Was Kreia Evil?

[Stargate: 2000]

Kreia cared nothing for anyone's lives.  Throughout the entire game, she constantly shows that she only views others around her as her pawns.  Add that to the fact that she had a selfish, personal motivation for everything she did, and of course wanted to destroy the force because she thought it was evil.  If Kreia really did believe she was neutral, then she was blind to her own nature.  She was also a hypocrite, and betrays everyone around her whom she claims to care about, even the exile.  She deserved to die. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But honestly how is that behaviour any different than the Jedi Masters? Most of the Jedi masters (to me atleast) seemed to be very selfish in the way they acted, they were more concerned about the safety of the jedi order and more importantly themselves over that of the rest of the universe. Not too mention the fact that they wanted to destroy the Exile not because s/he was evil but because they didn't fully understand what s/he was. It pissed me off to no end when you could have been so pure that you had a beam of light comming out of you butt, but instead of trying to help fight the true threat all they could see is the danger that you MIGHT pose to them and their way of being. Now too me that doesn't sound like a very piller of light thing to do, does it? agian this draws back to the horrible ending that was forced upon us as gammers.

 

Just because she says she's not evil doesnt discredit the actions she commits and advises the character on. She says "I'm not evil.." then gives you influence points for admitting that your allies are nothing but slaves who should be sacrificed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But what I was getting at was that the devs tried to make her seem not evil while not being good, well atleast compaired to the other Sith lords in the game. She may have had some wacked out ideas but what she was trying to do throughout the whole game was not influence you by pushing her beleifs onto you (like other jedi and sith masters seemed to so in both KOTOR and TSL) but forceing you to make you own decisions and to also learn that with all the decisions that you could make they would have a price. A good example of this was the begger on Nar Shadaa If you gave him money then you would see that he would get mugged, and if you didn't then he would live to see another day. Personally I think is she would have had a little bit more work done on her and the cut content about Atris not been cut then she would have turned out to be a different character all together and purhaps one of the better characters in the whole game, namely because the exile and her had so much convo options compaired to the others in your group. Because the forcing of her to be the final sith lord really only took away from the character rather than adding too it.

Edited October 23, 2005 by Stargate: 2000

[Stargate: 2000]

Kreia didn't care about anything. She wanted it all to end. The death of the Force, daeth on everything.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not true in the entire game it never lets on that Kreia wanted everything dead in fact all she wanted was the force out of the way so that people could grow and learn on their own, instead of being controlled or governed by the force. And she also thought that because the exile had learned to live without the force that it was indeed possible to kill the force without killing everything.

[Akhan225]

Personally I think is she would have had a little bit more work done on her and the cut content about Atris not been but then she would have turned out to be a different character all together and purhaps one of the better characters in the whole game, namely because the exile and her had so much convo options compaired to the others in your group. Because the forcing of her to be the final sith lord really only took away from the character rather than adding too it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah. Her intentions are sketchy at best, never made entirely clear. Side effect of the cutting. Some times she was neutral, other times, she wanted to make you see that the world was weak without suffering, which the jedi seemed to try and stop.

[Stargate: 2000]

Personally I think is she would have had a little bit more work done on her and the cut content about Atris not been but then she would have turned out to be a different character all together and purhaps one of the better characters in the whole game, namely because the exile and her had so much convo options compaired to the others in your group. Because the forcing of her to be the final sith lord really only took away from the character rather than adding too it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah. Her intentions are sketchy at best, never made entirely clear. Side effect of the cutting. Some times she was neutral, other times, she wanted to make you see that the world was weak without suffering, which the jedi seemed to try and stop.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can understand what your getting at but the thing is that the jedi belive the samething, I remember one of the jedi (I think it was a jedi) at the enclave in KOTOR saying much the same thing to the player when asked what to do about the mandalorian attacks on that farmer and his family (the one where canderous says he should have been stronger and it wouldn't have happened - saying he is in you party when you meet the guy). But the jedi like to let people deal with their own problems rather than try to solve them for them since it would only cause the people to depend too much on the jedi.

