Bandobras Took

There is a point of contention there -- more than few believe it was simply a new spin on "destroy the world."

It's great story that's hidden in obscure places (mainly, if you don't know what you're doing influence-wise, you'll miss half the stuff that gives the story meaning). It's also my opinion (and I recognize it's not universally shared) that the story's more intelligible and coherent of played as a Dark Side character.

Doesn't Kreia at one point insist that Nihilus is "no longer a man" because of all the power he gained? I always thought of Nihilus as a twisted version of the Exile.

No, they definitely don't always spawn on the planet -- I've only ever had them spawn once in the fifteen or so games I've done.

Just finished as a light side Jedi Watchman. For some reason, I never got the chance to ask Atris why I couldn't tell Kreia was a Sith. And is there some sort of rule governing which companions you can ask about at the end? I could ask about Mira and Mandalore, but nobody else.

There's a light side one I wanted in the game I just barely finished -- after the Jedi Masters say that you're the wound that is teaching the Sith to devour the Force: [intelligence] Wait just a second, here . . . what about the planet? That's still around, and planets are alive, too!

Yeah, it's on the ship, and it's Bao-Dur blaming himself for the idea and throwing the switch, while the Exile can blame himself for giving the order. I've never had that conversation before, but maybe I didn't make Bao-Dur a Jedi early enough in previous games.

From a strictly roleplaying perspective, I don't help Vaklu if I'm dark side. Anybody who gets me shot down is going to have his guts strung along the walls.

And nets you dark side points. Which is what I was trying to avoid in the first place. On a positive note, on Korriban, you can get positive influence without dark side points by telling her nobody is beyond redemption. And on another positive if note, I found a conversation with Bao-Dur that I've never found before, where he discusses whose fault Malachor V is. Do you have to turn him into a Jedi to get that conversation, or does it just happen if you've got enough influence?

The point is the Workbench. The Workbench, unless I'm mistaken, always uses the Exile's skills, but many item upgrades as well as breakdown/basic item creation require high amounts of repair. It just is annoying that the class that relies the most on weapons will have the hardest time making a good weapon. It's still the other aspect I'm more concerned with, though: how can one gain influence with Kreia without also gaining Dark Side points?

I used to think that KotOR 2 wasn't that great. However, I pulled it out, reinstalled, and played as a Sith Lord. And the story flowed smoothly, led well from one segment to another, and seemed rather well balanced and designed overall. So I thought, "Maybe I remembered incorrectly," and started up another game as a Light Side Guardian. And it's as irritating as I remember. As far as I can tell, the fundamental differences are these. 1) Playing a Light Sider causes you to lose influence with Kreia, who contains a whole lot of the back story and insights that give later events meaning; 2) The manner in which a Dark Sider feeds on the Jedi Masters

