Do you like randomness?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

As you may or may not know I've currently been on a bit of a FireEmblem binge.

FireEmblem games have two things that set them appart.

 

First is the permadeath , character dies and they stay dead (unless its a lord then its game over since its basically their story so it cant continue without them).

 

The other is the RNG or random number generator that comes in every time you level up. What this means is there are no guarentees in FireEmblem, while one game you may have an absolutely devastating Florina who can destroy mages with a single strike, in the next game she may never get over 10 str. Such is the fickle nature of the random number generator.

 

I'm actually rather fond of it because even if you play on the same maps the way the characters grow will have a huge impact on how they play out. For example in one game my Ken had double attack very early on and could kill most things in a single turn. In another game he had double attack but at level 10 only 7 strength so what worked in the first game no longer worked and the tactics had to be adapted.

 

Its not totally random of course. Some characters are more predesposed to certain stats than others.

 

a characters stat growth looks something like this

 

HP-90%

STR-40%

SKL-30%

SPD-30%

LCK-30%

DEF-55%

MDF-20%

 

Everytime they level an invisible percentile dice determines if a stat increases or not. So as you can see for this character there is a very good chance of extra hps per level. A little over 50/50 for defence and not much for anything else.

 

I think this gives the game a much more organic feel as well as leading to some tough choices as a commander. Do you drop a character who is not making the grade, or stick with them in hopes that they will come good later on. Or you could pile on stat enhancers to keep your favourites on the battlefield at the price of weakening your army overall.

[Musopticon?]

Well, randomizing is an interesting concept, but I feel that it would prove tricky in more(sorry for the wording>) "serious" rpgs. For instance, Flagship Studios's next game, Hellgate: London will feature randomized world, much like Diablo, except for one thing: The most important locales will be pre-made. I think rpgs could benefit from randomizing, you know; replayability, even realism. On the other hand, I don't exactly like the other extremity, rogue-likes, like ADOM where nothing is the same on different playthroughs.

[Volourn]

Completely random? So player skill, and intelligence is useless? Ok then.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Well, randomizing is an interesting concept, but I feel that it would prove tricky in more(sorry for the wording>) "serious" rpgs. For instance, Flagship Studios's next game, Hellgate: London will feature randomized world, much like Diablo, except for one thing: The most important locales will be pre-made. I think rpgs could benefit from randomizing, you know; replayability, even realism. On the other hand, I don't exactly like the other extremity, rogue-likes, like ADOM where nothing is the same on different playthroughs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Dont know a great deal about Hellgate. Diablo's most important locales were also premade as I recall. It was the linking areas that were randomised.

 

I'm more interested in the aspect of randomness when it comes to characters really. This "forces" adaptation on the player without having to purposely nerf yourself, which is pretty nonsensical when you think about it.

 

Having NPCs that didnt always grow at the same rate each game would certainly take much of the predictability out of replaying a game.

[taks]

i'm not a fan of randomness. while i agree that replayability may be high, there are reasons i don't play some of the other variations of characters in crpgs. i just don't like them.

 

in a game where i do not control how my character progresses, i may end up with a character i don't like. certainly this provides a new option for me, but just because there are more options does not mean there is more fun with each. my game would then have a certain percentage chance of not being fun, regardless of the quality of the game overall.

 

taks

[Musopticon?]

I'm more interested in the aspect of randomness when it comes to characters really. This "forces" adaptation on the player without having to purposely nerf yourself, which is pretty nonsensical when you think about it.

 

Having NPCs that didnt always grow at the same rate each game would certainly take much of the predictability out of replaying a game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, but hw far can one go before planning forward is no longer neede and the game becames pure luck? I agree with you though.

[Lord Tingeling]

It's not "pure luck". The tools you have to work with are somewhat randomized, though.

 

Oh, and I never really liked Fire emblem that much. The one I played for the BGA felt like Advance Wars with a dash of RP, and I farkin' loathed Advance wars, so...

 

I still completed it and all that, but it wouldn't rank up there with my favourite games of all time, that's for sure.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Yeah, but hw far can one go before planning forward is no longer neede and the game becames pure luck? I agree with you though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No such thing as pure luck

 

Not being able to preplan is part of the charm. If you can already predict the outcome of every game. For example if Ken could always kill everything in a single round, then there is little reason to actually play out the events (or replay the game). Since there is little reason to change your underlying strategy.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Oh, and I never really liked Fire emblem that much. The one I played for the BGA felt like Advance Wars with a dash of RP, and I farkin' loathed Advance wars, so...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

off topic but since it's my topic anyway :D

 

A lot of people say that although its not something I've really understood. In Advance Wars you build stuff so individuals matter very little in FireEmblem because of the perma death thing they are the core of the game. Probably why I like it but am not overly fond of Advance Wars.

 

Like your persian btw :D

[Lord Tingeling]

Well, I was aiming for a pikachu, but stuff happened. You know how it is.

 

And I'd say that how you aquire your units and so on is different, but the rest isn't. In the context of NWN, wheter you play the OC or Volourn's scary evil NWN mod the core game remains the same, even if you encounter different monsters and so on.

