Kotor 3: Ideas and Suggestions

[KurtDunniehue]

I really think some cosmetic changes of slight degree could do alot for the game.

 

Whatever you do for plot, characters, ect is up to you guys, IMO, but there's alot you just arn't really exploiting for the Animations and Appearnce of the characters.

 

It would be incredibly facinating to see the feats selected for a character would affect his movement. One obvious example would be showing a character being unable to dual-wield with any competancy without the Dual-Wield Feats.

 

Also, I'm thinking that it should get involved into the point that one combination of feats make a Power Attack look entirely different from another selection.

 

Such as when you start to take the feat 'dueling,' I think the swordplay should resemble something a little more simplisitic, like Fencing. And that the one handed blaster combat should look more and more like well aimed pot-shots (using two hands to aim).

 

And with something like Weapon Finesse, moves should be more fluid, perhaps mixing in Tai-Chi motions with all the movements.

 

Also I'm thinking there should be a wider configuration of Lightsaber hilts. Having a long hilt for a one bladed Lightsaber, for instance, would give you a 'Two Handed' bonus that one might find from D&D and NWN. A fencing hilt would help with one handed fighting styles, Dual Bladed would assist with dualwielded, ect.

 

Also it'd be nice to try out some other races for the Main Protagonist. In the last two KoToRs, the Protagonist didn't HAVE to be human. Being able to choose Twilik or some other tall, Humanoid (and largely hairless) races might be a little refreshing.

 

-----

 

Edit: Well actually I was hit with a flash of inspiration, and thought I'd share this plot idea with all yous. Here. Enjoy.

-----

 

The plot could center on this young man/woman, who lives in a small villiage on an out of the way generic backwater world. This would be our protagonist.

 

This Protagonist has been seeing, since early childhood, this strange hermit that lives in seclusion outside of her nearby villiage. This Hermit is a Sith, and has maimed and killed people who have bothered him. But for some reason, this child didn't bother him so much, and for some reason he trained this kid in the way of the force.

 

Strength in yourself. Let people work out their own problems. You help people, you weaken them. And with these teachings you are imbued with the hatred of the Jedi for Sith persecution in the past.

 

What sets the Game in motion, is when a Jedi comes to bring this Sith in for judgement. It ends in a fight, and the Sith Master is slain after an ultimatem. You get his lightsaber and promis to hunt down this Jedi and avenge him.

 

Game could go onto why the Sith went into hiding, about why the Jedi wanted him, and about ties to the True Sith who are about to make their bloody reentry into the universe. You can choose to join this new threat against the universe, decide that these True Sith follow a less tame, insane darker path to power, or decide that the Jedi have things right and join them ultimately.

[PhantomJedi]

I have breifly glanced over what has been posted on the last few pages and how amazing it is we keep repeating the same things. Also someone should post a summary of what has been said every now and then for those of us who are either to lazy to read it all or don't want to do permenant damage to our eyes do to the excessive amount of reading needed to catch up with what as been said and who has been igniting fires. :ph34r:

[Snipergoat UK]

Do not have Revan or the Exile as playable characters please !!!

 

Running into them or hearing what happened to them would be good, but i dont want to play as either of them . I already know their characters and personallities etc..

 

I want a completely different party this time .. with the exception of maybe T3 - M4 . because there always has to be a droid so it might as well be him

[hearts inferno]

Do not have Revan or the Exile as playable characters please !!!

 

Running into them or hearing what happened to them would be good, but i dont want to play as either of them . I already know their characters and personallities etc..

 

I want a completely different party this time .. with the exception of maybe T3 - M4 . because there always has to be a droid so it might as well be him

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'd like to see either the Exile or Revan as part of your party later on in the game but have a new Character.

I would also like to see more indepth story lines to do with your party members and your character.

[Darth Abomination]

I think you'll either be Exile or a new guy(girl), simply because Revan is supposed to be this incredible powerhouse of the force. We can all agree that having a guy right from the start that is next to impossible to beat would sort of suck. I mean even an amazing story, good graphics and lots of cut scenes wouldn't make up for having a game that my two year old niece could beat.

 

But thats just one mans opinion

 

AbOmInAtIoN

[Redd.Dragon]

I think you'll either be Exile or a new guy(girl), simply because Revan is supposed to be this incredible powerhouse of the force. We can all agree that having a guy right from the start that is next to impossible to beat would sort of suck. I mean even an amazing story, good graphics and lots of cut scenes wouldn't make up for having a game that my two year old niece could beat.