But in KotOR you then get to define how you respond to the knowledge. The difference for me is defining what your motivations are (KotOR) as opposed to what your motivations were (Sith Lords). You mention unreliable narrators further down. Most of the Onderon stuff is coming form Vaklu supporters. Of course they're going to say the Republic is failing. Likewise, trusting a crime lord (Go-To) in Nar Shadaa when he says the Republic's dying is also iffy. I must have royally pissed her off, then. I couldn't get her to answer positively to anything. I didn't get the impression that Kreia was out to destroy the Exile from the beginning. In fact, I didn't get that impression anywhere in the game. An unreliable mentor, certainly, but throughout the course of the plot there are several cutscenes where she goes to great length to ensure NPCs are going to protect you, not destroy you. The only decisions made for you about the character are the fact that he fought against the Mandalorians and activated the Mass Shadow Generator on Revan's orders. That's it. And, once again, the reasons for such actions are completely left up to the player. But it's still dealing with what your motivations were, not what they are. The focus of KotOR is not "Why did you do what you did as Revan?" so much as "What are you going to do now that you know you're Revan?" But nothing after the big revelation. After the point that defines your character as they are now, not as they were, you get mindless battles. Nothing more. I don't trust every unreliable narrator (see above). I didn't trust Kreia from the start. What I'm talking about is getting one conversation from Disciple on the subject after the big revelation, and nothing else. Maybe I ought to reemphasize this point. I would have no problem with the game were it not for everything that happens after the revelation on Dantooine. I can put up with it in the beginning, having more of the same at the end is a major disappointment, and makes the game worse than KotOR. KotOR lives up to what it could be. Sith Lords does not. I'm talking about your companions. Shouldn't you at least get a scene between you and Bao-Dur where you talk about his experiences during the whole Shadow Generator Incident? Nope, you're whisked right away to fight Atris. The fact that you're living off of your companion's lives ought to trigger some sort of group discussion, but it isn't there. That's the problem. On the other hand, thank you for responding with well thought-out arguments. It makes a real difference from Kalfear. Give the two planet thing a rest already. Volo is a known hater of 2 (hell Mario from Mario Bros, could have been villian in part 1 and she would have prefered it)and your just making up stuff as you go along now. Stick to the fa ts and not made up fantasy. Ummm . . . Shadow Paladin brought up learning about being Revan on the second planet. I'm just pointing out that at least you had two planets in Sith Lords. yah, and waking up in crew quarters to find out you have no memory of being transferred to Republic Ship was so much better. Babbon, if your going to complain about one item, STAY CONSISTANT! BOTH games played the no memory angle and BOTH games gave you just enough info to keep going from the start! NEITHER was better then the other in this regard. No, in KotOR you could at least pretend to be your own character for half of the game. Sith Lords did not leave you this option. Your first conversation is that you and the Jedi parted ways and you lost the Force (now, if they had taken the approach from the first game -- made you level up in a non-jedi class because you have no connection to the Force at the start of the game, that might have worked). But no, you defied the council and lost the Force in your opening conversation. What are you, blind????? Of course the Republic is failing!!! Thats the whole theme to K2. If you didnt understand this one easy and OVERSTATED fact its no wonder you failed to grasp even the most basic of game concepts! Lets see, 1) If Telos fails so does the planet restoration project by the republic 2) If Onderon seperates it will leave the Republic blind to attack, kill off planet restoration, AND ruin trade with in the Republic and if those 2 not enough 3) GOTO TELLS YOU POINT BLANK THE REPUBLIC IS FAILING AND GOING BANKRUPT! Seriously, how much more do you need??????? As was mentioned previously, a reliable narrator. Telos doesn't fail if you pull the fuel deal and successfully screw over Czerka. Onderon doesn't fail if you support the Queen. Therefore your first two points are essentially bunk; the Republic's not going to fail so long as some random person can travel between a couple of planets. And I definitely want something more than the word of a Crime Lord involved in every single vice possible. As far as the evidence goes, the Republic still has funding to put together a major planetary restoration effort, still has the loyalty of the rulers of worlds like Onderon, and, given that they can scrape together forces for a confrontation at Citadel Station near the end of the game, their military isn't entirely defunct, even if it's stretched thin. Hurt? Yes. Dying? Waiting to see the evidence. [/color] ROFLMAO! Lets see, the sith attack you and only real defence you have is to regain your connection to the force. Your reconnection is TIED to Kreia. So your dumb by NOT getting rid of her?????? Are you on drugs? Of course you dont get rid of her!!!!!! Shes the glue that binds your survival. Not to mention the whole bound thing that could be leathal to you. Wow, you really like jumping to conclusions and outcomes based soly on your dislikes and bias rather then storyline dont you! Actually, since the Jedi Masters tell you that you've been draining the Force from all your companions (you did catch that part of it, didn't you?), you didn't need Kreia after you found Atton in the Prison. Between the two, I'd rather have the person that isn't trying to manipulate me. Silly me. I mention not being able to boot Kreia out because ShadowPaladin was complaining about main character stupidity in KotOR (not catching on to the Revan thing). And since my first time through, I found enough people mentioning that Kreia was probably lying about the lethal bond, I'm prepared to give that the boot, too. Frankly speaking, I'd rather she was in a nursing home somewhere with the least possibility of dying rather than wandering around with me into the middle of huge firefights. Clue #1 that she's lying: she says that battle will dampen the effects of the bond. At a time when you're relying on the Force to fuel your combat skills, the opposite should be true. Maybe I'm not jumping to conclusions. Maybe I have thought things through. The least you could do is respond in an intelligent manner, as the others who feel obliged to post in this thread have done. Speaking of false assumptions, how about this: you're assuming I haven't played it through (twice) and thought through the implications of what people were saying the second time. Yeesh. [/color] Well IF you had actually played the game you would understand 1) you goto Atris TO SAVE HANDMAIDEN. Shes gone there to get Kreia. But if that alone is not enough for you 2) Atris is SITH not jedi and misrepresenting herself to others 3) Atris has MANY artifacts from the Jedi and Sith hidden away 4) Ect (there is a ton of reason that you would understand