Pledge! Now!

[Cantousent]

I agree with you completely in regards to defining the terms and coming to an understanding of what religion and establishing a religion means. In fact, that seems to be the heart of the argument between taks, Gromnir, Commissar, and Shadowstrider.

 

As for the pledge itself, it's become meaningless to most school kids anyhow.

[Dark Moth]

Well your country has aggressive right wing religious folks all over the place, trying to produce hatred against before mentioned people, all we do is to mentain a state church out of tradition, and in order to give and receive gifts. (some worship of course, but the majority doesn't). That we have an obsolete institution that many take advantage off doesn't create hatred, it only mocks this so-called god, who doesn't exist anyway imo.

 

That you can't see which is scarier is really the most scary part here.

 

The Church and religion is seldom heard about, seen or affects the day of the average Dane. Can you say the same for Americans? (I'm referring to the average atheist American)

 

Edited a few points.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The "right wing religious folks" who "produce hatred" are far from the majority. In fact, they are in the minority. They seem to be more numerous then they are because they tend to be outspoken and are unfairly given all the media attention as if they speak for the rest of us. Then people look at them and think the entire religion must be to blame. Heck, just look at Lucius's profile. And for the record, there is nothing in Christianity that condones any of their behavior.

 

As for the pledge, it's not that I actually support "under God" just being there in the first place, but that I don't agree with the methods these people are using (banning the pledge entirely because of two words). The actions they are taking I feel are not appropriate and would only serve to anger the majority more. And it's the same guy, to boot! It's not even a different person doing this. If the non-religious, atheist, Buddhist, deist, etc. people are offended by "under God" and want it removed, then it is their constitutional right and duty to speak out against it.

[Judge Hades]

Besides isn't having those two words in the pledge discriminatory against those who don't beleive in a god?

[Lucius]

Even though Hades made a good ZING, I do believe that my interest in your politics are, how should I put it, 'justified' since we get bombarded with it all the time through our own news networks, no less.

 

Besides, the politics of a 5,4m population kinda blends and are downright... boring, compared to those of a 290m ally and super power, yes?

 

As for the defensive thing, it's merely the 'vibe' I get from many of your posts recently, I might be over interpreting however.

[Gromnir]

first, why you think it is not possible to debate intent?  look at what the framers said is a good start... then look at what they did.  we not gotta know specific what is in the minds of each and every framer to glean their intent s a whole.

 

They aren't here now to explain their reasoning, or what factors played in their mind. Its one thing to analyze the factors leading up to a decision and the decision itself, but the fact is we don't know ALL the things which played in their mind. Thus I'm not going to debate what someone's intent was. I never met George Washington, Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, et al. so I'll restrain myself from saying "I think they thought."

 

second, the fact that you assume that most folks accept the wall o' separation language seems based on gut feeling rather than reality.  we got a very religious nation, and your certainty that most folks believes that the establishment clause creates a wall o' separation would be something that we would have no such certainty 'bout.

 

Polls support that most people accept the seperation of church and state arguement. It might not be an overwhelming majority, but neither was Bush's election. In all likelihood if you went to a breadbasket state to poll, most might not accept it. *Shrugs*

 

I go by what the polls show.

 

finally, what does it matter that most persons accept something as true?  popular opinion is what Congress is 'posed to be swayed by. Congress is the folks elected by the people.  if the people has changed their mind, then by all means, let them change the law by demanding their representatives to do so.  that is the way the process is 'posed to work.  stodgy old Justices who gots no accountability to the public is the ones who should be gauging the current trends and opinions o' the American Public?

 

oh, and while this ain

[Lucius]

The "right wing religious folks" who "produce hatred" are far from the majority.  In fact, they are in the minority.  They seem to be more numerous then they are because they tend to be outspoken and are unfairly given all the media attention as if they speak for the rest of us.  Then people look at them and think the entire religion must be to blame.  Heck, just look at Lucius's profile.  And for the record, there is nothing in Christianity that condones any of their behavior. 

And as I said, you have them, we don't. My point wasn't that they were the majority in the US, nor do I believe I ever said so.

And as for my profile, however pleased I am that you have such a keen interest in me , I do believe it states that I loathe religion with all my heart when it is "abused in the extreme" or some such.

[Judge Hades]

I simply loathe God.

[Gromnir]

I simply loathe God.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

then isn't it great that you live here in the us where you can choose to loathe God all you wish?

 

nevertheless, the fact that you loathe God should not mean that everybody else should loathe God and it not mean that peoples needs must pretend that they do not love God simply 'cause such a thing bothers you.

