Is Bill on crack ?

[Dark Moth]

You're braver than I. Usually I'm good about taking care of my discs. I'm so afraid of scratches I keep them in their cases. :ph34r:

[Darque]

I get all my CD's/DVD's in envelopes, often without anything else, not even a manual. After a while there are stacks of naked discs everywhere on my desk. Yes, my discs get scratched a lot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Every disc I own goes into a jewel case.

[Calax]

Hmmm.  I don't think I've ever owned a PC game that had discs directly stacked on top of each other.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The company doesn't give them to you stacked... Its you who does the stacking when they give you those sleeve jackets to screw around with.

[Spider]

 

Backing up a disc is not always feasible. Backing up a PS3 game for instance is going to be kinda difficult, and the same is true for an unmodded PS2 (or any other console).

 

There is also an environmental aspect to all of this although I'm not entirely sure how that falls. In my eyes, putting everything on pieces of plastic seems more wasteful than just keeping it on a harddrive, but more powerful harddrives and internet connections call for a higher consumption of electricity which is also a bad thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sucks to be you then

 

I've got over 50 PS2 games (for example) and each one is still mint.

 

Learn to take care of your discs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not to be rude, but what has taking care of my discs got to do with anything I wrote in the post you replied to?

 

I've had exactly one game be rendered unplayable due to a scratch and I have no idea how that happened. As far as I know it got scratched while I was playing it. I had been playing it for 4-5 hours when suddenly it would start acting funny (crashing and such) and when I took it out it had a huge scratch and ever since it can't be played without it crashing after about 2 minutes.

 

Regardless, it's still beside the point. I said that backing up for an unmodded PS2 is very difficult and in the case of the PS3 it's going to be virtually impossible.

[alanschu]

Hmmm.  I don't think I've ever owned a PC game that had discs directly stacked on top of each other.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The company doesn't give them to you stacked... Its you who does the stacking when they give you those sleeve jackets to screw around with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Not sure what your point is. My post was a response to the top post.

 

Even if I keep them in sleeve jackets, they don't get scratched up. They get scratched up when I don't put them away and all the dust and other junk falls on them and murders the crap out of them.

 

 

I find it odd for you to put words into ShadowPaladin's mouth anyways.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

It may depend on where you llive. But when games started to come in standard DVD cases it was quite common to have the disks stacked one of top of the other with no seperators at all between them.

 

Temple of Elemental Evil the reissue came like this as did the NWN pack. With NWN SoU and HotU all stacked one on top of the other.

 

Obviously it's done to cut to costs.

 

Another thing with direct download is that you wont be getting any documentation but rather you will need more online tutorials and in turn this will take up more space. In the above mentioned games the manuals come on PDF files. Which means if you want to read as you play, then you need a printer.

 

Anyway I think we can all agree that it's much less bother replacing a single disk, than it would be to replace every game that you had downloaded to your system.

Edited October 22, 2005 by ShadowPaladin V1.0

[Spider]

Anyway I think we can all agree that it's much less bother replacing a single disk, than it would be to replace every game that you had downloaded to your system.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

From your perspective, yes.

 

My perspective is different though. Games I'm not currently playing are uninstalled from my harddrive. So for me, a broken disc is much more of a hazzle than a download.

 

Besides, what if I've lost a disc? Then I'd pretty much have to buy tha game again, wouldn't I? And even if a lost disc could be easily fixed, it would still take at least a week. A week is a lot longer than a couple of hours.

 

And I'd much rather not having games I currently have no interest in playing taking up space in my apartment (or on my harddrive if that was the case).

 

The lack of a manual is more of an issue. But it can be solved through more intelligent design (and not the kind some wants in science classes). Look at games like Civilization. It has all the documentation you need in the game, easily accesible.

 

That combined with a decent tutorial really should take care of that problem. I personally hate manuals anyway and rarely even look at them.

[Surreptishus]

Ok but what if once you uninstall the game you want to play it? where do you install it from? If this download system were to become mainstream i seriously doubt one would be allowed unlimited downloads for obvious reasons (unless there was very good DRM).