IF you played the game) Now it's my turn to laugh. Let me follow your format. IF you were familiar with the game you would know that female main characters do not get Handmaiden in their party. IF you had actually read through my posts, you would have heard me mentioning having Disciple in my party. So much for your first point. Atris should matter if you're going to fight her. But all you get is a conversation between her and Kreia which amounts to: "Oh, by the way, you follow the Dark Side." "Wow, I guess I do." So much for point two. I fail to find that believable. I don't think I played through the game on a quest for ancient Jedi knowledge. Must have been one of the things I missed while trying to find the remaining Jedi masters to conquer the hidden Sith. So now (by your standards) Nimbus is senceless even though it ends the storyline with Visas completely, ties in the MAndalorians, eliminates THE MOST DEADLY ENEMY THE REPUBLIC EVER SEEN??? Again are you on drugs? Yes, but what has he done recently? Unless I've actually had Visas in my party, tying up that storyline is going to mean nothing to me. About the only connection Nihilus has is that he can wipe out worlds so he must be stopped. Great. Never heard that before. Nihilus could have been interesting if we could have delved more into the parallels between him and the Exile--both living off the force. But we couldn't. It's not in there. Reducing Nihillus to nothing more than "I've got a new weapon to destroy the world! Try to stop me! Muhahahaha!" Oh, dear. And who had no clue that Handmaiden wouldn't even have been in my party? I believe you've insulted yourself enough just by that statement. You'd do a lot better to follow Commissar's method of discussion. Everyone and their dog has said Malachor V was poorly done. Thats hardly ground breaking news. But to question why you fight Sion????? Hell why dont you complain about fighting Malak in K1. Because both statements would carry as much weight as the other! PLAY THE GAME BEFORE YOU WHINE! Because I actually had the opportunity to make some decisions after learning I was Revan and before fighting Malak. From the time you learn about the wound in the Force until the time you fight Sion, you are whisked from one battle to another without any chance for further character development. It's hack-n-slash, and this is not what the first part of the game leads you to expect. Let's extrapolate a little. Kreia believes in the death of the Force. The Force penetrates the universe, it "binds us together." If the Force is destroyed, the universe dissolves. Again, between the two of us, It's possible I'm thinking things through a bit more. ummmm, lets see, wound was dealt with by Nimbus, Kreia, Atris, and Sion all after Dant. Perhaps if you had even the faintest clue what you were speaking about you would realize this! PLAY THE GAME BEFORE YOU WHINE! Yeah, dealt with. "Hi, you're a wound in the Force, let's kill each other!" I found more depth in Sion Oedipal feelings for Kreia, to be honest. Well since the story was designed for a male exile maybe you should play it as a male exile and see how all the stuff falls into place! The female option is fun sure but for main and complete story, play game as actually designed and not as how you want it designed! The main romances are Visas and Handmaiden and story unfolds perfectly with them in group and as the romance options! That's just what I wanted! A game that takes away even the choice of gender! Note that KotOR works whether you're male or female. You're not helping Sith Lords' case with that argument. I do have to give you credit; you at least finally considered that I was playing a female main character. Geee, and you didnt get a choice on who to take into Temple on ancient planet either! But guess since thats part 1 thats all ok. Game was designed for Malachor to be solo, like it or not! Thats your answer so quit bitching about some small part thats so minor it doesnt even play into equation. Id ask if you were so bad a player you couldnt do Malachor solo but since its obvious you have never played the game and argueing based what you have read here on boards we all already know the answer! PLAY THE GAME BEFORE YOU WHINE! Right, and the Temple was not the last level of KotOR, and you had the option to kill both the characters you had to take with you if you wanted to. There was also a reason given for having to take them and no others. A more similar situation from KotOR would have been when you have to do the Leviathan with Bastila and Carth, but notice that that occurred well before the end game. Gee and the Star Forge wasnt hack and slash! Nice double standard! You'll notice that you had an entire world as well as a nice scene on top of the Ancient Temple where being Revan mattered. I don't object to the hack and slash, I object to the hack-n-slash occurring immediately after the central revelation with no time to redefine your character afterward. oh ya, lets stop the hack and slash after the introduction of the game! Thats a reasonable request! (shakes head in disgust) Please read carefully. I said boring hack-n-slash. The Dxun jungle was hack-n-slash, but it wasn't boring. Nope. But at least it wasn't boring. Both Peragus and the endgame were pitifully boring. It was deep good writing, the fact you have missed 90% of the story as you either never played game or treated it like K1 or Halo shows how deep it was. If you actually read (listened to) what was said rather then running around thinking it was a no mind linear path you would have gotten ALOT more outta it! Dont blame the game for your OWN inability to comprehend and understand the spoken and written meanings of words in the game! Given that I have played through two and half times (one game was destroyed by an atrocious bug, and i still played through agin) and you can't even pick up on the nuances of a simple forum post, I doubt your qualifications to judge others' interpretive ability. If it's not there, it's not there. No satisfactory reason is given for all your companions vanishing except for Mira. That's a huge plot hole. No moral choice seems to result from your knowledge of being a wound in the Force. That's not deep. And you certainly don't have any real reason to fight Atris unless you happened to make the correct gender choice at the beginning of the game. That's not skilled. Which makes the fact that Nihilus arrives just and you have to fight him, too, ultimately meaningless. True Must! Its pretty obvious Band has never actually played K2 and just argueing to be a idiot! If he/she had played game, many of his/her complaints would have been answered and he/she wouldnt be posting about them. That or he/she just plays games like you would play Halo and ignores storyline completely then complains when storyline wasnt so basic and force fed to him/her so he/she can understand! Either way, only person stopping Band from understanding K2 storyline is Band! Not Obsidian, not the players, not the game! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Oh, I understand the game all right. Its flaws as well as its strengths. That's why I prefer KotOR. To use an analogy, I'd rather have a fullly functioning Ford Escort than a Porsche with no wheels. Toodles. Oh, and on a humorous note: Try to discuss things in the forum in an intelligent manner like Commissar. Not an all caps, insulting, HALO manner.

