metadigital Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 I guess ther is a geeky element to guns too.... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So, the fact that we're discussing guns on the pen and paper section of a computer RPG website during the wee small hours of our respective timezones didn't tell you we were geeks? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> How's this for geeky: Ah i feel it is my duty to inform you that this is in fact Way Off Topic and not Pen and Paper gaming. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I thought of that, and then I thought that this thread might have been started in Pen&Paper and moved by the Green Dragon or Sanity-challenged Joe ... OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Flatus Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 either way it was in WOT when walsingham made his post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11XHooah Posted June 17, 2005 Author Share Posted June 17, 2005 This thread has always been in the Way off Topic section. Anyway, nice Monty Python parody Metaldigital :D War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. --John Stewart Mill-- "Victory was for those willing to fight and die. Intellectuals could theorize until they sucked their thumbs right off their hands, but in the real world, power still flowed from the barrel of a gun.....you could send in your bleeding-heart do-gooders, you could hold hands and pray and sing hootenanny songs and invoke the great gods CNN and BBC, but the only way to finally open the roads to the big-eyed babies was to show up with more guns." --Black Hawk Down-- MySpace: http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea...iendid=44500195 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Soldier Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 The Steyer is the most advanced weapon in the market. In North Ireland the SAS is using the Steyer in to versions; 1 with single/full automatic, and the other with 3 round burst. It's got build-in optic sight which maker it very precise. The Steyer is a reliable weapon under almost every condition. Type Automat carabin Range 500 meters Caliber 5.56 Weight 3.6 kilos Velocity 650 Rpm Magasine 30 - 42 round Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaftan Barlast Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 There is much backup for the fact that 5.56mm lacks stopping power and penetration. Under the right circumstances, it does tumble and fragment within the body causing substantial tissue damage. But the human body is not a block of soap(what commonly used to test ammo behaviour within bodies) and so that is not always true. But forget that and look to the hard facts; the 5.56mm is a very small and light bullet traveling at high speed, this means that the amount of kinetic energy transferred into the target at impact is relatively small. This is the scientific explanation of stopping power. A large heavy bullet traveling at less speed(like a .45) transfers many times more kinetic energy into the target. The 5.56mm will punch a hole in the target but it will not give off anywhere near the energy to knock a man off his feet or even shock him. Depenging on circumstances, the person hit will usually have enough time to return fire before succumbing to the effects of the internal damage. Police all over the world have similar problems with the 9mm, thats why the FBI ordered special custom 10mm SMG's and why theres so many hollow-point variations, to add stopping power. And regarding penetration; the 5.56mm fragments or tumbles and halts when hitting a wall or a tree, this is why SWAT and similar uses M4s an other 5.56 weapons, because it decreases the risk of civilians being hit through walls or from ricochets. It does however pierce body armour qite well depending on the ammo used. A 7.62x51mm will go through walls, trees, sandbags, cars, and most body armour. I read something about a SEALs comment on why he used an old M14 "with this I can hit enemies behind trees". I wish I knew more useful things instead of having my head full of this garbage :"> DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadigital Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 This thread has always been in the Way off Topic section. Anyway, nice Monty Python parody Metaldigital :D <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I wish I knew more useful things instead of having my head full of this garbage :"> <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It will come in handy once the revolution comes ... And now, for something completely different: The Energia (or Energiya, Энергия in Russian) OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11XHooah Posted June 17, 2005 Author Share Posted June 17, 2005 You want a missile? How about an ICBM: The Titan 4B missile War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. --John Stewart Mill-- "Victory was for those willing to fight and die. Intellectuals could theorize until they sucked their thumbs right off their hands, but in the real world, power still flowed from the barrel of a gun.....you could send in your bleeding-heart do-gooders, you could hold hands and pray and sing hootenanny songs and invoke the great gods CNN and BBC, but the only way to finally open the roads to the big-eyed babies was to show up with more guns." --Black Hawk Down-- MySpace: http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea...iendid=44500195 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Soldier Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 The fault of the 5.56mm is that it has no stopping power and very little penetration capacity compared to the 7.62mm. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous.. You're basically saying you can get shot several times by the same ammunition that the serial killer a few years back used to kill a bunch of people in Washington. Remember that? He and his young cousin (or something) were hidden in a car and kept shooting innocent people. One shot.. You'll be needing stopping power everytime you need to take down a charging moose (called 30-06 in Sweden, same as 7.62mm), but not for neutralizing a human being. Also, depending on what ammo you use (full metal jacket, hollow point, different gunpowder types etc.), you can basically shoot through any body armour availible. Very little penetration? It's a high velocity weapon using mostly full metal jackets.. The Swedish army uses full metal jackets in wartime because the aim is not to kill the enemy, just to take him out of combat and wound him. A wounded soldier takes 2 other soldiers to help him, creating more hassle and work for the enemy. A dead soldier is just that; dead. And yes, you've indeed played too much Counterstrike if you believe that people getting shot several times and still keep running is the normal case. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The SS-109 can penetrate the 3.45mm standard NATO steel plate to 640 meters, while the 7.62mm ball can only penetrate it to 620 meters. The U. S. steel helmet penetration results are even more impressive as the SS-109 can penetrate it up to 1,300 meters, while the 7.62mm ball cannot penetrate it beyond 800 meters. The current production 7.62 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walsingham Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 Hah! Man knows his stuff. :D - I don't agree about the block of soap deal. I mean, i agree humans aren't made of soap (after extensive shower testing). But the fact that 5.56 kills is not a matter for debate. Nobody goes into the field asking "Ooh, I hope they're firing 5.56mm, tehn I won't get hurt." Because 5.56 will fething well kill you! - It's true that the 5.56 round is not so great as 7.62 for shooting up buildings for precisely the same reasons that it is good for killing people. But if I was going into a built up area I'd still take a 5.56 weapon, because I am going to be missing more often, and need more ammo. In fact, I'd rather take a shotgun, but they're against the Geneva convention. "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11XHooah Posted June 17, 2005 Author Share Posted June 17, 2005 (edited) - It's true that the 5.56 round is not so great as 7.62 for shooting up buildings for precisely the same reasons that it is good for killing people. But if I was going into a built up area I'd still take a 5.56 weapon, because I am going to be missing more often, and need more ammo. In fact, I'd rather take a shotgun, but they're against the Geneva convention. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'd take a 5.56 weapon like the M4 over the shotgun anyday. With a shotgun you have limited range and less ammo capacity,you only have 5-7 rounds in a SG, compared to 30 rd 5.56 or 15 in a pistol mag. The shotgun sucks at longer ranges, i.e., the "beaten zone" of the buckshot unless you have a custom barrel, smooth bores suck. If you go in with an M4, you've got 30 rounds to expend, plus you have the range that you need. And shotguns are still used in war. I don't believe you can use them against personnel, unless the situation calls for it, but I know they use them for ballistic breach entries in CQC. You basically put a shotgun round into the outside of the door where the hinges are in the inside, and then you kick it down. But it's not exactly the kind of entry you want to use during CQB because they know when you're coming in. It would be best to just kick down the door. Edited June 17, 2005 by 11XHooah War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. --John Stewart Mill-- "Victory was for those willing to fight and die. Intellectuals could theorize until they sucked their thumbs right off their hands, but in the real world, power still flowed from the barrel of a gun.....you could send in your bleeding-heart do-gooders, you could hold hands and pray and sing hootenanny songs and invoke the great gods CNN and BBC, but the only way to finally open the roads to the big-eyed babies was to show up with more guns." --Black Hawk Down-- MySpace: http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea...iendid=44500195 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaftan Barlast Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 I have never said that the 5.56mm is not a lethal round on the contrary, its wounding capacity is quite nasty as can be seen from this diagram of a M855 5.56mm NATO cartridge: What im saying is that it lacks stopping power. And also that it ability to penetrate soft cover is less than the 7.62 -not always a bad thing as: the 5.56mm fragments or tumbles and halts when hitting a wall or a tree, this is why SWAT and similar uses M4s an other 5.56 weapons, because it decreases the risk of civilians being hit through walls or from ricochets. DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11XHooah Posted June 17, 2005 Author Share Posted June 17, 2005 Oh yeah, I almost forgot to mention. The M4 (as well as the M16) has a shotgun attachment called the LSS (Lightweight Shotgun System). It's also known as the XM-26 Modular Assault Shotgun System. LSS is manually operated with a straight pull bolt action with a reversible charging handle that can be switched allowing ambidexterity. War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. --John Stewart Mill-- "Victory was for those willing to fight and die. Intellectuals could theorize until they sucked their thumbs right off their hands, but in the real world, power still flowed from the barrel of a gun.....you could send in your bleeding-heart do-gooders, you could hold hands and pray and sing hootenanny songs and invoke the great gods CNN and BBC, but the only way to finally open the roads to the big-eyed babies was to show up with more guns." --Black Hawk Down-- MySpace: http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea...iendid=44500195 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadigital Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 Is the explosive charge of the munitions a variable? If the charge is the same for both the 7.62mm and 5.56mm, then the lighter, smaller projectile will travel faster and further (conservation of momentum, with a smaller mass). Plesae remember I have little specific knowledge of munitions, per se. OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkreku Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 Its a bit long winded sorry <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually, it's much more long-winded than that. Original source here: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/lib...rt/1986/MVT.htm Anyhow, 'stopping power' isn't really a factor in the swedish army. In our country only a tiny fraction of battles would take place in cities or other densely populated areas, where the short ranges would call for stopping power. Stopping power is mostly used in small handguns (pistols and revolvers), because they're close range weapons. The police, for example, would have a need for this. Swedes, go to: Spel2, for the latest game reviews in swedish! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadigital Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 I'm curious who the Swedish army thinks is it's main target ... Norway? " OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarjahurmaaja. Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 There's no one else there, so probably yeah. They'll never see it coming... 9/30 -- NEVER FORGET! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaftan Barlast Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 -So me and Goran the prime minstrel of Schweizen here we're.. uhh, good friends and I etc. etc. -Soon, you wil burn in the fires of ultimate jihad. -What was that Goran? You said something? -Nothing George, it was nothing. " DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11XHooah Posted June 17, 2005 Author Share Posted June 17, 2005 Now now, let's not derail the thread. Otherwise the green dragon will come :ph34r: Here's the M9. I wish the Army would go back to the M1911 though War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. --John Stewart Mill-- "Victory was for those willing to fight and die. Intellectuals could theorize until they sucked their thumbs right off their hands, but in the real world, power still flowed from the barrel of a gun.....you could send in your bleeding-heart do-gooders, you could hold hands and pray and sing hootenanny songs and invoke the great gods CNN and BBC, but the only way to finally open the roads to the big-eyed babies was to show up with more guns." --Black Hawk Down-- MySpace: http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea...iendid=44500195 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadigital Posted June 18, 2005 Share Posted June 18, 2005 What's the best pistol for home defence? OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabrielle Posted June 18, 2005 Share Posted June 18, 2005 What's the best pistol for home defence? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Desert Eagle 44 Mag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jodo kast 5 Posted June 18, 2005 Share Posted June 18, 2005 What's the best pistol for home defence? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> to hell with the pistol a gatling gun is a hell of a lot better than the pistol . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11XHooah Posted June 18, 2005 Author Share Posted June 18, 2005 What's the best pistol for home defence? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I would go with the M9 actually. Although it only shoots 9mm rounds, it's a fairly good firearm. You could go for a higher caliber pistol like the .45, but you only have 7-8 rounds per magazine. With the M9, you have 15. Not that it matters if your a good shot, but still. The more the better. IMO, it's not absolutely necessary to have a high caliber firearm for home defense, but some people prefer it. But, if you want to be a real bada**, you could buy a shotgun. Once they hear you pump it, they'll know to run :D War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. --John Stewart Mill-- "Victory was for those willing to fight and die. Intellectuals could theorize until they sucked their thumbs right off their hands, but in the real world, power still flowed from the barrel of a gun.....you could send in your bleeding-heart do-gooders, you could hold hands and pray and sing hootenanny songs and invoke the great gods CNN and BBC, but the only way to finally open the roads to the big-eyed babies was to show up with more guns." --Black Hawk Down-- MySpace: http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea...iendid=44500195 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure79 Posted June 18, 2005 Share Posted June 18, 2005 It never fails to amaze how much people know about any given subject posted on these forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaguars4ever Posted June 18, 2005 Share Posted June 18, 2005 But, if you want to be a real bada**, you could buy a shotgun. Once they hear you pump it, they'll know to run :D <{POST_SNAPBACK}> And, if you want to be the ultimate badass, you can saw of the end of it and carry under your trench coat. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walsingham Posted June 18, 2005 Share Posted June 18, 2005 Sorry, kaftan. I guess I did over-react. I got the impression that you were saying 5.56 wouldn't kill you, but if I understand correctly you are saying it lacked quick stopping power. i.e. the ability to rip you to pieces, not cause lethal damage. I read the FBI's report debating stopping power they cam up with in the 90s. Their conclusion was that it is a very unpredictable thing. Surprise seemed to have as much to do with it as bullet size. My decision for using a shotgun, particularly for self-defence is that you've got a better chance of hitting with at least something. This will give the receiver pause for thought. Most times they will decide a tactical retreat is in order. The other reason is that if your nerves go and you start shaking, you still have some hope of hitting. I'd go for one of the south african riot guns. "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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