 

As for scratching discs, yeah they can be easily scratched even if you put them back in the cases , i've seen DVDs be scratched by faulty players and consoles. Even so i wouldnt mind the odd unplayable yet easily replaceable game over hundreds of gigs worth of games lost due to corruption or whatever.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

My perspective is different though. Games I'm not currently playing are uninstalled from my harddrive. So for me, a broken disc is much more of a hazzle than a download.

 

Besides, what if I've lost a disc? Then I'd pretty much have to buy tha game again, wouldn't I? And even if a lost disc could be easily fixed, it would still take at least a week. A week is a lot longer than a couple of hours.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Lack of space ? Unless the download offers some sort of pass once you buy a game, you would still have to buy it everytime you wanted to play (if you uninstalled it).

 

Depends where you live and what you lost.

 

Like I said initially if the games were offered on a rental basis, then you could treat them as disposable. It would just save you a trip to Blockbusters. You might even be able to stream them in the same way NTL does movies. You buy a movie and it gives you 24 hour access to it any time as many times as you want.

Edited October 22, 2005 by ShadowPaladin V1.0

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

As for scratching discs, yeah they can be easily scratched even if you put them back in the cases , i've seen DVDs be scratched by faulty players and consoles. Even so i wouldnt mind the odd unplayable yet easily replaceable game over hundreds of gigs worth of games lost due to corruption or whatever.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thats a good point I dont think we have touched on the virus aspect of downloading. You know there is a virus knocking about which can destroy a DS outright (render it unplayable). Since conosles are meant for a much less computer savvy market the risk from virus' become that much greater.

[Judge Hades]

I can see where Billy Boy is coming from but I think such things as "Games on Demand" are quite a bit off.

[Spider]

Lack of space ? Unless the download offers some sort of pass once you buy a game, you would still have to buy it everytime you wanted to play (if you uninstalled it).

 

I have already said that I believe a lifetime pass for each game you buy is needed for it to become a viable solution, exactly for the types of concerns mentioned.

 

  Ok but what if once you uninstall the game you want to play it? where do you install it from? If this download system were to become mainstream i seriously doubt one would be allowed unlimited downloads for obvious reasons (unless there was very good DRM).

 

For the PC isn't that exactly what Steam does? And if we're talking for the X-box specifically (which this thread is about) X-box live is a manufacturer controlled system that should easily be modifiable for such purposes.

 

I'm not saying there aren't kinks to work out, but I still believe this will happen not too far off into the future.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I have already said that I believe a lifetime pass for each game you buy is needed for it to become a viable solution, exactly for the types of concerns mentioned.

 

For the PC isn't that exactly what Steam does? And if we're talking for the X-box specifically (which this thread is about) X-box live is a manufacturer controlled system that should easily be modifiable for such purposes.

 

I'm not saying there aren't kinks to work out, but I still believe this will happen not too far off into the future.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Fair enough.

 

I'm not familiar with steam. Or Xbox live to any great degree I never signed up for it although I've played games on it at other peoples houses.

 

The major factors however I see as these.

 

1. It's all or nothing if your trying to do away with Bluray/HDDVD for download since otherwise all a large HD will do is increase the cost of your console and apparently a 20 GB HD is such a big deal that an Xbox360 version is shipping without one

 

2. Payment plans your going to need some way of paying for this and the obvious seems to be a CC which not everyone has or is willing to use for this purpose.

 

3. Retail. Retail chains are not going to want a huge swathe of their profits to disapear , which is going to make the a really unpopular thing if attempted on a large scale.

 

It might happen (likely will) but it's taken years to get people to buy online and still most of the trade is in the highstreet. It's going to take even longer for attitudes towards buying something which you dont have a permenant copy of to catch on.

Edited October 22, 2005 by ShadowPaladin V1.0

[Spider]

Fair enough.

 

I'm not familiar with steam. Or Xbox live to any great degree I never signed up for it although I've played games on it at other peoples houses.