 

But thats just one mans opinion

 

AbOmInAtIoN

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

At the end of KOTOR2 Kriea says the Exile is greater then any she has ever trained. Meaning he is more powerful then Revan. If you ask me the Exile is the most powerful Jedi in the Old Republic time. No other man has had a connection to the force like he has; no other man could survive the connection after Malachor V.

 

I wouldn

[metadigital]

We expect more, yes, but we get less. "... It's all been done."? Garbage! We are getting slop that has been done so much that it is chich

[Laozi]

Edit:  Well actually I was hit with a flash of inspiration, and thought I'd share this plot idea with all yous.  Here.  Enjoy.

-----

 

The plot could center on this young man/woman, who lives in a small villiage on an out of the way generic backwater world. This would be our protagonist.

 

This Protagonist has been seeing, since early childhood, this strange hermit that lives in seclusion outside of her nearby villiage. This Hermit is a Sith, and has maimed and killed people who have bothered him. But for some reason, this child didn't bother him so much, and for some reason he trained this kid in the way of the force.

 

Strength in yourself. Let people work out their own problems. You help people, you weaken them. And with these teachings you are imbued with the hatred of the Jedi for Sith persecution in the past.

 

What sets the Game in motion, is when a Jedi comes to bring this Sith in for judgement. It ends in a fight, and the Sith Master is slain after an ultimatem. You get his lightsaber and promis to hunt down this Jedi and avenge him.

 

Game could go onto why the Sith went into hiding, about why the Jedi wanted him, and about ties to the True Sith who are about to make their bloody reentry into the universe. You can choose to join this new threat against the universe, decide that these True Sith follow a less tame, insane darker path to power, or decide that the Jedi have things right and join them ultimately.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Where as I'm not all that fond of your idea, I atleast have to give you some credit, its alot better then any of the others I've heard thus far.

[Calax]

or you could be a sith trooper who got Transformed! LOOK OUT IT'S VOLTRON!!!

[Calax]

well you could choose your original side, ie have two different beginning points, one on some sith planet and one on corecant, they mirror eachother but the "correct" choices (in the view of the teacher) is the opposite. Essencially you start at a pole and either stay or move to neutral by the time you leave.

[Darth Sprawl]

If you didn't already know, FYI ,whoever purchased www.kotor3.com is apparently just looking for a payday.

 

Follow the link, and you will see there is an email contact for bidders.

 

<_<

 

kotor3

[Laozi]

After a suggestion from my housemate I've decided to give this a "whack". Ofcourse right off the bat I'm probaly going to alienate the Revan fanbois with my ideas, and probaly a few people who liked the leveling system, but everyone needs to become a glutton for punishment at sometime, it what keeps the forum going.

 

You start out as usual you choose a gender and face, but you do not choose any attributes or abilities and such. It always pained me that strength would be a factor in weilding a weightless weapon as a character that was aided by the force. As for things like intelligence, you'll see later that its more dependent on the 'player', and not the 'character'.

Anyways, so you start out on the Jedi Academy(sorry to those who wanted to start off imediately as Sith) on Coruscant, which of course has been "reopened" since TSL. The first thing you experince is a class sort of thing taught by one of the Jedi Knights at the Academy. Through this you answer a series of questions that determine the path of both Revan and the Exile and their respective genders. This is somewhat key to with characters you will encounter throughout the game. My idea would be to have many characters from both games to be in this game. For instance a LS Revan would allow for Mission to be a sort of an elite republic special op and such, and a LS Exile would allow for the Handmaiden to be the historian of the Academy and one of the instructors.

After this you would recieve the rank of Padawan. You would be given certain force powers (force push, force speed, healing) and of course you have constructed your own lightsaber. From there you will have the option of talking to several of the instructors at the academy. This is where you would aquire most of the abilities associated with "leveling up". Each instructor would give you the option of teaching you different techniques with in the force. I would say you'd probaly get the option of choosing 1 of 3 from each instructor, after which one that you didn't choose wouldn't be available later, making the decisions pretty important, but certain "base level" powers would always be available. Also I guess it would be important to note this: Where as I'm not sure that dual-wielding would be available this earily in the game, when it does become available there would be a big difference with this game. Befor the whole idea seemd to be the only better then being a Jedi with a lightsaber is being a Jedi with two. In this game you would be warned that you can indeed have two lightsaber or a saberstaff, but the draback would be that enemies will have a much easier time making "saves" against your force powers, and those powers that aid you will have a "watered down" effect because of the level of concentration required limits your force ability. I think this is entirely fair and needs to be in K3 reguardless.

