Where the Endgame REALLY went wrong

[Ki Rin]

Am I the only one that was primarily dissasitisfied with the CHARACTER endings?

 

Statement: the character ending was going to be much worse as in they all get slain by the hag

 

with the whole Empire Strikes Back comparison, I see it more like...

 

You see the millenium falcon land on cloud city, and thats it.  Luke has his premonition and goes to cloud city as well.  he doesnt see leia or chewbacca or anyone else, and he goes into the trap, has his fight with darth vader, vader cuts his hand of yadda yadda "i am your father", then vader asks him to join the dark side AND THEN IT ENDS.

 

Statement: cannot compare it to the empire strikes back if there is no 3rd game or the 3rd game does not feature same characters.

[Jivin]

Statement: the character ending was going to be much worse as in they all get slain by the hag

 

I disagree. At least then it would be proper closure (although it would be a bit garish, espcially for LS ending). As it stands we have no idea what happened to them on Malachor V and we got no closure whatsoever to the individual relationships between them and the exile. If they all died at the hands of Kreia then it wouldnt make much sense, but at least their stories would come to a proper close, instead of just being told a vauge one-liner by Kreia that sums up the rest of their lives. You should know to that if your referring to the cut ending, then in that all of them do not die (or at least so it seems) because there is cut dialogue were the exile has the chance to talk with some of his companions regarding what must be done in the future.

 

Statement: cannot compare it to the empire strikes back if there is no 3rd game or the 3rd game does not feature same characters.

 

Oh but I can. Go back 25 years to when there was no Return of the Jedi, it would be a very similar situation.

 

- Dan

[dabise]

Yeah, pretty much sums it all up here in this thread.

 

 

1.) The ending sucked. You sliced and diced Kreia up into tiny bits but instead of the obligitory last words she has a 'Last Essay' and if I recall correctly, she even allows you to ask her to repeat what she just said with her grievious wounds and all

 

2.) One ending I had did not make ANY sense. One moment on Malachor V the ebon hawk is falling into a chasm (and doesn't fly out) and then after Kreia is finished lecturing me on what is to come, I am flying off of Malachor in the ebon hawk?

 

 

 

 

 

I think what they ended up doing was setting up Kreia to be like that librarian at the end of Hordes of the Underdark (NWN). He tells the story of what happens after you face the 'bad guy' and win. He tells you what happens between you and your romantic interests as well as every NPC that you paid attention to and took the time to learn about.

 

 

The difference between the HotU librarian and Kreia is that the story was done BEFORE the librarian came out. The Librarian just informed you on some little details about your friends and yourself.

 

Kreia, however was used as a crutch for the KotOR2 ending. They cut so much from the story they had to have her blab for 5 hours while critically wounded to try and salvage OEs hard work. The story was NOT finished. There were just too many loose ends. Her conversation also allows you to skip some information about how the story ends (intentional or not). Very, VERY lame.

 

 

Another problem with the story was that it was influence driven. If you didn't get the influence you missed some VERY important facts to the story. I've played through a few times already and when I come to these boards and folks mention things they read from certain characters I think to myself: "Hey, that's why this happened" etc.

 

 

KotOR2 was a great idea. So is a solar powered car. The problem with these two ideas is that if they don't perform like the older technologies people will go back to games that have endings that are finished and gasoline powered cars that can make it up that hill even when the clouds are out

 

 

For the record, I did like KotOR2... but as soon as I left Dantooine I hated it and haven't seen the ending more than once because every time I get to the meeting at Dantooine I stop playing as I don't want to forget the fun I had getting there.

 

 

THAT is how bad the ending is. Ever watched a movie where you get to a certain point and just turn it off because the ending is THAT BAD?

[Jivin]

Kreia, however was used as a crutch for the KotOR2 ending.  They cut so much from the story they had to have her blab for 5 hours while critically wounded to try and salvage OEs hard work.  The story was NOT finished.  There were just too many loose ends.  Her conversation also allows you to skip some information about how the story ends (intentional or not).  Very, VERY lame.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well said

 

I see your point with the whole "good idea but not so good execution" bit too. I love the idea of what KOTOR2 was trying to do, and to some extent they succeeded, but for whatever reasons, and regardless of who is to blame, they sorta fell apart in some key areas (especially the ending).

 

With that said, there is no doubt that because they didn't quite pull it off a lot of poeple will prefer the 'safer' more complete KOTOR1, and I can't say that I dont see why. It's like... for some reason I like the movie Starship Troopers, despite the fact its lame, simple and utterly transperant in every aspect As far as im concerned thats like KOTOR1 for me (although not as lame )... and I love it! :D

 

- Dan

[Dragonforce]

this is a great thread, drakonnen has hit the nail on the head so many times while dabise has basically stated everything wrong with the way the game ended

 

i hope obsidian are taking notes

[AlanC9]

Kreia, however was used as a crutch for the KotOR2 ending.  They cut so much from the story they had to have her blab for 5 hours while critically wounded to try and salvage OEs hard work.  The story was NOT finished.  There were just too many loose ends.  Her conversation also allows you to skip some information about how the story ends (intentional or not).  Very, VERY lame.

 

No, that makes no sense. The cuts happened after the VO was recorded. That's why we have audio for the cut material. So Kreia was always going to blab like that. Unless they got the actress in to rerecord dialog, but that's very unlikely.