 

The major factors however I see as these.

 

1. It's all or nothing if your trying to do away with Bluray/HDDVD for download since otherwise all a large HD will do is increase the cost of your console and apparently a 20 GB HD is such a big deal that an Xbox360 version is shipping without one 

 

2. Payment plans your going to need some way of paying for this and the obvious seems to be a CC which not everyone has or is willing to use for this purpose.

 

3. Retail. Retail chains are not going to want a huge swathe of their profits to disapear , which is going to make the a really unpopular thing if attempted on a large scale.

 

It might happen (likely will) but it's taken years to get people to buy online and still most of the trade is in the highstreet. It's going to take even longer for attitudes towards buying something which you dont have a permenant copy of to catch on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm not even sure it will be an option during the 360's lifetime. Like you said yourself, if this is the way of the future (which I think it is) why is the 360 shipping without a harddrive?

 

Although direct downloads could appear on the 360 for those who do have a harddrive (but it's going to have to be larger than 20 gb). Aren't Nintendo doing something like that for the Revolution btw? I seem to recall that you'll be able to download older games (ie for 8-bit and SNES).

 

Payment will be a non-issue at first. It's obviously going to be credit cards and it's a non-issue since those who don't want to use CCs that way will still be able to go to the store. Downloading won't replace physical copies overnight.

 

Retail is the main concern of course. But that's a reason why Microsoft should be the ones experiment with something like this. What are the retailers going to do, boycott everything Microsoft? Hardly.

 

I'm not overly familiar with Steam or X-box live either, but as far as I understand Steam you sign up for an account and then you buy games into that account. I believe those can be downloaded to whatever computer you're using. Steam requires you to be on-line when you play (at least when you start the game) so that's how control is maintained. I think, information on the website is a little vague. Steam has other issues though, but I admire the effort.

 

X-box Live I know even less about (I don't even have an X-box) but from what I gather you connect to a server maintained by Microsoft. Given that MS makes the software and has control of the servers, implementing some sort of control feature to make sure only authorized downloads take place should be fairly easy. If they want to that is.

[alanschu]

Lack of space ? Unless the download offers some sort of pass once you buy a game, you would still have to buy it everytime you wanted to play (if you uninstalled it).

 

I've yet to see one that only gave you a single download. If it did, I'd certainly never buy it.

 

Some, including Steam, provide unlimited downloads though.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I'm not even sure it will be an option during the 360's lifetime. Like you said yourself, if this is the way of the future (which I think it is) why is the 360 shipping without a harddrive?

 

Although direct downloads could appear on the 360 for those who do have a harddrive (but it's going to have to be larger than 20 gb). Aren't Nintendo doing something like that for the Revolution btw? I seem to recall that you'll be able to download older games (ie for 8-bit and SNES).

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well a lot of what Bill has said lately hasnt tallied with his actions. Like advocating HDDVD for example and then sticking DVD's into the 360.

 

It's pretty simple to do it from Nintendo's perspective since the games on offer are tiny compared to a game of today. The revolution will play GC games off the standard disk as far as I know. I think it's when you get games which are 10 GB (or even larger if developers start pushing the blu ray capacity) that you are going to run into problems.

Edited October 22, 2005 by ShadowPaladin V1.0

[Walsingham]

I don't see the point in owning more stuff on my HD than I can possibly ever have time to watch. Hence why have 900 gigs of stuff? Just delete some already!

[Judge Hades]

Thing is games that are 10 gigs or larger will have no real substance to them. Majority of that space will be used in useless FMV sequences. I want to play my game not watch a movie when I pick up a controller. Right now I am pretty satisfied with the graphical quality found in the KotOR or JE games. I don't have a real need for games to have better than that.

 

If they can put in 30 gigs would of actual gameplay and substantial interactive story telling then it would be worth it, but if it is just going to be wasted on FMV then I rather not bother.

[Arkan]

I have already said that I believe a lifetime pass for each game you buy is needed for it to become a viable solution, exactly for the types of concerns mentioned.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What happens if the company goes out of business and you can no longer get the game?