Anywho, the last Jedi Knight that you are able to learn from then becomes your "master" and teaches you a great deal. From there lo' and behold there is something that requires you 'master' to investigate nad as their padawan you are coming too. You go somewhere and encouter some baddies, and at the very end you get separated from your 'master' and encouter dum diddy dum dum.......a Sith. He senses the force with in you and goes into one of those typical sith speeches about power and rightful place and crap, and just as they finish your master shows up. Now you have the option of staying with the "light" and attacking the sith with you master, or siding with the sith and going for a little double team extreme on your master.

From there you either go with the sith and at the end of each "mission" you learn another new thing about being evil and having a lightsaber, go with your master and learning more about Jediing. Also characters throughout the game will be able to teach you other things, sort of like in TSL, but with no actual Leveling. From there the plot could go anywhere, go and give Revan a little kiss on the ass if thats what the games about, or if whomever makes it doesn't want the game to such balls could forget about the uberlame "True Sith" thing.

 

So there you go, feel free to supply the venom

 

 

Oh ya and as for repairing droids and hacking computer, you'd still be able to do that, but it would be more like the option of answering questions like when you could save the "hunter" on Tatoonie

 

And lastly if you want to say something about what I have written, please don't repost the whole thing again

[metadigital]

I like what Rick Burton did in his Paladin modules for NwN, specifically the first module Twilight, where the initiate is inducted into the Paladin order after passing a few tests, which double as a tutorial to wield the various different weapons (there are three different weapons, two race-specific and a general one), which need to be swapped around as a normal part of the combat routine (to best attack the different "races").

 

After the pc is inducted, the main adventure begins. The induction ceremony grants the aura bonus of the Paladin (fear, divine damage and divine vampiric parasitic restoration). Also the pc is gifted a new weapon and a pretty shield.

 

This is relevant because the Jedi are basically paladins, with the Sith being Blackguards.

 

I thought it was one of the better beginnings I have had to endure, as well as being narrationally consistent.

[Calax]

i like Lao's idea, it would provide a much more believable platform to inform the pc of what happened in the past than a guy in a force tube... anyway, this reminds me of Jedi academy in the most horrible way. I would think that for a while you would be following your master and either suberting him in the worst way(evil) or helping him by doing some dirty work in back allie's type of thing, or just acting as a PI (ls)

[Jediphile]

1. I think you either don't remember or are being flippant. Games like Grim Fantango, for example, which has more plot ingenuity in the first chapter than is seen in the all of the Star Wars films and games put together, proves this. Maybe not the games you played ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I have actually played and finished Grim Fandango, and it never struck me as all that interesting. Sure, it was different and, in its own way, rather original, but I don't think the plot was that interesting or compelling. The same could be said for the Monkey Island games, but at least they were a lot more fun. So no, it does not prove your point. If anything it only underscores the notion that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You seem to deny that, however, and suggest that the quality of Grim Fandango is a fact, and the only way people might disagree with that fact is if they haven't played it. This idea contradicts your point that quality sells - if Grim Fandango is so undeniably brilliant, then - by your logic - it should have been both a cash cow and a classic. Okay, so do people remember it or Monkey Island better? And which of them sold more? It speaks volumes that Monkey Island spawned three sequels (and may spawn more - who knows?), while Grim Fandango spawned none and is largely forgotten. In fact, I'm quite certain most people here will think "Grim what?"

 

2. No, you missed mine.

 

Animation, despite your protestations, is not an essential: especially this relentless drive for more photorealistic graphics. Let's take a filmographic example: look at the two films The Matrix and the Matrix Reloaded. The second film had much better special effects; it was heralded as the first film where "you will believe a man can fly". But the plot and script was inferior to the original, and consequently the original film, though not as spectacular in graphics and general visual production, was the superior film.

 

Plot is essential, or we will end up with just a flashy coat of paint and no engine in the car, which won't drive us to where we want to go.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This is another example of how beauty is in the eye of the beholder, since I quite honestly thought that Matrix Reloaded was by far the best movie in the trilogy. Yes, Revolutions failed to finish the story properly, and since Reloaded builded toward it, that hurt it as well, but on its own Reloaded is brilliant IMO - I like it far better than the original movie, which was fairly simple in ints setup, whereas by the end of Reloaded, you really were wondering what was going on. Damn shame about Revolutions, which really just spend most of its time trying to explain away the clues given to us in Reloaded. But I digress...