Yes! At least you had two planets in KotOR where you didn't know what was going on. Except that when you wake up in the med lab, you have no clue that any of that happened. Which meant that my first time through, I was playing as a nice guy, and all of a sudden, (near the end, no less -- I didn't like Bao-Dur enough to influence him) "Hey, you were personally responsible for exterminating both sides in the war with some gravity generators." Gee, that'll let me determine the character. Oh, yeah, and apparently Atris was important to me somehow, as I was forced to go fight her and say meaningful things to her, even though I didn't give a flying fig about her and she had approximately three minutes of screen time. KotOR offers at least that much definition simply with what you do after your character figures out they're Revan. There are at least options for reacting to the knowledge and going to the dark side because of it. I felt more hidebound and restricted with the Exile because there wasn't even the illusion of determining the character's background. It was all written out for you. The Republic is Failing? I had yet to see evidence of that, all you had were people complaining that the aftermath of war made life hard. Again, what's the difference between that and the whole "Jedi tend to make life harder" in the first game? Unless, of course, you didn't have enough influence with her. "Hey, Kreia, can I ask you a question that would advance the plot?" Influence: Failure. "No, shut up." And that's precisely how I felt in Sith Lords. "By the way, you were a General in the Mandalorian wars responsible for the biggest slaughter ever and you're too dumb to tell Kreia to take a hike even though you can pretty much tell she's out to destroy you as soon as she wakes up." There's no point in playing that character; all the important decisions were made before you even put your hands on the controls. Like, oh, that I said it was the stuff after Dantooine that made no sense? What could be more straightforward and basic than that sentence? Yeesh. After Dantooine and Kreia kills the masters I said to myself, "well, that's an interesting idea; let's see where they go with it." And, in the following order: You go fight Atris, who's gone to the dark side. Great. Why should we care when she got no more than three minutes of "complain about you" screen time. You got to Citadel Station, fight some sith, plant some bombs and fight Nihilus. Great. Again, why should we care? He had even less personality than Atris, and that's saying something. You go to Malachor V. Apparently, your companions were all sucked out of an air hatch between Telos and Malachor, ecxcept Kreia talks about them in one of her innumerable cut scenes. You go kill Sion. Not that that has any real meaning, either, the only thing he's done the entire game is cut off Kreia's hand, for which he ought to be rewarded, not punished. You go fight Kreia, who explains her intention to wipe out the universe, then tries to kill you with four lightsabers. After that conversation on Dantooine, I expected some real depth (that word's been floating around this thread) and interesting choices. I didn't even get the choice of who to take on the Ravager with me. There wasn't a single conversation option that really dealt with your being a wound in the force. There was little stuff like, "Oh, hi Disciple, I'm a wound in the Force!" Disciple: "Oh, I love you anyway." "That's great, but why isn't Atton here, since he's the one I've been paying attention to all game?" Disciple: "Ummm . . ." At least in the first game, the characters reacted to your being Revan. In Sith Lords, aside from Kreia wanting to destroy the universe, nobody cares. Your companions mysteriously vanish on the trip to Malachor. Why? What I found confusing was that they were building up to something cool, deep, and thematic with the revelation on Dantooine, and then proceeded to treat you to a few hours of boring hack-n-slash as a reward. I had hoped that the boring hack-n-slash would have been done with after Peragus. It's not good writing. It's not deep writing. It's absent writing.