 

as we said earlier, Gromnir is in favor of Wall of Separation language, but there is very little to suggest that Wall of Separation is what the framers wanted... and if you ignore the framers, then whose intent should matter? leave up to public opinion as ss suggests? then why have a Court at all? end up with the tyranny of the majority nightmare?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Reveilled]

I simply loathe God.

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What did she ever do to you?

[Judge Hades]

I don't particular care what the framers intended. I prefer to live in the now. What happened 200 years ago has little to do with the problems we face now. The framers had no idea what our technological level would be at, the discoveries of science would make, and how these things would impact everyday life.

 

We need a wall of separation and a secular government in order to have fairness for all governed.

[Lucius]

I simply loathe God.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What did she ever do to you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nice. ^_^

[Dark Moth]

The "right wing religious folks" who "produce hatred" are far from the majority.  In fact, they are in the minority.  They seem to be more numerous then they are because they tend to be outspoken and are unfairly given all the media attention as if they speak for the rest of us.  Then people look at them and think the entire religion must be to blame.  Heck, just look at Lucius's profile.  And for the record, there is nothing in Christianity that condones any of their behavior. 

And as I said, you have them, we don't. My point wasn't that they were the majority in the US, nor do I believe I ever said so.

And as for my profile, however pleased I am that you have such a keen interest in me , I do believe it states that I loathe religion with all my heart when it is "abused in the extreme" or some such.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You said in your profile that you loathe religion because it represents the worst of humanity when abused. News flash: that has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with human nature. A policeman can abuse his authority to bully others. Do you loathe all law enforcement agencies now? A teacher can abuse his/her authority or position. I guess you hate all public schools now, huh? A business owner can abuse his/her postion in the company to bully or manipulate the workers. You surely must loathe capitalism now. See my point here?

 

I've seen the ignorant statements you've made about religon in the past, and this is nothing new. I'm no fundamentalist, but I tend to defend my faith when people make ignorant statements about it.

[Judge Hades]

I simply loathe God.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What did she ever do to you?

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She, he, or it has done many things to earn my ire.

[Child of Flame]

Actually, in truth, I think under God should be taken out of the pledge, as that's how it was originally written, and I would have been opposed to it being added had I been around when it was.

 

I am opposed in general to religion mixing with politics, and especially using religion as a political tool, which is the reason it was added in during the Cold War, to create 'unity' among the people.

[Reveilled]

She, he, or it has done many things to earn my ire.

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Well, I know she's a bit of a mean drunk, and she might have ruined a few parties, but I think loathing is going a bit far...

[Dark Moth]

Actually, in truth, I think under God should be taken out of the pledge, as that's how it was originally written, and I would have been opposed to it being added had I been around when it was. 

 

I am opposed in general to religion mixing with politics, and especially using religion as a political tool, which is the reason it was added in during the Cold War, to create 'unity' among the people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You're probably right. It would have been better had it not been added in the first place. The pledge had enough unity in it without mixing in religion. But as I've said, the only reason I'm opposed to the current situation is because I don't agree with their methods or actions. There would be better ways to change the pledge aside from banning it altogether.

[Shadowstrider]

why is having washington or franklin present signifficant?  they spoke on such issues when they were alive and we has their quotes and more importantly we has history to tell us how they acted.  people say all kinds of crazy stuff, but you can see what they really believe by looking at how they act.

 

They may have spoken on an issue, that doesn't mean they covered it completely. Politicians have also been known to do strange things, like vote for something they thought was wrong and defend their decision. Thats not to say I believe the framers or founding fathers did this. Simply that people do crazy things, as you yourself said, thusly I don't really intend to debate intent.

 

as to your polls, we can show just as many polls that evidence that while people support the notion of separation o' church and state, not so many see it as meaning Wall of Separation.  just wait for christmas to roll around again and the nativity-scene-on-the-courthouse-lawn becomes an issue again.  see what the polss tell you 'bout what folks believe.

 

As the romans used to say, the public is a fickle mob. Generally speaking what I said was true, which was my point.

 

"It is the Court's duty to rule on what is legal or illegal based on current precedents and law. Congress has the ability to overturn a court's ruling (although the check is in very vague language). Too date they haven't, to my knowledge."

 

...

 

you got some strange notions... wrong notions.  regardless, legal precedent still got absolutely nopthing whatsoever to do with public opinion.

 

HA! Good Fun!

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Public opinion thankfully doesn't control law, either. I don't see how my notions are wrong, either.