 

To be short, yes, plot is essential. I would much rather play a game with simplistic graphics than one with huge plot holes. I've said before on this board that I'd place solid plot over a new graphics engine for KotOR3 any time, and I stand by that.

 

The problem is, however, that most people don't think the way I do. When they look at a computer game, they look at the surface, and that's graphics and sound, and particularly the former. It's difficult to blame them, though, since what others standard do they have by which to judge the game? After all, if the plot sucks, who's going to tell them? The company certainly won't! You could say that reviewers would, but KotOR2 has made that problem worse, because the plot falls apart completely about 70% into the game, and yet it has received rave reviews by most magazines and their ilk. That leaves gamers to judge the book only by its cover (or the computer game by its shiny graphics, as the case may be...). Besides, who can tell if players are going to enjoy the plot? It's not ideal by any means, no, but it is true, sadly...

 

3. I'm not entirely sure what your point is with this statement.

 

I am certainly in full agreement with you when you point out that fanboys -- for whatever franchise -- will skew the returns on any artistic investment. This is, as you say, sad but undeniable. I would also say that I am equally pessimistic about the fate of any sequels in Star Wars, in general, and the KotOR franchise, in particular.

 

What I do not understand is what your position is; you are either:

- resigned to the "no plot" fate, and so trying to boost the graphics package, or

- don't believe plot is as important as graphics in a game.

 

You seem to be arguing the latter, and yet here you revert to the former.

 

I would hope that I have displayed enough proof to dissuade you that the latter is the case; as to the former: I am not going to capitulate to any extortion, I will play no game rather than a bad one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

My point is that although we both seem to not have any particular love for the various EA sports games and their ilk, they're still being produced by the dozens, and they wouldn't be if they didn't also sell. I've seen very few games that had genuine interesting plots.

 

Most CRPGs are really nothing more glorified action adventures (like LAs Monkey Island games), dungeon crawling hack and slash games (like the Diablo games) or a cross between them (like the Baldur's Gate or NWN games). They all have in common that the plots are completely linear and have little or no room for variation. Grim Fandango falls into this category too, since there is only one way to solve it. KotOR does as well, of course, though it at least allows a good or evil ending. The plot remains completely linear and unalterable, though, because that's the only way you can script a game with cutscenes and the like.

 

There really have been no true deviation from that formula since the Fallout games (1 and 2, not Tactics). Games like the Gothic series offers more variety than most, but are still fairly linear and for the same reasons. The Summoner was far more linear, but at least it had excellent plot, though it rehashed the same areas far too often.

 

I miss games like the original Fallout games, but you cannot go back to them without giving up on spoken dialogue and cutscenes, and who can imagine plot-based games without those now? Don't get me wrong, I stil play and enjoy Fallout 2 on occasion (one of the best CRPGs ever), but it is and remains undeniably aged now. To go back to that formula is to allow all information to be text only, and I don't think anyone is going to try it. Fallout 3 has been stop and go, but even if it does come out, it will face the same problem.

 

Hope that gives you some insight into where I'm coming from.

 

 

4. I have two points here:

Firstly, the market is a fickle thing. Although it seems that publishers can be "smarter" than the herd, in the long run the standard deviation bumps will revert to a bell curve. What I mean is, just because some publishers are reaping short term profits from their goodwill, doesn't mean it will last. Without investing in future goodwill and generally re-investing some of the earned capital, then the company is on its way to doom. It is axiomatic in business that customers cost more to get than to keep, the games industry is no different.

 

Secondly, just because there exists now a market for brainless FPS action games, for example, doesn't mean that this is a long-term trend. These bubble-gum games will all be very unappealing to the gamer community as it ages (and it is). Just like pop music has a set market (predominantly teenagers) so to the plot-challenged froth-and-bubble will appeal to a set and stagnant market segment (predominantly those who haven't encountered them many times before). The real growth market segments will involve innovation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If goodwill was rewarded in the gaming world, then things would like very different than they do. Just look at the RPG scene (not the computer games, I mean the old style tabletop RPG) - these days everything adheres to the d20 system that WOTC produces. But that certainly doesn't happen because d20 is the best system. In fact, there have been tons of better systems, only they all go under because they don't have licenses to breathe life into the them (like Star Wars or D&D). Some are just so clever that they won't die, and so the big companies sue them to death like TSR used to do to its competitors in the 80s and 90s. In fact, having played loads of RPG systems, I'd say that d20 is about one of the worst that has been published in the last decade, yet it still survives on the basis of licenses like Star Wars. Most of the better systems go under, though GURPS has managed to stay afloat. That didn't happen because it was best, though, but because it managed to build a loyal fanbase.

