Story in games?

[Musopticon?]

I agree with Fishboot; although with less obvious fanboyness.

[Gromnir]

I know everyone here would like to blame teenagers for where money gets spent in the gaming world, but the average age of gamers has been rising through the 20s for many years now.  Many gamers are adults with disposable income for entertainment who have limited chunks of time for gaming.  For a variety of reasons, they can't sit in front of a monitor or TV for twelve hours at a time to play through an intricate 80-hour game.

 

As a result, games that have high production values, appealing main characters, and a shallow learning curve often do better than games that lack these things.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

this explanation would make perfect sense... if there were only one kind of game/gamer.

 

in the 70s, people wanted cars that got better gas mileage, so auto makers made cars that were smaller and lighter and more aerodynamic, etc. however, ferrari not try to make a gas efficient sports car, and while ford and chevy tried to produce gas efficient trucks, the average farmer kansas still needed a vehicle with some muscle. trite oversimplification? sure.

 

the average gamer wants all those things josh stated 'bove, but is that what the average crpg player wants? as much as we hear that the average gamer wants a 20-30 hour game... tops, we has met very few crpg players that want such games.

 

*shrug*

 

am not sure where developers get their data, but it just not seem to take into account the expectation of crpg fans.

 

'course, Gromnir recognizes that he is dealing with mostly gut feeling and anecdotal evidence, but while crpg fans we see across multiple boards seem willing to accept games of 40 hours, they surely not want 20-30 hour games.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Calax]

at least Japan hasn't abandoned story telling (THANK YOU XENOSAGA/XENOGEARS!!)

[J.E. Sawyer]

Before going too much further, I'd like to state my opinion on stories in recent games. God of War has a great story with good voice acting. Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory has a well-developed story with great writing and voice acting. Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater has a melodramatic, complex story -- but for what it is (a Metal Gear game), it is well done. If you want good stories, there are plenty of games out there with good stories. If you ONLY want a certain type of story in a very narrow framework of a specific type of RPG, okay, I guess things have been pretty thin lately.

 

The CRPG gamer, average or otherwise, is a subset of the larger gaming community. When people bemoan the lack of stories in games, I think they need to be reminded that "the average gamer" isn't a CRPG enthusiast.

 

To extend the car analogy, Porsche used to (essentially) develop one car with a few variants: the 911. It was a sports car for sports car enthusiasts. Recently, Porsche realized that they had a very narrow market so they started making the Boxster. The Boxster is significantly different from the 911, most obviously in price. Even more recently, they introduced the Porsche Cayenne, an SUV. They all hit their markets very well, and all appeal to different types of people.

 

Old 911 enthusiasts long for the air-cooled days and believe that the development of the Boxster, Cayenne and (now) the Cayman detracts from the purity of the 911. To a certain extent, the 911 owners have a point; you'll see more Boxsters on the road than 911s, and a surprising number of Cayennes. But not everyone is able to have exactly what the 911 is, and Porsche survives and thrives by appealing to other markets.

 

Similarly, the gaming market has grown and changed. CRPGs used to be a strong market with a large representation among the greater gaming crowd. CRPGs can still sell well, but they aren't the powerhouse they once were. Developers might survive on CRPGs alone, but publishers cannot. And with many developers, they have to either differentiate from the competition or be "best of breed". Development costs are too high now for devs/pubs to do otherwise.

 

In summary, if you want good stories in games, I believe you can find them all over the place in many different genres. If you want good stories in a specific type of CRPG, you are going to have to look through a huge number of titles that don't qualify -- because a lot of people like playing those "other" games.

[Mordrian]

Morrowind tried, but both the story, and the way they put it forth, sucked so much ass it doesn't even deserve to be called a rpg!

Do you have to float such asinine fanboy/anti-fanboyish statements? It degrades the forums. I would be surprised if this thread doesn't turn out idiotic because it was planted in such weak soil.

 

Bleah. "Story" is such a nebulous concept I can't see how anyone could take the initial screed seriously. Are broad or sympathetic characters story? Is intricate plotting story? Is some kind of Joseph Cambell-ian allusion to elemental archetypes story? Is length story? Is scope story? Is relevance story? Is subtext story? I have no idea what you're talking about.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hahaha seriously, don't take it personally because you don't have the same opinion as me. I wasn't saying that this is the truth, I only said what I personally thought in a harsh way, because it's easier for me to express myself in that way in english.. and it's fun too sometimes. None anti-fanboyish statements I believe.. I enjoyed the game otherwise, just not the story itself, the storytelling and the boring characters.