 

in the context of AW vs Emblem, the gameplay is extremely similar between the two, even if the units and strategies are not.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Well, I was aiming for a pikachu, but stuff happened. You know how it is.

 

And I'd say that how you aquire your units and so on is different, but the rest isn't. In the context of NWN, wheter you play the OC or Volourn's scary evil NWN mod the core game remains the same, even if you encounter different monsters and so on.

 

in the context of AW vs Emblem, the gameplay is extremely similar between the two, even if the units and strategies are not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Got to watch those egg groups.

 

I dont know, I think it's pretty superficial criteria. Since we are talking about randomness. Advance Wars dosnt have any, all units churn out to the same pattern. Your CO isnt on the field so you dont have to weigh up the risks of having to level them up over exposing them to danger etc.

[Musopticon?]

I always hated Advance Wars after playing the first one. I didn't see the point, as you had Worms and HoMM.

[Lord Tingeling]

Got to watch those egg groups.

 

Reminds me of when I wanted to breed a Scyther with Razor leaf, oh, four or five years ago? What a pain that was.

 

I dont know, I think it's pretty superficial criteria. Since we are talking about randomness. Advance Wars dosnt have any, all units churn out to the same pattern. Your CO isnt on the field so you dont have to weigh up the risks of having to level them up over exposing them to danger etc.

 

Oh, that. Well, AW isn't very random at all. What I was saying is that I didn't like Fire Emblem because it felt and played a lot like AW, with a few added elements (such as the whole RPG aspect).

[Weiser_Cain]

I like to build characters so I wouldn't like just having random stats asigned to characters.

[Zagor]

One thing that I strongly dislike is the random extra hitpoints you get when you level up in, for example, baldurs gate.

It forces me to reload until I get something I can live with.

[Musopticon?]

That's called "playing by the rules".

[Lord Tingeling]

With the retarded level cap and difficulty in said game, I think maximizing hp isn't all that evil, especially in a game with only two characters.

[Musopticon?]

Nothing evil in reloading. I was rather relieved that they chose make the rule optional in IWD 2.

[SteveThaiBinh]

Randomness is good, but needs to be handled carefully. You must make sure that the game is sufficiently well-designed and complex that it really can accommodate lots of different styles of play, and you also need to convince a skeptical player of this. OK, so my character got lots of persuasion points and not much strength - is this really going to enable me to advance by an alternative route? Otherwise people will just reload until they get what they think is the 'best' outcome - which most people don't enjoy.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Randomness is good, but needs to be handled carefully.  You must make sure that the game is sufficiently well-designed and complex that it really can accommodate lots of different styles of play, and you also need to convince a skeptical player of this.  OK, so my character got lots of persuasion points and not much strength - is this really going to enable me to advance by an alternative route?  Otherwise people will just reload until they get what they think  is the 'best' outcome - which most people don't enjoy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think one of the things FE has going for it over say D&D's hp's is your only talking about 1 stat per level and there is a good chance that you will hit the characters stat cap even if you dont gain every level. While ten levels of not getting any str isnt "fun" the way you then need to adapt is.

 

in D&D however rolling a one for hp's when you could have gotten a 10 other is always going to be seen as a very serious handicap to the uberness of a character.

[Azarkon]

A loaded question.

 

Answer yes, and you are branded a gambler, a luck dependent, a gamer who substitutes for skill the roll of the dice.

 

Answer no, and you are a determinist, a predictaramas, a person who cannot appreciate chaos and who cannot adapt to the unknown.

 

Do I like randomness? Of course! Of course not. I appreciate the uncertainty that lies in Schrodinger's box, but too much of it and my choices become meaningless. Perceived order makes me think that I've some skills of observance, but too much of that and action becomes meaningless - as I'd already know the results.

 

Balance, in all things ideological, is best.

[taks]

One thing that I strongly dislike is the random extra hitpoints you get when you level up in, for example, baldurs gate.

It forces me to reload until I get something I can live with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

this is a different issue. by "reloading to get better scores" you essentially ruin the balance of the game. the randomness is designed to create characters with certain mean hit points and some variance. your average roll of the dice over several levels will create appropriately balanced characters.

 

of course, the same goes for rerolling stats to create an uber character... which i do

 

taks

[taks]

I appreciate the uncertainty that lies in Schrodinger's box, but too much of it and my choices become meaningless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

a point that is really only valid at atomic scales... and has little to do with free will. random behaviors drive our physical world, not mental.

 

however, random processes only have so many areas within the gaming world that make sense to me, since it is my purchased game that i'd like to play my way.

 

btw, nearly every pseudo-random number generator used in nearly every crpg in existence has been horribly flawed. it really detracts from the gaming experience when "trends" in certain rolls are common and readily observable. my fav is in BG when a mage scribes scrolls with a 95% chance of success. it is nearly impossible to scribe more than 2 or 3 in a row. i think 4 is my record. even when i have a 25 int it still fails after 5 or 6 regularly. they borked that one badly.

 

taks

[Drakron]

The problem with random HP in Baldur

[Cantousent]

I'm a fan of random drops and such. I'm not a fan of the game assigning my stats, skills, and other attributes randomly. One of the elements of a role playing game is the ability to create the character you want to play. Anything that destroys that illussion just doesn't make sense to me.