 

Now, we could conclude from all this that most gamers are stupid since they don't seem to support good games, but it's probably closer to the truth to say that not everybody shares the priority of content and execution over polish and slickness. Long and deep CRPGs are my cup of tea, but I must accept that most people would much rather play Gran Turismo 53, Quake 21, EA Sports Synchronized Swimming 2113 or Worms 789 than KotOR3 or Fallout 4. I'm in the minority, and I must accept that - anything else is unrealistic. Most people think of computer games as quick and forgettable entertainment, not as compelling and deep stories that requires hours upon hours of dedicated playing time to achieve results. Since they are in the majority, the market will accomodate them first. There are enough of us left to keep the deep CRPGs alive, but we must live with what we get - beggers can't be choosers. If KotOR2 taught us anything, then that was it - the game was unfinished, but we still played it because we had little other choice...

 

5. I cannot see where you think I am "flaming or trolling" with the quote, below, which I include again because I stand by it:

"...Because it is the only thing that is possible." is the worst cop-out I have heard. You are an apologist for the pathetic performance of the games industry. And you are completely and irrevocably wrong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are an apologist for the poor performance of the games industry.

A. You are an apologist because you are one who "argues in defense or justification of" the poor quality the games industry.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There is a difference between being an apologist for the state of things and acknowledging the state of things. The market will not and cannot support huge CRPGs these days because they're too expensive to produce compared to what returns can be expected from the limited fanbase. That's not an apology, just a sad fact.

 

B. You are completely and irrevocably wrong. Quality does sell. Even using your own arguments, better graphics sells more games; how much better will a game sell that has better graphics and plot. And I would argue, although it seems to be falling on deaf ears, that a game with inferior graphics but a superior plot will sell more than a plotless fragfest.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And that's why games like Far Cry, Half-Life 2, Doom 3 and the EA sports games you mention don't sell... [insert sarcasm here...]

 

But yes, excellent graphics and good plot might sell, but both costs. You cannot have good graphics without good programmers, and you cannot have good plots without good game designers/stortellers. Both cost money to hire, so which will you hire given that gamers tend to judge games based on the graphics (that's the judge-the-book-by-the-cover thing I mentioned above...) ?

 

I may not like that, but that doesn't make it any less true.

 

You, however, apparently refuse to accept this and instead lays the blame for it at my feet because I try to offer a realistic appraisal of the gaming industry today. If you don't like the state of things, then go and hide from reality if you like, but don't kill me just because you don't like hearing my estimate of the situation. Also, don't make grand statements that are clearly flawed, if you're unwilling to have someone tell you exactly that flaw lies. If I shut up that will just prompt someone else to pierce your flawed impression of things. Someone always does. And pointing fingers at someone just because you don't like the message is flaming because it becomes personal. And since you can expect only a response based on anger in return, it is also trolling.

 

For example, as I have posted before, I am curently playing Grim Fandango for the first time. It needs DirectX6 to run, and a video card with 32MB VRAM. It is one of the most enjoyable adventure games I have played; the only complaint I would make at this point is that the controls are annoying, because the player has to use a game controller and the camera changes for each scene, meaning that the relative directions are altered without warning, to accommodate the graphics. The graphics (which are good, and were cutting edge for the time) are actually a hindrance!

 

The only reason that there are games that are all bang-and-whiz and no narrative is because some publishers are selling their hard-earned goodwill and implying that their games have more to them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Lucasarts has been around since, what, the mid 80s, while companies like Black Isle or Interplay are no more...

 

As for games, the X-Wing series was brilliant in both plot and execution, but sadly they are gone now... For Star Trek, the Bridge Commander game was brilliant, easily the best Trek game ever (and there were some awful stinkers in there) with excellent plot, yet it was killed shortly after being released, whereas real-time strategy games made ad nauseam still sell through the roof.

 

Sorry, but that argument just doesn't hold water either way.

 

 

6. Are you telling me that you don't like games with a plot?

 

Seriously, you seem to be arguing that plot is irrelevant as long as the graphics are acceptable (and the definition of acceptable is forever increasing). And you seem to be using the "everyone else likes it" kindergarten argument to justify your position, which I think is very tenuous.

 

I'm curious, what do you prefer: plot or graphics?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I believe I have already answered that question many times over. If you're still wondering, then you clearly don't read my answers very carefully.