 

Yes, "Story" is a very nebulous concept, but I think that you're just playing real dumb, because you got angry over my previous statements. :cool: But if you didn't understand, as I stated perhaps all wouldn't, then let me try again, just for you. What I mean by story, is how well the characters in the game are written, how fun, interesting and intelligent the main and possible sub plots are, and how well that is put forth in the game.

 

------------------

 

Haha, I at least didn't take that talk about teenagers with money seriously.

[Gromnir]

so again, it ain't that crpg fans want short games... is just the mythical average gamer. let us not lose sight o' that. so when a developer of crpgs explains that gamers want shorter games

[J.E. Sawyer]

I tried to be clear about what I was and wasn't defining in my first post. Sorry if that wasn't successful.

[6 Foot Invisible Rabbit]

What I am looking for in a CRPG is a balance between Morrowind's openness and Jade Empire's/KotOR's story. RIght now we are getting extremes and extremes are good once in a great great great while but a balance between story and nonlinear exploring, kind of what was there in the Fallouts and BG 1 would be nice.

 

I am just glad J.E. is back with Chris A. and Ferret. Things are almost back to "normal" in the CRPG world just as long as J.E. doesn't make grenades as melee weapons in Project New Jersey.

[mkreku]

My cousin recently finished Jade Empire using 12-14 hours of gametime (I forgot the exact amount and I'm not home right now to check) and only played for 15 minutes to 1 hour at a time. I think he is close to the "mythical average game" as he usually plays only when there's a friend around (we have had huge battles in Colin McRae Rally 2005, Forza Motorsport, Fight Night Round 2 and so on) or just before he goes to bed.

 

It feels to me that what the original poster meant as a story is the type of "hold my hand while I play the game" story that you found in the old IE games. I, personally, don't miss those types of stories, as I prefer the open-ended stories that aren't crammed down your throat when you play the game. Also, I think that's where the progress in both technology and development is taking us: a less obvious way of telling great stories, where you're free to do what you want in a (sort of) world simulation, where the story is over-arching and subtle, instead of forced-on and linear.

[Gromnir]

got it...

 

just figured that it were... helpful to clarify your clarification.

 

am not blaming on josh, but Gromnir has often 'nuff heard how gamers want shorter games. such an observation is made frequently by crpg developers who is currently developing crpgs. heck, they may even post such observations on their crpg development company's message boards. Is like they is playing the old shell game

[Mordrian]

Before going too much further, I'd like to state my opinion on stories in recent games.  God of War has a great story with good voice acting.  Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory has a well-developed story with great writing and voice acting.  Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater has a melodramatic, complex story -- but for what it is (a Metal Gear game), it is well done.  If you want good stories, there are plenty of games out there with good stories.  If you ONLY want a certain type of story in a very narrow framework of a specific type of RPG, okay, I guess things have been pretty thin lately.

 

In summary, if you want good stories in games, I believe you can find them all over the place in many different genres.  If you want good stories in a specific type of CRPG, you are going to have to look through a huge number of titles that don't qualify -- because a lot of people like playing those "other" games.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would just like to add at first, that I don't only isolate myself with CRPGs. If that would be the case, I would probably be playing 2 weeks per year maximum, because that's how often I'd get my hands on a decent CRPG.

 

I have to agree with you on what you said about voice acting. It's been improving more and more. What I can't agree with you on is that for example Splinter Cell(Haven't played God of War) would have a well-developed story. Say if Splinter Cell would have been a movie instead? It would probably have ended up between some B action movies in my oppinion. No matter mostly what type of game it is, I think that if you have a story in a game, it should make you want to jump in there and try to help the characters out. You should feel involved. I felt most all the time I couldn't care less about what happened to that dude. It was just fun sneaking around in the dark and do the things he does. Just not my cup of tea storywise at least.

 

It's interesting though, how everyone(?) expect more and more from how well written the characters are, to how developed the plot is in a game. It's not going as fast as the technology in a game seems to be moving, but at least it seems to move forward more and more, mostly thinking of FPS now. It's going to be interesting to see if it's been improved noticably in a few years.