[Akhan225]

Yeah. Her intentions are sketchy at best, never made entirely clear. Side effect of the cutting. Some times she was neutral, other times, she wanted to make you see that the world was weak without suffering, which the jedi seemed to try and stop.

I can understand what your getting at but the thing is that the jedi belive the samething, I remember one of the jedi (I think it was a jedi) at the enclave in KOTOR saying much the same thing to the player when asked what to do about the mandalorian attacks on that farmer and his family (the one where canderous says he should have been stronger and it wouldn't have happened - saying he is in you party when you meet the guy). But the jedi like to let people deal with their own problems rather than try to solve them for them since it would only cause the people to depend too much on the jedi.

OK. But after completing your training in KOTOR I and gaining the quest "Sandral/ Matale fued" Vrook says that it is in the real world and its problems where jedi distinguish(maybe "prove") themselves.

I understand what you are getting at as well. I was swayed to vote her Evil because of my impresions of her in the game. That, and i just dont like her all that much.

Edited October 23, 2005 by Akhan225

[Dark Moth]

But honestly how is that behaviour any different than the Jedi Masters? Most of the Jedi masters (to me atleast) seemed to be very selfish in the way they acted, they were more concerned about the safety of the jedi order and more importantly themselves over that of the rest of the universe. Not too mention the fact that they wanted to destroy the Exile not because s/he was evil but because they didn't fully understand what s/he was. It pissed me off to no end when you could have been so pure that you had a beam of light comming out of you butt, but instead of trying to help fight the true threat all they could see is the danger that you MIGHT pose to them and their way of being. Now too me that doesn't sound like a very piller of light thing to do, does it? agian this draws back to the horrible ending that was forced upon us as gammers.

The Jedi Masters at least acted because they thought the exile would bring harm to the galaxy (and not without good reason). I didn't like the way they all turned on you in the end, but I still think it was better than what Kreia had done. She was only concerned about herself.

But what I was getting at was that the devs tried to make her seem not evil while not being good, well atleast compaired to the other Sith lords in the game. She may have had some wacked out ideas but what she was trying to do throughout the whole game was not influence you by pushing her beleifs onto you (like other jedi and sith masters seemed to so in both KOTOR and TSL) but forceing you to make you own decisions and to also learn that with all the decisions that you could make they would have a price. A good example of this was the begger on Nar Shadaa If you gave him money then you would see that he would get mugged, and if you didn't then he would live to see another day. Personally I think is she would have had a little bit more work done on her and the cut content about Atris not been cut then she would have turned out to be a different character all together and purhaps one of the better characters in the whole game, namely because the exile and her had so much convo options compaired to the others in your group. Because the forcing of her to be the final sith lord really only took away from the character rather than adding too it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How can you even say that? Of course she was trying to push her beliefs on you throughout the game. Anytime you did something she didn't like, she was always quick to yell at you and tell you how you were wrong and she was right. And if you disagreed with her, you of course lost influence. Don't even try to say she didn't push her beliefs on you. As for the beggar situation, if Kreia had her way, nobody would help each other in the world, and we'd be far worse off. Her philosophy doesn't help anybody. It only favors the "strong" over the "weak" and encourages one to be selfish. Sure doing the right thing may backfire sometimes, but it more often than not has a positive outcome, not a negative one.

 

Perfect example: Kreia yells at you when you help return Lootra's wife to him. Yet if you hadn't helped him, the two of them would likely have been separated forever, all because of Kreia's selfish "don't help the weak" philosphy. And of course, helping them didn't produce any negative outcome.

 

Not true in the entire game it never lets on that Kreia wanted everything dead in fact all she wanted was the force out of the way so that people could grow and learn on their own, instead of being controlled or governed by the force. And she also thought that because the exile had learned to live without the force that it was indeed possible to kill the force without killing everything.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You kill the force, you kill life. The exile himself wasn't even cut off from the force, he was merely deafaned to it, as the Jedi Masters tell you later in the game. And the force never manipulates or controls humans, contrary to what Kreia believed, so pretty much all her motivations were false. Just like she and her philosphies were false.