[Darth Abomination]

I think you'll either be Exile or a new guy(girl), simply because Revan is supposed to be this incredible powerhouse of the force. We can all agree that having a guy right from the start that is next to impossible to beat would sort of suck. I mean even an amazing story, good graphics and lots of cut scenes wouldn't make up for having a game that my two year old niece could beat.

 

But thats just one mans opinion

 

AbOmInAtIoN

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

At the end of KOTOR2 Kriea says the Exile is greater then any she has ever trained. Meaning he is more powerful then Revan. If you ask me the Exile is the most powerful Jedi in the Old Republic time. No other man has had a connection to the force like he has; no other man could survive the connection after Malachor V.

 

I wouldn’t want to see the Exile or Revan in my party or play as them, though. For the simple fact it would ruin the story. You are correct. Revan is too powerful to be played as. So is the Exile.

 

I would like to see them play a major role in the game Such as, friendly for example The Jedi Console (KOTOR 1) or an enemy Malak (KOTOR 1) That’s just the role, but I would like to see the story of both of them put in the game. While they are not in the party of a playable character the story should be told and not in some cheesy two minute chat with your party member.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

She also mentions how she never really trained Revan

[Jediphile]

After a suggestion from my housemate I've decided to give this a "whack". Ofcourse right off the bat I'm probaly going to alienate the Revan fanbois with my ideas, and probaly a few people who liked the leveling system, but everyone needs to become a glutton for punishment at sometime, it what keeps the forum going.

(snip rest)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I like this, but then it does read a lot like the plot suggestions I have posted here before, though I was far more verbose. Never quite finished describing my idea, but I doubt anyone's interest, and it's very long anyway... Besides, I'm scarcely the only one to post ideas along those lines.

 

Personally I'd love to get rid the god-awful leveling system, but I doubt it will happen, since it comes from WOTC's d20 system in the current RPG version. There might be legal reasons that demand a Star Wars RPG to use it, much as I hate it. I'd much rather have something like the GURPS system where you don't have experience levels, but simply earn skill points that you then use to boost your skills, stats, etc. Much more realistic, and it also gets rid of the annoying Guardian/Counselor has this or that color lightsaber or this or that force power, but that that one... Oh, how I hate that! Besides, hit points and experience levels just don't make any sense as they are in the d20 system, but I fear we're stuck with them

[Weiser_Cain]

My revan seemed more powerful than my exile aside from the exiles special ability and we don't know how well revan could resist that.

[metadigital]

1I have actually played and finished Grim Fandango, and it never struck me as all that interesting. Sure, it was different and, in its own way, rather original, but I don't think the plot was that interesting or compelling. The same could be said for the Monkey Island games, but at least they were a lot more fun. So no, it does not prove your point. If anything it only underscores the notion that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You seem to deny that, however, and suggest that the quality of Grim Fandango is a fact, and the only way people might disagree with that fact is if they haven't played it. This idea contradicts your point that quality sells - if Grim Fandango is so undeniably brilliant, then - by your logic - it should have been both a cash cow and a classic. Okay, so do people remember it or Monkey Island better? And which of them sold more? It speaks volumes that Monkey Island spawned three sequels (and may spawn more - who knows?), while Grim Fandango spawned none and is largely forgotten. In fact, I'm quite certain most people here will think "Grim what?"

 

2This is another example of how beauty is in the eye of the beholder, since I quite honestly thought that Matrix Reloaded was by far the best movie in the trilogy. ...

... To be short, yes, plot is essential. I would much rather play a game with simplistic graphics than one with huge plot holes. I've said before on this board that I'd place solid plot over a new graphics engine for KotOR3 any time, and I stand by that.

 

3The problem is, however, that most people don't think the way I do. When they look at a computer game, they look at the surface, and that's graphics and sound, and particularly the former. It's difficult to blame them, though, since what others standard do they have by which to judge the game? After all, if the plot sucks, who's going to tell them? The company certainly won't! You could say that reviewers would, but KotOR2 has made that problem worse, because the plot falls apart completely about 70% into the game, and yet it has received rave reviews by most magazines and their ilk. That leaves gamers to judge the book only by its cover (or the computer game by its shiny graphics, as the case may be...). Besides, who can tell if players are going to enjoy the plot? It's not ideal by any means, no, but it is true, sadly...

 

4My point is that although we both seem to not have any particular love for the various EA sports games and their ilk, they're still being produced by the dozens, and they wouldn't be if they didn't also sell. I've seen very few games that had genuine interesting plots.

