you if you wanted to. There was also a reason given for having to take them and no others. A more similar situation from KotOR would have been when you have to do the Leviathan with Bastila and Carth, but notice that that occurred well before the end game.

 

 

 

What I found confusing was that they were building up to something cool, deep, and thematic with the revelation on Dantooine, and then proceeded to treat you to a few hours of boring hack-n-slash as a reward.

 

Gee and the Star Forge wasnt hack and slash! Nice double standard!

 

You'll notice that you had an entire world as well as a nice scene on top of the Ancient Temple where being Revan mattered. I don't object to the hack and slash, I object to the hack-n-slash occurring immediately after the central revelation with no time to redefine your character afterward.

 

I had hoped that the boring hack-n-slash would have been done with after Peragus.

 

oh ya, lets stop the hack and slash after the introduction of the game! Thats a reasonable request! (shakes head in disgust)

 

Please read carefully. I said boring hack-n-slash. The Dxun jungle was hack-n-slash, but it wasn't boring.

 

but let me guess, the hack and slash in K1 on EVERY PLANET YOU WENT TO was all done masterfully and was ok right?

 

Nope. But at least it wasn't boring. Both Peragus and the endgame were pitifully boring.

 

 

It's not good writing. It's not deep writing. It's absent writing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It was deep good writing, the fact you have missed 90% of the story as you either never played game or treated it like K1 or Halo shows how deep it was. If you actually read (listened to) what was said rather then running around thinking it was a no mind linear path you would have gotten ALOT more outta it!

 

Dont blame the game for your OWN inability to comprehend and understand the spoken and written meanings of words in the game!

 

Given that I have played through two and half times (one game was destroyed by an atrocious bug, and i still played through agin) and you can't even pick up on the nuances of a simple forum post, I doubt your qualifications to judge others' interpretive ability.

 

If it's not there, it's not there. No satisfactory reason is given for all your companions vanishing except for Mira. That's a huge plot hole.

 

No moral choice seems to result from your knowledge of being a wound in the Force. That's not deep.

 

And you certainly don't have any real reason to fight Atris unless you happened to make the correct gender choice at the beginning of the game. That's not skilled.

 

Which makes the fact that Nihilus arrives just and you have to fight him, too, ultimately meaningless.

 

Commie, Potent and Kalfear; I'd just drop it. It's really not worth the effort to rebute someone nicked "Bandobras Took".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

True Must! Its pretty obvious Band has never actually played K2 and just argueing to be a idiot! If he/she had played game, many of his/her complaints would have been answered and he/she wouldnt be posting about them.

 

That or he/she just plays games like you would play Halo and ignores storyline completely then complains when storyline wasnt so basic and force fed to him/her so he/she can understand!

 

Either way, only person stopping Band from understanding K2 storyline is Band! Not Obsidian, not the players, not the game!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh, I understand the game all right. Its flaws as well as its strengths. That's why I prefer KotOR. To use an analogy, I'd rather have a fullly functioning Ford Escort than a Porsche with no wheels.

 

Toodles.

 

Oh, and on a humorous note:

 

Try to discuss things in the forum in an intelligent manner like Commissar.

 

Not an all caps, insulting, HALO manner.

[Commissar]

But in KotOR you then get to define how you respond to the knowledge.  The difference for me is defining what your motivations are (KotOR) as opposed to what your motivations were (Sith Lords).

There's no real "knowledge" to respond to in II, I don't think. You certainly get to decide your current motivations: are you hunting down the Jedi in hiding to take revenge for their cutting you off from the Force (which didn't actually happen, of course), are you hunting them down to unite them against the Sith, are you hunting them down just for the answers, etc.

 

But it's still dealing with what your motivations were, not what they are.  The focus of KotOR is not "Why did you do what you did as Revan?" so much as "What are you going to do now that you know you're Revan?"

Well, I obviously disagree above, but operating on this premise, that's my main problem with I. Bioware gave you their character and said, "Here, take Darth Revan for a spin for a couple of hours." Obsidian gave you the Exile and said, "Figure him out. Who is he?"

 

But nothing after the big revelation.  After the point that defines your character as they are now, not as they were, you get mindless battles.  Nothing more.

And I still argue that the revelation can't be trusted. The Jedi Council in that scene is motivated by fear and uncertainty; if you don't believe me, run through it again. Kreia's interpretation is different than theirs; she shows up and tells them as much. If you question them as you're tracking them down, you discover that the Exile was exceptionally good at winning friends and influencing people prior to leaving the order. He could easily form Force bonds. Until an Obsidian developer steps in and says, "Look, here's the official position on the 'wound in the Force' issue," I'm not buying it so easily.

 

I'm talking about your companions.  Shouldn't you at least get a scene between you and Bao-Dur where you talk about his experiences during the whole Shadow Generator Incident?  Nope, you're whisked right away to fight Atris.  The fact that you're living off of your companion's lives ought to trigger some sort of group discussion, but it isn't there.  That's the problem.

Well, you do have a discussion with Visas, and she thinks the idea that you're leeching life off of them is crap. I chose to believe her. Even if you didn't, I don't see the percentage in informing the rest of the Ebon Hawk about that little tidbit. If it were me, I sure as hell wouldn't tell them, just to avoid a scene that'd look more appropriate as part of UPN's fresh teen drama line-up.

Edited December 8, 2005 by Commissar

[Marka Ragnos]

It's just more 'star wars like' if you know what I mean.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I find it to be the exact opposite. that's not a bad thing as I like the game very much.

[kirottu]

Kalfear and Bandobras Took, you can

[Czulu]

Does any body actually read those large, yellow inscriptions flowing through the space in the begging of the game ? There is clearly stated that Republic is "on a verge of collapse". If anybody stil isnt convinced, despite this and some conversations in the game i really know what more evidences he requires

Edited December 8, 2005 by Czulu

[Commissar]

Does any body actually read those large, yellow inscriptions flowing through the space in the begging of the game ? There is clearly stated that Republic is "on a verge of collapse". If anybody stil isnt convinced, despite this and some conversations in the game i really know what more evidences he requires 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't even think to go back and check the crawl. Good work, bud.

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

k2 is more dark an evil. and who doesn't like a dark and evil story? huh?