[Stargate: 2000]

OK. But after completing your training in KOTOR I and gaining the quest "Sandral/ Matale fued" Vrook says that it is in the real world and its problems where jedi distinguish(maybe "prove") themselves.

I understand what you are getting at as well. I was swayed to vote her Evil because of my impresions of her in the game. That, and i just dont like her all that much.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The part I underlined was what I found most interesting in you last comment, and what I was trying to convey before, if she had been properly polished and the cut content of Atris hadn't been cut then I think she would have turned out to one of the better characters. Personally I didn't like her either but I still don't belive that she was evil.

 

The Jedi Masters at least acted because they thought the exile would bring harm to the galaxy (and not without good reason).  I didn't like the way they all turned on you in the end, but I still think it was better than what Kreia had done.  She was only concerned about herself.

Ok but they acted out of fear not reason, they were afraid that the exile would bring their deaths, the death of the Galaxy was a side thought too them. She may have been only out for herself but the thing is if she was only out for herself then why would she want the force dead since it would lead to her being killed along with everyone else... saying the death of the force would kill everything.

 

How can you even say that?  Of course she was trying to push her beliefs on you throughout the game.  Anytime you did something she didn't like, she was always quick to yell at you and tell you how you were wrong and she was right.  And if you disagreed with her, you of course lost influence.  Don't even try to say she didn't push her beliefs on you.  As for the beggar situation, if Kreia had her way, nobody would help each other in the world, and we'd be far worse off.  Her philosophy doesn't help anybody.  It only favors the "strong" over the "weak" and encourages one to be selfish.  Sure doing the right thing may backfire sometimes, but it more often than not has a positive outcome, not a negative one.   

 

Perfect example: Kreia yells at you when you help return Lootra's wife to him.  Yet if you hadn't helped him, the two of them would likely have been separated forever, all because of Kreia's selfish "don't help the weak" philosphy.  And of course, helping them didn't produce any negative outcome.

 

Ok your right on that she was sort of pushing her ideas onto the PC but the thing is that once you went and talked to her on the hawk she always gave you a reason why she got mad, also what about Bastila she got mad at the PC a lot in KOTOR when you did something evil in her presence.

 

You kill the force, you kill life.  The exile himself wasn't even cut off from the force, he was merely deafaned to it, as the Jedi Masters tell you later in the game.  And the force never manipulates or controls humans, contrary to what Kreia believed, so pretty much all her motivations were false.  Just like she and her philosphies were false. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not really accurate you weren't even deffend to the force you were a vaccumm in the force where the force was silenced by your presence. So in effect you were cut off from the force, purhaps more so than anyone else had ever been, Also if what you say was true then no one could ever be cut off from the force and there has been a few people who were cut off from the force by the jedi masters. I remember people talking about people in the comics who were cut off from the force, so the force isn't life it is merely an exstention of it and killing the force would only limit a persons perceptions of the world around them and not kill them like you said about.

[DarthDakk]

I'm suprised this is really in issue...

 

Actually... she was both neutral and darkside ('evil'). She starts the game neutral aligned and then later returns to her dark side alignment when she feel she has reached a conclusion about the 'exile' and leaves the party. Just check out her alignment anytime she is in your party and you will clearly see she is neither lightside or darkside... she is neutral. If you have read some of the expanded star wars universe lore you will notice that, occasionally, characters who are Sith or Jedi strive to remove themselves from their the stereotypes associated with either 'side'. In Kreia's case she is fascinated, absorbed, and even obsessed with an anomaly in the force... not unlike a scientist so captivated by an experiment that they don't care if the results will ultimately prove them right/wrong or affect them personally. This is not unlike modern politics where individuals of a particular affiliation (republican/democrat) diverge from their own parties take on an issue and become so focused on the principles of the issue itself that they rise above the labels that have been placed on them.

