Was Kreia Evil?

[Dark Moth]

Hey there! I'm new to these forums, so be nice and don't let my avatar creep you out. I thought "Why not start out with a poll?" So here it is:

Like many things in KOTOR II Kreia was pretty ambiguous. So in your opinion, was she neutral, evil, or good? Pretty straightforward, I think.

 

For me, I would have to say she was evil, and here's why:

Kreia, if you think about it, never really had a good motivation for anything she did. Practically all her actions were driven out of some personal ambition, and she would go to any length to succeed. For instance, she hated the force, so she would try to destroy it, regardless of how many lives would die or that the galaxy would be thrown into turmoil. (don't forget, the force affects more than force-sensitives.) She frowned on many lightside acts, such as helping out people in need. Come on, what if Jesus had set "You can't help the poor?" Sheesh. Not to mention the fact that she contradicts herself several times. <_<

 

Most of the dialogue to gain influence with her was darkside. Probably the only lightside option to gain influence was on Korriban near the tombs. While she frowned upon killing random people, the real reason behind that was that it didn't benefit the character, not because she cared about the lives. In addition, she told you to think of your party members as dispensable. She had no value for their lives.

 

Don't forget, evil is more than killing people. Manipulation, hatred, lies, and betrayel are all evil, and Kreia did all of this. While she trained your character, her real motivation was to get revenge on those who betrayed her (the Jedi and the Sith), and, of course, to destroy the force. But really, it was her own fault she was betrayed by both sides. Kreia used your character to further her own selfish ends. My vote would definitely be evil.

 

So, there's my opinion. Feel free to respond!

[SteveThaiBinh]

Yes, she was evil, for all the reasons you said.

 

One of the frustrating things in the game is that you have to keep her with you, even if the Exile is strongly Light Side. While it's understandable that you need to keep her safe because of the force bond between you, I wanted to lock her up in Ebon Hawk (where HK or Mira usually stand), preferably after sound-proofing her cell.

[Calax]

welcome to the boards. You seem to forget that she also would frown upon extreme actions of Darkness. Like when you kill a begger she bitches at you about using your power wantonly. She's just a wierd Char. Ultimatly she wanted the death of the force yes but what she didn't understand is that you can't kill somthing that's in everything. Also she taught the lessons of the force that most jedi would hesitate from in this era. The lesson is that not all emotions must be suppressed. they can reign free and go through things. Kinda like Vergre from NJO.

[Dark Moth]

Yes, she was evil, for all the reasons you said.

 

One of the frustrating things in the game is that you have to keep her with you, even if the Exile is strongly Light Side.  While it's understandable that you need to keep her safe because of the force bond between you, I wanted to lock her up in Ebon Hawk (where HK or Mira usually stand), preferably after sound-proofing her cell.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Too bad you couldn't do that.

[kalimeeri]

While she trained your character, her real motivation was to get revenge on those who betrayed her (the Jedi and the Sith), and, of course, to destroy the force. 

 

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Was it?

'Destroying' the force itself would destroy all life. She merely wanted people (Sith and Jedi) to have free will, instead of being pawns to the Force's power. Wars were fought and people/planets died as part of its 'balancing act.' Exile didn't need the Force to survive--that was her ideal for everyone.

She didn't set out to kill the Jedi Masters; she just wanted them to see that her gray philosophy had been right all along. They could have helped preserve the galaxy, but they refused to listen again. She's not only tired of messing around with them, but they threatened Exile.

No, not evil. Desperate maybe, and out of time. A 'seer' and a very sad hero, who used whichever alignment worked best to achieve her goal. She contrived situations to 'train' Exile to make up his own mind, instead of relying on notions of 'light' and 'dark'.

[Calax]

horray sombody agrees with me.

[SteveThaiBinh]

She merely wanted people (Sith and Jedi) to have free will, instead of being pawns to the Force's power.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Apart from all the ones she killed, or got killed through her manipulations.

 

I can accept your interpretation of Kreia's motives, but it's very much 'The ends justify the means'. I don't agree - I think that if your path to success is stained with blood then the success itself becomes tainted, and nothing good can come of it, however noble your original intentions were.