 

Most CRPGs are really nothing more glorified action adventures (like LAs Monkey Island games), dungeon crawling hack and slash games (like the Diablo games) or a cross between them (like the Baldur's Gate or NWN games). They all have in common that the plots are completely linear and have little or no room for variation. Grim Fandango falls into this category too, since there is only one way to solve it. KotOR does as well, of course, though it at least allows a good or evil ending. The plot remains completely linear and unalterable, though, because that's the only way you can script a game with cutscenes and the like.

 

There really have been no true deviation from that formula since the Fallout games (1 and 2, not Tactics). Games like the Gothic series offers more variety than most, but are still fairly linear and for the same reasons. The Summoner was far more linear, but at least it had excellent plot, though it rehashed the same areas far too often.

 

5I miss games like the original Fallout games, but you cannot go back to them without giving up on spoken dialogue and cutscenes, and who can imagine plot-based games without those now? Don't get me wrong, I stil play and enjoy Fallout 2 on occasion (one of the best CRPGs ever), but it is and remains undeniably aged now. To go back to that formula is to allow all information to be text only, and I don't think anyone is going to try it. Fallout 3 has been stop and go, but even if it does come out, it will face the same problem.

 

Hope that gives you some insight into where I'm coming from.

 

6If goodwill was rewarded in the gaming world, then things would like very different than they do. Just look at the RPG scene (not the computer games, I mean the old style tabletop RPG) - these days everything adheres to the d20 system that WOTC produces. But that certainly doesn't happen because d20 is the best system. In fact, there have been tons of better systems, only they all go under because they don't have licenses to breathe life into the them (like Star Wars or D&D). Some are just so clever that they won't die, and so the big companies sue them to death like TSR used to do to its competitors in the 80s and 90s. In fact, having played loads of RPG systems, I'd say that d20 is about one of the worst that has been published in the last decade, yet it still survives on the basis of licenses like Star Wars. Most of the better systems go under, though GURPS has managed to stay afloat. That didn't happen because it was best, though, but because it managed to build a loyal fanbase.

 

Now, we could conclude from all this that most gamers are stupid since they don't seem to support good games, but it's probably closer to the truth to say that not everybody shares the priority of content and execution over polish and slickness. Long and deep CRPGs are my cup of tea, but I must accept that most people would much rather play Gran Turismo 53, Quake 21, EA Sports Synchronized Swimming 2113 or Worms 789 than KotOR3 or Fallout 4. I'm in the minority, and I must accept that - anything else is unrealistic. Most people think of computer games as quick and forgettable entertainment, not as compelling and deep stories that requires hours upon hours of dedicated playing time to achieve results. Since they are in the majority, the market will accomodate them first. There are enough of us left to keep the deep CRPGs alive, but we must live with what we get - beggers can't be choosers. If KotOR2 taught us anything, then that was it - the game was unfinished, but we still played it because we had little other choice...

 

7There is a difference between being an apologist for the state of things and acknowledging the state of things. The market will not and cannot support huge CRPGs these days because they're too expensive to produce compared to what returns can be expected from the limited fanbase. That's not an apology, just a sad fact.

 

B. You are completely and irrevocably wrong. Quality does sell. Even using your own arguments, better graphics sells more games; how much better will a game sell that has better graphics and plot. And I would argue, although it seems to be falling on deaf ears, that a game with inferior graphics but a superior plot will sell more than a plotless fragfest.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And that's why games like Far Cry, Half-Life 2, Doom 3 and the EA sports games you mention don't sell... [insert sarcasm here...]

8

But yes, excellent graphics and good plot might sell, but both costs. You cannot have good graphics without good programmers, and you cannot have good plots without good game designers/stortellers. Both cost money to hire, so which will you hire given that gamers tend to judge games based on the graphics (that's the judge-the-book-by-the-cover thing I mentioned above...) ?

 

I may not like that, but that doesn't make it any less true.

 

9You, however, apparently refuse to accept this and instead lays the blame for it at my feet because I try to offer a realistic appraisal of the gaming industry today. If you don't like the state of things, then go and hide from reality if you like, but don't kill me just because you don't like hearing my estimate of the situation. Also, don't make grand statements that are clearly flawed, if you're unwilling to have someone tell you exactly that flaw lies. If I shut up that will just prompt someone else to pierce your flawed impression of things. Someone always does. And pointing fingers at someone just because you don't like the message is flaming because it becomes personal. And since you can expect only a response based on anger in return, it is also trolling.

 

9Lucasarts has been around since, what, the mid 80s, while companies like Black Isle or Interplay are no more...