 

Darth Sion makes it clear that Kreia aka Darth Traya (a Sith Lord and thus evil) was obsessed with the exile because he/she was able to walk the line between Sith and Jedi, exiled not just from the order, but from the Force. Early on you learn that she too is an exile from the Jedi Order, and like every other Jedi who left the order, became a Sith. She wanted to observe and learn from the exile and share in the exile's experience of being 'divorced' from the force and returning to the force all the while walking the line between Jedi and Sith. She was testing the exile becuase she/he was a 'wound', an anomaly, in the force and could see that the exile wielded the force still, albeit subtly, in the way the exile drew other force sensitives to him/her despite supposedly being separated or exile from it. She wasn't on a power quest in the tradional sense. She was... 'enamored' with the force power the exile wielded while in his/her exiled state, neither Jedi or Sith. Which is why she seems more pleased when you don't take action to either good or bad extremes in the game. Once you lean toward the light or dark then you become just another 'fallen Jedi' or 'redeemed Sith' ...like all the rest. You can really see this regarding the Jedi. If you kill the Jedi she is displeased. If you don't then she kills them anyways. It's not that she cares whether the Jedi live or die... she is only fixated on your actions and what they say about you. She knows she's an evil Sith, she's only interested in knowing where your power to let go of the force comes from and any suggestion you make by your actions or speech that your power comes from being Jedi or Sith, only lowers your value in her eyes.

 

Ultimately there is no way to win favor of Kreia simply because a) she 'cares' & protects you only in the same way a scientist regards a lab rat and b) you eventually have to take action in the game that displeases her one way or the other to some degree.

Edited October 30, 2005 by DarthDakk

[Raphael]

I don't think she was evil, only a sexualy frustated old women who didn't get any for a long time which made her do things seen as evil

Edited October 30, 2005 by Raphael

[Akhan225]

I don't think she was evil, only a sexualy frustated old women who didn't get any for a long time which made her do things seen as evil

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nah, she had Sion and Nihilus to keep her company at the acadamy :D "

[foxdez]

thats was one of the best interpretations of krieas align. i've come across :D

 

nice job Darth Dakk

[Grant Dempsey]

Ultimately there is no way to win favor of Kreia simply because a) she 'cares' & protects you only in the same way a scientist regards a lab rat

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think I would agree with this. Kreia was a bitter and tragic individual, but her affection and admiration for the Exile ultimately seemed geniune to me and an important element of her character, and certainly deeper than one based on nothing but "scientific observation".

 

In any case, I think people also tend to oversimplify the events of Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords when they go to analyze Kreia's character. In the case of, say, the deaths of the Jedi Masters, you can't just mention the final outcome and Kreia's general response (or level of participation); you have to examine her specific dialogue and consider the sequence of events and how they played out.

 

Along the Dark Side path through the game, when it came time to "meet the reunited Jedi Masters" on Dantooine and only Kreia was there, she spoke of having sought to achieve her victory over them through words and truth, through proving that she (her teachings and her philosophies) was right and they were wrong, by presenting them with the Exile and what he represented about the Force and its limitations. She desired a more profound victory than one achieved through needless death or destruction, and, on Dantooine, she scolded the Exile for their deaths because he had slaughtered them right off the bat, and only for the sake of revenge, rather than "beating" them with knowledge and wisdom. She felt the Exile's triumph -- of vengeance and bloodthirst -- against them was meaningless and empty by comparison. On a more personal level, the idea of overcoming the surviving members of the Jedi Council through proving herself to be right was probably important to her, and the victory the Exile achieved through death and destruction robbed her of even the attempt at seeing it through.