[Mordrian]

What I am looking for in a CRPG is a balance between Morrowind's openness and Jade Empire's/KotOR's story.  RIght now we are getting extremes and extremes are good once in a great great great while but a balance between story and nonlinear exploring, kind of what was there in the Fallouts and BG 1 would be nice.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agree with you a 100%. It's fun as you say, with extremes once in a while. But there's something in between that what I'm looking for. Though we are probably always going to demand more and more everytime we get what we want.

[EnderAndrew]

Anyone who wants to call CRPGs the Porche of the gaming industry I'm down with.

 

I agree with Sawyer that good stories can be found in other genres, but I believe that certain developers have chosen to focus on gameplay or graphics over story. And some people just aren't great storytelllers.

[Mordrian]

Anyone who wants to call CRPGs the Porche of the gaming industry I'm down with. 

 

I agree with Sawyer that good stories can be found in other genres, but I believe that certain developers have chosen to focus on gameplay or graphics over story.  And some people just aren't great storytelllers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, of course they can be found in every genre, just are less common imo.

Second that with the porche.

[Setzer]

So why aren't there more developers that are trying to create their own story? More games that are heavily dependant on the story in the game. Why aren't they trying to copy the achievements of successful companies like Bioware? Can't they see many are not satisfied with what are available today? Is it that difficult to make a game with some sort of intresting story, or are they just not interested?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The less time spent developing a game means the faster they can start working on the next one and the next one. It's all about making money. I don't think this has anything to do with what the 'average' gamer wants as it is more games = more money. Yet, quality games can still be made this way just don't expect to see another 100+ hour game like the BG2.

 

Now I haven't played JE yet, but I went out and bought it before reading ANY reviews on it. Why? Because Bioware has a reputation for making good, long RPG's with a good story. Now to read people say they finished it in 10-15 hrs was a big let down for me. Yes, the game is good, or at least its been receiving a lot of praise, but the one common, major drawback is its length and to me spending $50 on a game, especially an RPG, that will provide me with 10-15 hrs of entertainment isn't worth it, in my opinion. I don't care how good the story is. I may spend $5 and go to my local video store and rent it for 5 days but that's about it.

[Guest Fishboot]

What I mean by story, is how well the characters in the game are written, how fun, interesting and intelligent the main and possible sub plots are, and how well that is put forth in the game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How "well" the characters in the game are written is also a basically meaningless statement in the context of story. Was Minsc a good character? He's memorable, he's funny to many players, he's even a little touching in a Lenny kind of way. But he's sure as heck not realistic; he's certainly not deep, his subtext is that he breaks the fourth wall. I, personally, would say that Minsc was "well written" - but he has essentially no plot content and in fact damages immersion with his presence.

 

Don't get me wrong, Minsc was a great character - I wouldn't change a thing about him. But he's not "good story" personified.

 

I dunno, I'm out of spit and vinegar now, so let me wind down a bit. What great story was there in the good ol' days? Are you pining for Infocom? Or PS:T? Be specific - don't use the words "well" or "fun" or "intelligent".

 

For my part I'm willing to go where the developers go - there's no mythical mode of "story" that will pander exactly to my tastes. I want to get something I didn't expect.

[Cantousent]

One thing upon which we should agree with Sawyer is that it isn't the "teen" crowd that's changing the face of computer gaming. Until someone can come up with some hard information regarding gamer demographics, then I'll be forced to assume that the average gamer age is rising. Computer games are a maturing industry, with staggering production values. The folks who shell out the cash for these titles aren't likely to be those horrid young whipper-snappers.

 

I'd like to know the reliable basis upon which folks assume these effects come from younger gamers. Really. Is it the language? I know educated adults who write in this leet speak business. u no who u r. Is it the desire for a gameplay (mechanic) rather than story based game? Give me a break! Is it the maturity level of posters? Do you honestly think that all the trolls and flamers around these parts are teens?

 

We don't need good stories in bad games. We need good stories supported by a good game engine with good combat. ultimately, we want a great story with great gameplay. We very rarely get that.

 

Simple games such as Dialbo and Dungeon Siege have great appeal for the adult gamers I know. I am among their number.

 

Of course, and this isn't a sign I feel bad for criticizing Sawyer, when we get a game that manages to combine a more detailed story with great gameplay, such as IWD, folks deride it as a "hack and slash" title. My fishy friend made a good point when questioning the very idea of the story driven game. I'm a great fan of adventure games, but RPGs they are not. ...And adventure games didn't dwindle to insignificance owing to the "teen" crowd. If story driven RPGs go to the wayside, then the blame will rest on something other than the "teen" crowd as well.