[Spider]

What happens if the company goes out of business and you can no longer get the game?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I've been thinking about that one actually. And I admit that's one problem I don't have an immediate solution to. As far as X-box live is concerned that's not an issue though.

 

For PCs it's different and depends a lot on how distribution is solved. The article in The Escapist that has been linked on these fora (at east I think that's where it was) mentions a central point to get games from, sort of a portal site. If that is the solution it takes care of gaming companies going down and the risk goes down. After that it depends on how the portal is set up.

 

Then again, this is no different from replacing lost discs. Getting a new copy of a scratched disc from a company that is out of business is also quite difficult.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

What happens if the company goes out of business and you can no longer get the game?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I've been thinking about that one actually. And I admit that's one problem I don't have an immediate solution to. As far as X-box live is concerned that's not an issue though.

 

For PCs it's different and depends a lot on how distribution is solved. The article in The Escapist that has been linked on these fora (at east I think that's where it was) mentions a central point to get games from, sort of a portal site. If that is the solution it takes care of gaming companies going down and the risk goes down. After that it depends on how the portal is set up.

 

Then again, this is no different from replacing lost discs. Getting a new copy of a scratched disc from a company that is out of business is also quite difficult.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually its probably a bit like MS's stance on backwards compatability which aside from being somewhat iffy. Acording to MS backwards compatibility"will be supported as long as there is an interest" thing is there is no definition of what qualifies as interest.

 

So your basically at the mercy of whatever they decide to put up for download, for as long as they are willing to do it.

[Judge Hades]

Well, aren't already at the mercy at what they want to release anyway?

 

Like I said I see where Billy is coming from and there are companies like Valve and Bioware testing the waters on this but I don't see it coming full bloom til the next set of consoles.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Well, aren't already at the mercy at what they want to release anyway?

 

Like I said I see where Billy is coming from and there are companies like Valve and Bioware testing the waters on this but I don't see it coming full bloom til the next set of consoles.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not really what I meant. I meant if you buy something then you have it for as long as you take care of it. I've still got Mega Drive games that work and those things are ancient. Ditto with the Dreamcast, the software and the unit still function,even though the company that made it is long gone.

 

Take the PS3 for example, it will run three generations worth of software. And thats a heck of a lot of software if you wanted to have it all available for download. The more current the software, the more space it will tend to occupy.

 

It's one thing to offer downloads in addition to disks, it's quite another to abandon disks entirely for downloads. That will have much more to do with changing the attitude of consumers, than it does with technology.

[Judge Hades]

Think of it as game rentals. Lets say you have the PS4 and wanted to play Final Fantasy 7 PS1 game for some odd reason. You can go to the online site and for $2 USD or 10 yen (or whatever) you could rent the game for one week. After one weeks time you can either rent it again or move on to someting else.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Think of it as game rentals.  Lets say you have the PS4 and wanted to play Final Fantasy 7 PS1 game for some odd reason.  You can go to the online site and for $2 USD or 10 yen (or whatever) you could rent the game for one week.  After one weeks time you can either rent it again or move on to someting else.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Probably not as odd as it sounds. It's been in the top 10 of Gamefaqs for weeks.

 

Rental is a different issue though since you have no intent to keep a rental it dosnt matter beyond the hassle of having to delete it again to make room for something else (at the moment a trip to blockbusters is still preferable). I'd have no problems at all renting games via direct download. Buying them however, whole different matter.

 

If you trace the history of gaming . I'm reliably informed that in the begining games came on cassetes. Then they came on floppies, then on bigger floppies. Then floppies designed only to transport them from the store to your HD. Then CD's which performed the same sort of function. Now DvD's that do the same sort of thing because the games have gotten that much bigger even in a packed state.

 

Now while the medium has changed, the method is still the same. You pay money and you get something physical that you own in return.

The biggest problem with direct downloads is to have a HD that will make it viable it's going to cost a fortune.