I think some of those assumptions are a bit off. I'm sure I remember Kreia mentioning something like "if he helps his companions, he's going to weaken himself." Looking at the cut content threads, I think all of them are supposed to be there except Bao-Dur. The workbench and other modifications are great; when it comes to actual gameplay, I like Sith Lords better. But overall, the ending fails to make the slightest bit of sense. This isn't fill in the blanks, it's fill in the climax. The fights with Atris, Nihilus, Sion, and Kreia ought to mean something, but they don't. Your companions' stories ought to get some resolution, but they don't. Therefore anything after Dantooine leaves me with a sour taste in my mouth, as the game is fun and involving up to that point, in spite of being forced to have Go-To and Kreia in your party. That's true. They're as deep as an oil stain. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Surely they're as deep as a Rice Krispy Treat?

If Sith Lords had been finished, I would have enjoyed it more. I've been playing it again and wondering why I felt so disappointed . . . until I got past the scene with the Jedi Masters on Dantooine and the "What is going on here?" starts coming into play. The disappointment just mounts because you can see what they were aiming for and didn't have time to complete. But why do we care about Atris when she isn't even mentioned after you get the Ebon Hawk back? Why should we care about Nihilus when he hasn't even attacked us the whole game? Why on earth, this close to the end of the game, am I forced to take characters that I don't even like along with me? If they had had time to finish, Sith Lords would have served a function remarkably similar to Empire Strikes Back -- deepening the story, blurring the distinct good/evil lines of the previous installment, and setting up a wonderful third installment. As it is, I have a hard time finishing the game. It would be like watching Empire Strikes Back with all of Han's smart remarks missing and half of Yoda's lessons gone.