 

As for games, the X-Wing series was brilliant in both plot and execution, but sadly they are gone now... For Star Trek, the Bridge Commander game was brilliant, easily the best Trek game ever (and there were some awful stinkers in there) with excellent plot, yet it was killed shortly after being released, whereas real-time strategy games made ad nauseam still sell through the roof.

 

Sorry, but that argument just doesn't hold water either way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. I was just using Grim Fandango as an example as it was close to hand. The Monkey Island series is another example that illustrates the case for games with strong plots and high attention to detail and excellent crafting of the environment. Similar to my original modern example: Psychonauts.

 

For exvery brainless example, I can give a well written one: Max Payne (and a gasp! sequel), Alan Wake is about to be released ... how about historical fiction? Rome: Total War.

 

2. You are guilty of judging a film by its special effects, then. The plot of the sequel was far inferior to the original film; there were numerous concepts that were alluded to in the original that were not even addressed in the sequel; the sequels were more Kung-Fu than philosophy -- the opposite of the original, which revealed a compelling dystopian future vision and a library of different technological fictions to flesh out the narrative.

 

3. That's very patronising: people don't understand that good writing makes for compelling games, they just want to mast ur bate with their gamepad.

 

4. Yep, there is definitely a market segment being served by such games. So what? The cRPG genre might be a (smaller) market niche, but that doesn't mean it doesn't bear servicing. There is a market for yatchs that cost over

[jodo kast 5]

Good for you......., now let's get back on topic.

[Calax]

I really think that people have the right idea in swapping the sides of this thing. i wonder what it looks like from a sith perspective.

[metadigital]

Good for you......., now let's get back on topic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Have you bothered to read the previous six threads of this subject? I have yet to read anything startlingly different in the last three of these threads.

 

Secondly, I was advocating the insistence on quality writing, something I did in the first of these threads, and I have repeated it regularly throughout the series.

 

The last post was dealing with a protracted argument based on the infraction caused by Jediphile suggesting that quality writing was not as important as graphical innovation. As we are dealing with audience contributions for the sequel, I think it is well within the scope of the topic to discuss the relative pros and contras of good writing versus innovative graphics.

 

Once again, I voice my support for good writing above all else.

[Laozi]

I like this, but then it does read a lot like the plot suggestions I have posted here before, though I was far more verbose.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I don't know, I didn't take a word count, but that almost certainly my longest post to date

[metadigital]

... You would be given certain force powers (force push, force speed, healing) and of course you have constructed your own lightsaber. From there you will have the option of talking to several of the instructors at the academy. This is where you would aquire most of the abilities associated with "leveling up". Each instructor would give you the option of teaching you different techniques with in the force. I would say you'd probaly get the option of choosing 1 of 3 from each instructor, after which one that you didn't choose wouldn't be available later, making the decisions pretty important, but certain "base level" powers would always be available. Also I guess it would be important to note this: Where as I'm not sure that dual-wielding would be available this earily in the game, when it does become available there would be a big difference with this game. Befor the whole idea seemd to be the only better then being a Jedi with a lightsaber is being a Jedi with two. In this game you would be warned that you can indeed have two lightsaber or a saberstaff, but the draback would be that enemies will have a much easier time making "saves" against your force powers, and those powers that aid you will have a "watered down" effect because of the level of concentration required limits your force ability. I think this is entirely fair and needs to be in K3 reguardless.

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Like this a lot. It is far too overpowering to have two lightsabres, and there is no penalty (apart from the commensurate loss of feats)!

 

I think you might want to consider a dual path plot, however, whereby the PC can either overtly choose to be DS at the beginning, or (preferably) begin the game at the same place but have a critical point where the DS and LS paths diverge.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, it was a big post, wasn't it?

[Laozi]

Like this a lot. It is far too overpowering to have two lightsabres, and there is no penalty (apart from the commensurate loss of feats)!

 

I think you might want to consider a dual path plot, however, whereby the PC can either overtly choose to be DS at the beginning, or (preferably) begin the game at the same place but have a critical point where the DS and LS paths diverge.

 

Yes, it was a big post, wasn't it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I guess I wasn't clear at all on that point, the idea being when you have to choose to either kill your "Master" and go with the Sith, or slay the Sith, is sort of that moment. I guess you'd go with thge Sith to a Korribanlike place and learn their ways, aquiring Sith powers from Sith Masters instead of Jedi powers. As I said before this would just be the beginning of the game, sort of a Taris.