 

Sure, there should be room for more computer gaming genres. I suspect that millions of dollars are lost every year because the folks in charge of the corporate budget don't see the value in creating these games. We have to ask ourselves: is there money to be made? If we were the bean counters, would we support the outlay for a "story driven" title? If there is money to be made, then why has support for such games been eroding? ...Or has it?

 

Not only that, but we now look upon Microsoft as the evil empire. Why don't we try to make them the "good empire" or even, should iit come down to that, the "not so terrible empire." Why don't we somehow make it clear to the folks at x-box that there is a dollar to be made in a well constructed RPG?

 

If RPG players spent less time trying to tear down the other genres and more time trying to introduce folks to our particular brand of fun, then it would be much better. If our hobby doesn't support an industry, we have no right to complain.

[J.E. Sawyer]

What I can't agree with you on is that for example Splinter Cell(Haven't played God of War) would have a well-developed story. Say if Splinter Cell would have been a movie instead? It would probably have ended up between some B action movies in my oppinion.

http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0439829/

 

I think most RPGs would be lucky to reach B-movie status. Splinter Cell stories are modern day "what-if" spy fantasy tales. As such, the amount of implausible or absurd stuff in them is generally a lot less than, say, a Forgotten Realms RPG. Sam, Lambert, Redding, and Gr

[Cantousent]

I took this quote from a discussion on the NWN2 boards. Too bad Gaider's design skills aren't as good as this particular quote. Thanks, Syrsuro, for the cite.

 

For example, David Gaider recently said:

 

"Immersion" is one of those words, however, that many people tend to use as a reflex... like "freedom" and "linear"... to the point where it has almost stopped having meaning. Most times, when I see these words being invoked in the context of someone's complaint or suggestion, I ignore it. I don't do so to be rude, but just because when these terms are involved the result tends to either be self-contradictory and/or subjective to a fault. Which is all fine and well, perhaps, but it certainly doesn't help me as a developer any.

[EnderAndrew]

People forget how profitable and popular the James Bond franchise is. Splinter Cell could be a very profitable movie franchise if not for the fact Hollywood hasn't figured out how to develop a video game property as a movie. It took them forever to learn how to properly treat comic book properties.

[SteveThaiBinh]

The natural vehicle for good story-telling is the adventure game. For the genre to realise its potential, it needs to overcome the object-puzzle conventions of the point-and-click adventure (as the Fahrenheit article said). It also needs some advances in technology - Facade is an interesting attempt but not a satisfying experience as it stands. I don't think we necessarily need shorter or simpler games in order to satisfy adult gamers, but we do need games that are divided into chapters of a manageable length, in the manner of TV dramas or soaps. That is a challenge for writers in the future. Lastly, there needs to be some clever marketing: when developers get all of the above right, they'll have a product that should sell well outside the traditional gaming market. The interactive movie has been promised but not delivered for a very long time, and I doubt we're anywhere near it yet, but the potential market for it is so large that I'm sure we'll get there some day.

 

Are RPGs limited by their setting? It's not easy to write an interesting and non-cliched story in the fantasy genre, as shelf after shelf of my local bookshop will testify. There are some great writers and some great stories, but not so many. This is one reason why I wish there were more RPGs set in the real world, modern or historical. That wouldn't solve the problem by itself, but it might inspire the writers to produce something a bit different, at least.

[Cantousent]

The problem is that a great game doesn't require a great story and some great stories don't make for very good games.

[EnderAndrew]

Text-based adventure games like the Infocom classics were very well suited for telling stories. JRPGs are also well suited for telling stories as often they are linear, with set characters, and feature many cinematic sequences. People complain about these very features, but they allow for a controlled story.

[Calax]

before voice acting they could allow you to make names for everybody, In FF7 for example I've had an entire group named Aeris (got very confusing)

 

Anyway, I think that in the future we'll see a much larger emphasis on story telling (they are doing this for twilight princess) because more women/girls are playing games. Girls often do not like MMO's because they are static so company's are starting to loose money from this (not to say there arn't girls who play these, it's just not the trend). Thus to get these ladies back into games the dev's are starting to have to focus more on story.

 

This I picked up in Intro to Game Design at college before I quit. I'm at a JC going for a history deg so don't expect much more from me about Game Design then I've already said.

[EnderAndrew]

Are you suggesting that women are more interested in stories than men?

 

And I don't know that any Zelda title will really feature much of an original story. They all seem to basically tell the same story over and over again.