[jodo kast 5]

honestly i think she's neutral, she said she doesn't serve the Jedi nor does she serve the Sith, so she's pretty much grey i believe

[Weaponmaster303]

I agree with kalimari good points.Take the lootra quest for example it has a lightside influence gain for her along with other things.She just wants the jedi to see its not all just light or dark yet they were too stubborn to listen.

[Petay]

Simply put--neutral.

 

She berates you for being good and helping strangers, yet she berates you the same when you hurt or kill someone for no reason , therefore shes somewhere in the middle.

[Darth_Kurdt]

Either that, or shes a hypocritical old battleaxe

[SteveThaiBinh]

Simply put--neutral.

 

She berates you for being good and helping strangers, yet she berates you the same when you hurt or kill someone for no reason   , therefore shes somewhere in the middle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, she berates you when you kill someone for no reason. But she's fine if you murder someone to serve your own purposes.

 

Let's take a step back from Star Wars and think about the real world and our real lives. Killing another person to further our own interests is evil - not neutral!

[Weaponmaster303]

Im leaning on neutral now just because i hate being manipulated when in the end she did it all just to help out k1 character revan.

[Jedi Master D Murda]

As I have said before, Kreia was neutral. She wiped out the last of the Jedi from Revan's era and before and the Sith. She was setting up the Exile to lead a new force, good or evil to go help out Revan.

[Bytor]

If you vote "good" then you are evil yourself

[Calax]

then it's agreed she wasn't good.

[jodo kast 5]

Simply put--neutral.

 

She berates you for being good and helping strangers, yet she berates you the same when you hurt or kill someone for no reason   , therefore shes somewhere in the middle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, she berates you when you kill someone for no reason. But she's fine if you murder someone to serve your own purposes.

 

Let's take a step back from Star Wars and think about the real world and our real lives. Killing another person to further our own interests is evil - not neutral!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

guess you right man................ i feel ilke one of the guys from"Twelve Angry Men"

[Dark Moth]

 

She merely wanted people (Sith and Jedi) to have free will, instead of being pawns to the Force's power. Wars were fought and people/planets died as part of its 'balancing act.' Exile didn't need the Force to survive--that was her ideal for everyone.

She didn't set out to kill the Jedi Masters; she just wanted them to see that her gray philosophy had been right all along. They could have helped preserve the galaxy, but they refused to listen again. She's not only tired of messing around with them, but they threatened Exile.

No, not evil. Desperate maybe, and out of time. A 'seer' and a very sad hero, who used whichever alignment worked best to achieve her goal. She contrived situations to 'train' Exile to make up his own mind, instead of relying on notions of 'light' and 'dark'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The force does not control you outright. It can influence, but not control. Destiny does not mean your future is written (Jolee Bindo said that himself). But to destory countless lives because of it is evil, regardless.

Besides, being gray does not make you wise or powerful. Just look at Yoda. He was very lightside, yet was very wise and one of the most powerful Jedi to ever exist. Darth Sidious was very evil and one of the most powerful Sith Lords of all time. I also would not call her a hero. She never really helped anyone except to further her own goals. Don't forget, she wanted to destroy the force mostly because she hated it. She was also hypocritical in the sense that she felt humans were pawns of the force, yet treated everyone around her as pawns.

Oh, and by the way, just because you are not a Jedi or Sith does not make you grey. Light/Darkside is a description of YOU as a person, not who you follow.

Nope. She was definitely EVIL.

[Darkside]

Before Metadigital arrives, I'll go ahead and agree with what I know he'll say. Kreia is the One True Prophet. True, the Force can only influence you and not control you, but if you don't know it's influencing you then how can you hope to write your own future instead of the destiny the Force has laid out for you? Kriea only wanted people to have free will outside of the Force's power, but in the end she was becoming desperate. From her POV she could see no other choice than to stop the Force once and for all. A flawed plan I'll agree, but as I said, she was desperate.

 

However, I don't think stopping the Force is her only goal. She was also concerned with helping Revan defeat the True Sith and returning peace and balance to the galaxy. To defeat an evil that great, you have to fight fire with fire by using the Sith's own deception, betrayal, and dark powers against them. The Jedi interpreted this as Kriea and Revan's "fall" to the darkside, but as Kreia said, they never fell. They both became Sith out of neccesity. Sometimes the only way to stop a great evil is with a greater "evil".

