kumquatq3 Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 Perhaps if more people were making a fuss about it, then I'd understand. But most people seem to be okay with it. Just because one person whines about it doesn't give them a right to declare it unconstitutional. Until more people come out of the woodwork and complain, it can stay, as far as I'm concerned. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If something is unconstitutional, it is unconstitutional. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Show us where in the Constitution where it talks about seperation of church and state. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The phrase isn't in there. Much like the right to privace and judical review arn't in there, but the courts see these things as implied or intended, so they usually hold them as constitutional rights. If you don't like it, get on the supreme court. EDIT: You can argue that you don't think they are intended. You can't argue the courts view them, most of the time, as rights. O, and if you want to go by a strict "what is written" definition: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" A pledge law is a establishment of religion if it contains "under god", in a publicly funded school. The courts also found in "Board of Education of Kiryas Joel Village School District v. Grumet" that "government should not prefer one religion to another, or religion to irreligion" and made the above line apply to state laws. ahhh precident Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laozi Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 Fighting for the right to pledge your allegiance in public is infantile Why not get a job at McDonalds and really show your undying servitude for the good 'ole U.S.A. People laugh when I say that I think a jellyfish is one of the most beautiful things in the world. What they don't understand is, I mean a jellyfish with long, blond hair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomJedi Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 I think that this is ridiculous. First of all you are not required to say the pledge in school. You can acually remain seated and put your fingures in your ears while they say the pleadge if that is what you want. Second under god is a very vage phrase. Whose god? It is left to interpretation. And in the grand sceme of things does this really even matter any if much. On intresting note I would like to add. Here in Texas the Texas pledge is said in schools and for some reason it has some students of the mind that Texas is going to seced from the United States. I sort of feel I am surrounded by idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kumquatq3 Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 I think that this is ridiculous. First of all you are not required to say the pledge in school. You can acually remain seated and put your fingures in your ears while they say the pleadge if that is what you want. Second under god is a very vage phrase. Whose god? It is left to interpretation. The courts also found in "Board of Education of Kiryas Joel Village School District v. Grumet" that "government should not prefer one religion to another, or religion to irreligion" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 Errr, I think a big thing is the "at one time" is a pretty big part of your statement. I'm not going to concern myself with the right or wrong of the action, but I do think the complainers are just getting their panties in a bunch. I remember John Szafron having an interesting point, about how so many athiests that like to point out inconsistencies with religion and whatnot, and seem so educated about it, but have no real idea about the big-bang or many of the more secular ideas behind the creation of the Universe. I snickered and realized he was right! (Interesting tidbit, the Big Bang initially was frowned upon by the scientific community, because it reeked of divine intervention :D). I am an athiest (well, maybe more of an agnostic), but for some reason religious references don't piss me off. Most of my extended family is quite religious, and I don't feel as though I'm somehow being sleighted when I'm present during the saying of grace (though I don't say the Lord's Prayer at the end of it, not that it would matter as I don't know the words anyways). In fact, I remember reading up about a quote from Ernie Pyle, that was something along the lines of "There's no athiests in foxholes" to which I just snickered. I laughed because I could visualize someone praying to anything to get out of a crap situation alive. Although it's now been scrutinized by Atheist groups claiming that even faith can be undermined during war. Well whoop-dee-do. I still like the comment, even if it's not particularly true, as being pinned down in a foxhole is a situation of immense stress and I'm sure any man pinned down in a foxhole would give anything to not be in that situation. In short, I find atheists can be as big of whiny babies as the hardcore religious. And I think this is a good case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blarghagh Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 "Frankly I hate the notion that a person must unquestioningly love the country in which they live. The fact that treason is still (technically) punishable by death in countries with capital punishment makes my blood boil. The way I see it, a pledge of allegiance is just another example of this mindset. So I'm glad this ruling's been made . . . How long it'll be before it gets overturned is another matter entirely." Dude on some other forum, and I wholeheartedly agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 It doesn't matter if you are an atheist, agnostic, or religious in my opinion on this matter. It is an issue of keeping church and state separate. In recent years the church and state has slowly merging, which is wrong. We need a secular government in order to keep all religions and all people equal. Now people are talking about the tyranny of the majority, which is a concern. When it gets to that level, sucession is needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musopticon? Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 Rebellion! No, I can't make up anything worthy of posting.That'll have to do. It's a ****ty situation for sure, but doesn't really concern me. kirottu said: I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden. It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai. So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 The revolution will not be televised! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowstrider Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 "Frankly I hate the notion that a person must unquestioningly love the country in which they live. The fact that treason is still (technically) punishable by death in countries with capital punishment makes my blood boil. The way I see it, a pledge of allegiance is just another example of this mindset. So I'm glad this ruling's been made . . . How long it'll be before it gets overturned is another matter entirely." Dude on some other forum, and I wholeheartedly agree. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I disagree, if you live in a country you should be in allegiance with it. You don't have to love it. Treason isn't disliking your country. Treason is selling secrets to enemies, betraying your country, etc... I think it should be punished by death. Every secret betrayed to an enemy country could cost hundreds of lives - the fact that it could cost one is punishable by death, to me. Don't like [insert country here] then you have three choices; speak out against it, leave, do nothing about it. Traitors are reserved the worst punishment in Dante's Inferno with good reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blarghagh Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 I don't even recognize my country's existence, nor do I recognize anyone else's. I have no enemies to sell anything to. I recognize a bunch of buttholes who think they own a piece of something far older and more important than them. Borders for economic purposes are all well and fine, but when people start fighting over something that's not theirs in the first place it starts to show what's wrong with world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowstrider Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 Okay well, welcome to the real world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taks Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 Aside from the fact that you'd be extremely hard-pressed to argue that the actual folks who wrote the Constitution didn't intend separation of church and state,no i wouldn't. the Supreme Court has, in fact, established and upheld the viewpoint that the Constitution provides for equal protection and equal rights of all US citizens, meaning that any legislation limiting rights or establishing disparate status for persons of differing religions would be illegal. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> which is a different argument than "separation of church and state." you stated quite clearly "legislation limiting rights..." which is a far different matter than the words "under god" in the pledge. there is no limitation there, no requirement to even recite the pledge, and therefore no limitation. i will place odds that the supreme court will overturn this ruling, which will also refute your insistence on a legal standard that has never been called out by anyone other than politicians... taks comrade taks... just because. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammael Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 The Pledge of Allegiance is pure nationalism at its worst. When I first heard it after my arrival in the U.S., I thought it was a joke, as it sounds eerily similar to the "communist pioneer pledge" we had to say back when I was in elementary school (and my country was still a communist one). There are no doors in Jefferson that are "special game locked" doors. There are no characters in that game that you can kill that will result in the game ending prematurely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blarghagh Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 Okay well, welcome to the real world. I'm going to keep living in my fantasy world, I don't require Prozac and drugs to be happy there like everyone outside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kumquatq3 Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 Okay well, welcome to the real world. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm going to keep living in my fantasy world, I don't require Prozac and drugs to be happy there like everyone outside. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You made me think of: Imagine there's no heaven,It's easy if you try, No hell below us, Above us only sky, Imagine all the people living for today... Imagine there's no countries, It isnt hard to do, Nothing to kill or die for, No religion too, Imagine all the people living life in peace... Imagine no possesions, I wonder if you can, No need for greed or hunger, A brotherhood of man, Imagine all the people Sharing all the world... You may say Im a dreamer, but Im not the only one, I hope some day you'll join us, And the world will live as one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musopticon? Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 Kum, that was quite...lamey. kirottu said: I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden. It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai. So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kumquatq3 Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 Kum, that was quite...lamey. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I didn't say I agree with the guy, but what he was saying made me think of "Imagine" and you love it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musopticon? Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 What else could I do? Oh, kum. kirottu said: I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden. It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai. So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf16 Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 Love that song I had thought that some of nature's journeymen had made men and not made them well, for they imitated humanity so abominably. - Book of Counted Sorrows 'Cause I won't know the man that kills me and I don't know these men I kill but we all wind up on the same side 'cause ain't none of us doin' god's will. - Everlast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 John Lennon. Smart man. Shot in the back. Very sad. For the most part I am not a Beatles fan but there are a few John Lennon songs that I like. This is one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musopticon? Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 "John Lennon. Smart man. Shot in the back. Very sad." That's quote-worthy. kirottu said: I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden. It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai. So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 One of the best lines in that Will Smith/Jeff Goldblum movie. Independence Day if memory serves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musopticon? Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 ID4? kirottu said: I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden. It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai. So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baley Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 Independence Day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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