 

Some people might now be thinking, "Well, that's all fine and dandy, Grant, but she did kill them, along the Light Side path through the game." First, though, look at how the scene on Dantooine, with the reunited Jedi Masters alive and well there, actually played out. Kreia did not interfere with the Exile's confrontation with them until they threatened, insisted on, and ultimately outright started to, severe his connection to the Force all over again. As far as Kreia was concerned, they had proven their stubborn ignorance and, through their insistence on taking action to neutralize the Exile without understanding the truth of the situation, they had become dangerous. They were not only about to cast aside the only individual apparently capable of bringing down the destructive and shadowy threat posed by Darth Nihilus, but about to "destroy" what was most precious to her (the Exile) for what she felt his existence and condition represented about the truth of life, the Force, and the human spirit. The more profound victory -- of truth and understanding -- that she sought could not be achieved, because the Jedi Masters refused to recognize what she felt the Exile represented, and then her hand was forced to stop them. Plus, the Jedi Masters' decision and stubborn mentality clearly angered Kreia, which was why she chose to kill them by removing them from the Force ("See the universe! See it through the eyes of the Exile!"), making them "see" what she wanted them to...sort of.

 

Anyway, it's not really as simple as saying, "Well, Kreia completely contradicted herself, because, along this path, she killed the Jedi Masters herself, but, along that path, she scolded the Exile for killing them." There was more to the situation, and more of a difference between the Exile's motives for killing the Jedi Masters and Kreia's, than that.

 

EDIT: Also, there is, of course, something to be said for the suggestion that Kreia's judgments of the Exile were made in comparison not just to herself, but to her expectations of him and her hopes of molding him into the great individual she knew he could become. She didn't want him to become an exact duplicate of herself anyway; she wanted him to become more than she was.

Edited November 6, 2005 by Grant Dempsey

[kalimeeri]

Kreia was a bitter and tragic individual, but her affection and admiration for the Exile ultimately seemed geniune to me and an important element of her character, and certainly deeper than one based on nothing but "scientific observation".

 

She didn't want him to become an exact duplicate of herself anyway; she wanted him to become more than she was.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Great post ^

 

Kreia recognized that her major failing was that she was not a leader and couldn't motivate or persuade others. Exile could. She did a lot of manipulating, yet she never once tried to use him as a megaphone or a marionette for her own ideology. Instead, she encouraged him to make his own choices, laying out opposing viewpoints and scenarios, maybe hoping and trusting that he would see the truth she did, independent of coercion or persuasion. I think she saw Exile as vindicaton for her life's work--first, that he would ultimately choose her path; and second, that he would get the word out to others in a way that she could not. But in the end, that really didn't matter as much as Exile's becoming a whole, functioning person again. It was probably the most selfless thing she'd ever done; and I can't think of a better definition of a loving parent.

[Styur Voln]

I think she's evil, but for the same reason i think Revan is evil (even if you redeem him/her)-she's a Sith. No Sith can be light, or neutral. She was powered by the force (i think), and she wanted to kill it-ridiculous.

[Janmanden]

Concepts of good and evil doesn't really apply to Jedi or Sith, imo. They are sort of beyond those vulgar terms. Lots of the Jedi seems rather evil in their fanatically narrowminded unforgiving cold-blooded way, while some of the Sith just seems like good sports. Maybe Kreia is evil, but she's also manipulative, righteous and good, but not in the gullible style that are so common among LS players. The color gray is suitable for her. Jolee was gray too.

[darth jonarn]

I grudgingly said evil. I'm under the impression that Kreia is a manipulative b*tch who was able to hide her evil well (even from Visas' force sight) and help the exile reconnect with the force to serve under her command.

[Janmanden]

I grudgingly said evil. I'm under the impression that Kreia is a manipulative b*tch who was able to hide her evil well (even from Visas' force sight) and help the exile reconnect with the force to serve under her command.

 

It reminds me actually a bit about the 3 TNO's you meet in the Fortress of Regrets in Planescape: Torment. Especially the treachery and manipulation of The Neutral character...how he rebuilds and enslaves Dakkon, how he tricks Deionarra...it's the kind of cold-blooded reasoning that is also characteristic of Kreia: There is always a price to maintain the balance.

[Darkside]

Why is this thread still alive?!

 

BTW she was neutral.

[Dark Moth]

Augh! It begins again!

 

Evil, by the way.

[DAWUSS]

Kreia's in between neutral and evil