[Lucius]

You said in your profile that you loathe religion because it represents the worst of humanity when abused.  News flash: that has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with human nature.  A policeman can abuse his authority to bully others.  Do you loathe all law enforcement agencies now?  A teacher can abuse his/her authority or position.  I guess you hate all public schools now, huh?  A business owner can abuse his/her postion in the company to bully or manipulate the workers.  You surely must loathe capitalism now.  See my point here? 

 

I've seen the ignorant statements you've made about religon in the past, and this is nothing new.  I'm no fundamentalist, but I tend to defend my faith when people make ignorant statements about it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cry me a river, this is the usual rant from you. "Christianity is not to blame, people are to blame!" Well NEWSFLASH for you kiddo, people created Christianity, they run it, and those fundamentalists in the US represents a minority of Christianity and so does their bigoted views.

There are of course far more good Christians than bad, no doubt, but like it or not, many people are driven to the extreme in the name of their religion and its scriptures, and that is what I loathe about religion! Islam and your religion in particular.

 

PS. Don't talk to me about ignorance, mr. I-don't-agree-with-homosexuality.

[Dark Moth]

You said in your profile that you loathe religion because it represents the worst of humanity when abused.  News flash: that has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with human nature.  A policeman can abuse his authority to bully others.  Do you loathe all law enforcement agencies now?  A teacher can abuse his/her authority or position.  I guess you hate all public schools now, huh?  A business owner can abuse his/her postion in the company to bully or manipulate the workers.  You surely must loathe capitalism now.  See my point here? 

 

I've seen the ignorant statements you've made about religon in the past, and this is nothing new.  I'm no fundamentalist, but I tend to defend my faith when people make ignorant statements about it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cry me a river, this is the usual rant from you. "Christianity is not to blame, people are to blame!" Well NEWSFLASH for you kiddo, people created Christianity, they run it, and those fundamentalists in the US represents a minority of Christianity and and so does their bigoted views.

There are of course far more good Christians than bad, no doubt, but like it or not, many people are driven to the extreme in the name of their religion and its scriptures, and that is what I loathe about religion! Islam and your religion in particular.

 

PS. Don't talk to me about ignorance, mr. I-don't-agree-with-homosexuality.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

(invokes "l33t shield of Jesus phr34chs" power)

 

You're doing it again! You're only proving my point even more. So you admit now that most Christians are good, but you still loathe the institution? Okay, I think I see what's going on here. I'll say it again: it is human nature, not religion. And I reiterate everything I said in my above post.

 

Of course, being a Christian, I do believe my religion was divinely inspired, I admit. But even if it was started by people, you can't argue that it is not a religion that urges the best of humanity. I know, because I've actually read the book. And let's please leave the whole "human sexuality" thread out of this.

[Judge Hades]

Urges the best in humanity? What a load of s**t.

[Dark Moth]

Urges the  best in humanity?  What a load of s**t.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

ooh...there's another one. Hey, this is fun!

[Lucius]

Are you a natural at putting words in other peoples mouth or did you take lessons?

 

1) I never said that most Christians wasn't good, I stated that I loathe religion when abused in the extremes, such as the Christian fundamentalists in the US and the jihadists of Islam, both minorities claim to be following their respective scriptures and that they act in the name of said religions. If these religions did not exist, would they still have the same kind of devout hatred for whatever it is that they hate? I don't know, but I do know that religion and worship play a huge part in their lives, and as you would probably say, they got it all wrong.

 

2) I don't think I ever said that I 'hate' faith, I just find it silly.

 

3) I will leave human sexuaity out, just as long as you remember that "One shouldn't throw rocks when one lives in a glass house"

[alanschu]

Odd that Lucius is ok with his official church since no one particularly agrees with it, nor even seems to care about it, yet two little words in a country that he doesn't even belong to makes a big kafuffle for him.

[Judge Hades]

I have dealt with Christianity, studied the religion, the history, and my share of believers. It does not urge the best of humanity. Any God who would be willing to torture an individual for all of eternity is not a good God, yet if you do not except Jesus in your heart, as the tenet goes, that is exactly what your fate will be when you die.

 

No crime in the heavens or the earth is severe enough to warrant eternal damnation, yet it is the Christian belief that those who do not follow Jesus and God will receive such fate from their creator.

 

What Christianity urges is tyranny through fear.

[Lucius]

Odd that Lucius is ok with his official church since no one particularly agrees with it, nor even seems to care about it, yet two little words in a country that he doesn't even belong to makes a big kafuffle for him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Odd that you would even give a rats arse about what I think in a thread about a nation that you don't live in either.

 

Just shut it.