 

This is also why I say Revan will be a Sith Lord again in Kotor 3 (should there ever be one). Light or dark, Revan won't be able to defeat the Sith by running in swinging their lightsaber; one person can't fight an army and Revan had no way of knowing if others would follow him/her. Revan's only chance is to tactfully collapse the Sith from the inside. A near impossible plan, but Revan is known for his/her brilliance.

[SteveThaiBinh]

Before Metadigital arrives, I'll go ahead and agree with what I know he'll say. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Metagroupie! :D

To defeat an evil that great, you have to fight fire with fire by using the Sith's own deception, betrayal, and dark powers against them. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I honestly cannot see how Revan's actions made the galaxy - Republic and Sith - better able to resist an external threat. He drove the two factions into all-out war, leaving both devastated with much of their military gone and the Republic's economy in ruins. If anything, Revan's actions look more like those of an agent of the True Sith/external threat, fomenting chaos before the invasion begins. Same goes for Kreia.

Sometimes the only way to stop a great evil is with a greater "evil".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then better to accept the lesser evil: the lesser evil is the lesser of two evils!

[Darkside]

Before Metadigital arrives, I'll go ahead and agree with what I know he'll say. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Metagroupie! :D

 

Lol, hardly. I just know he says that every time the name "Kreia" pops up, no matter the topic. "

To defeat an evil that great, you have to fight fire with fire by using the Sith's own deception, betrayal, and dark powers against them. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I honestly cannot see how Revan's actions made the galaxy - Republic and Sith - better able to resist an external threat. He drove the two factions into all-out war, leaving both devastated with much of their military gone and the Republic's economy in ruins. If anything, Revan's actions look more like those of an agent of the True Sith/external threat, fomenting chaos before the invasion begins. Same goes for Kreia.

 

Revan didn't intend to let the two go to all out war like that; they wanted to take control quickly so they could begin building the Republic's defenses (Kreia and Goto both note that Revan avoided destroying key military planets). But Malak and Bastila sort of screwed up the plan. By the time Revan remembered what was going on, I doubt he/she had the time or resources to start another galactic domination campaign (sp?), what with the Star Forge gone and all, so they had to go witha half-baked plan B. Rev's plan would have worked too, if hadn't been for those meddling Jedi!

 

Edit: But you got me on that last part. I know when to admit defeat, it just doesn't happen often.

Edited June 23, 2005 by Darkside

[SteveThaiBinh]

Revan didn't intend to let the two go to all out war like that; they wanted to take control quickly so they could begin building the Republic's defenses (Kreia and Goto both note that Revan avoided destroying key military planets).  But Malak and Bastila sort of screwed up the plan.  By the time Revan remembered what was going on, I doubt he/she had the time or resources to start another galactic domination campaign (sp?), what with the Star Forge gone and all, so they had to go witha half-baked plan B.  Rev's plan would have worked too, if hadn't been for those meddling Jedi!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmmm, maybe. I can't disprove what you say. Perhaps if Kotor 3 is made and we find out what exactly this 'True Sith' threat is, then we can judge whether this was the only way to save the Galaxy, or just a bloody power trip.

[GhostofAnakin]

I chose neutral, but I don't really think that's the correct word for what she was. I don't believe she was truly evil (DS) because she didn't really hunger for power. She even said to the Exile that if the Exile can defeat her she'd feel vindicated. No "true" Sith or evil being would feel vindicated if they were defeated by someone they trained.

 

I think a lot of her motives were born from what happened to her. Revenge played a big part, as did her belief that the Force was too controlling over peoples' lives. So while she did have some evil intentions, I don't think she was evil in the sense that everything she did was for evil purposes (as compared, for instance, to Darth Malak, who just wanted to rule the galaxy).

[QeL_Droma]

she is evil. she trains you to kill the sith lords and then tries to kill you. And in every light side influence option you can't a any influence about her you can only get influence when you accept her plans about escaping etc.. If someone manipulates you from the start that means she/he is up to something and usually it is not good for you

[GhostofAnakin]

If someone manipulates you from the start that means she/he is up to something and usually it is not good for you

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Really? So then Yoda and Obi-Wan were evil because they manipulated Luke Skywalker. They trained him to defeat the Sith (Emperor and Vader), but kept things from him until they felt the time was right, or until unforeseen events brought them to light ("why didn't you tell me Vader was my father?!?").