[Jedihuh?]

same ol' same ol'

[Vashanti]

For the record, I did like KotOR2... but as soon as I left Dantooine I hated it and haven't seen the ending more than once because every time I get to the meeting at Dantooine I stop playing as I don't want to forget the fun I had getting there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I have seen the ending as a lightsider and a darksider a couple of times, but the last several playthroughs, yah, I stop at the Dantooine bit.

 

Well, I like to go confront Atris too.

[Wynne]

You're certifiably loony. Morrowind was never in a shape where it could be called a game, let alone finished or 'perfected'. A board and some pieces, or a sandbox, but no game.

 

No, dearie, it is a game. It's just not a Bioware/Obsidian RPG. It's more an exploration game than anything else, and I was referring to technical perfection, not the epitome of RPG joy. They made it what they wanted it to be, what their known audience was asking for, and didn't leave anything unfinished. The characters were unsatisfying, yes, but not unfinished. Not left without closure. The game was a worthy sequel to the series and features all the staples of it. That it wasn't your cup of tea doesn't make me any less sane or my points less valid.

 

Also, Morrowind did have classes. How could you not notice that?

 

I do not say that the game is about Nihilus - merely that I feel he could have made a much more interesting *final* step on the Exile's path to rediscovery than Treya. Nihilus IS as close to Malachor V personified as things will ever get, and the ramifications for facing him down and what that would have meant for the Exile could have been so much more than they were.

 

I think this thread is basically about you having built Nihilus up in your mind more than anybody else did, which is fine, but leads to a lot of disagreement. Is it because he had a neat mask like Vader? Because that's deceptive. Nihilus had no personality. He was about as scary as the Vader cutout at my store. As Blaise said, total lackey. I can't get why you thought he would be better at the end, especially since he was such a wuss.

 

Think about it--if Kreia gives you your final guidance, "Hey, Nihilus can't hurt you because he put mucho points into Force Drain but you're a wound in the Force, so just hit him twice and he'll go down," how exactly would that rule again? Because it seems to me like that would be the real boredom... going off to Malachor to squash an ant.

 

I don't know why you want Nihilus so badly to be the end boss, other than the fact that Kreia admittedly exposited way overmuch. But that could be solved more readily by her not expositing overmuch. By the plot being executed better. By LA not rushing Obsidian.

 

What I mean is that keeping the same events and storylines is fine, they just needed to flesh it out more: cut scenes with your party members on the ship as you approach Malachor (or leave them behind on Telos); a substantially different dark side ending movie; dialogue and scenes of you with your party as you all flew away from Malachor; a visual representation of the fates of the planets as Kreia tells you (like they did with Arcanum).

 

I realise a lot of this is just eye-candy, but I think it was the feeling of insubstantiality, rather than any deep flaws, that caused people to come away dissatisfied and to log onto these forums to express that.  The order of events (ending at Malachor 5 rather than Telos), was logical I think, and probably not the main problem.

 

Yeah... spot-on, I think. Some closure, some kind of dealing with the emotions of your party members, sort of like the conversations between everyone on the ship towards the end of the first KOTOR after you finish the unknown planet... anything other than just holo-Bao-Dur and playing as Mira and the freaking remote. I don't want to play as them, I want to play as me, and have them be characters. Nothing makes you feel more alone than having to make up the people around you. Hey, we're geeks, we already do that in real life, we don't need to do it in a game!

 

I think that the Exile should have confronted Nihilius twice. The first time, of course, in the battle at Telos, where after grossly underestimating each other the Exile destroys Nihilus' physical form, thus *temporairily* banishing it from existance.

 

The second time, on Malachor V, place of Nihilus' first, and now second, re-birth. In this second battle Nihilus would be far more powerful than before, and the player would have to destory Nihilus once and for all(I don't know how), and, if you had freed your other party members, it would give you multiple opportunitys to either save them or sacrifice them, and it would force the Exile to come to terms with their true nature, and to finally choose a path to follow, before confronting Traya.

 

Oh, now that I like. That, I really like. Somebody should make a mod. Although, I don't think you should kill Nihilus; he should run away like Malak did--resurrection doesn't really work in Star Wars. Other than that, I think that's a perfect ending... so much more character potential.

 

Obsidian, HIRE OHMA.

[Illbleed]

Well, the ending was disappointing ..... but it could have been much better.

What about your mates? You travel with them through the whole galaxy and they don't appear at malachor?? (okay, some of them do, but in a way that don't satisfy)

 

Lets hope the restoration team makes the game "complete" soon. Different endings (sacrifices and betrayals) and some more conclusion would be a nice thing .... and i am looking forward to the cutted nihilus-conversation choices that will be reactivated.

G0T0 destroyed by HK 47 .... THAT would/will be a nice cutscene!!! I hate G0T0 ...

[Drakonnen]

I think this thread is basically about you having built Nihilus up in your mind more than anybody else did, which is fine, but leads to a lot of disagreement.

 

I can't get why you thought he would be better at the end, especially since he was such a wuss.

 

Why did anyone think he would be better? Maybe it had something about him consuming planets, wiping out the assembled Jedi council with ease, the darkness built up around him, Visas' dialogue about him, and the fear that with the Jedi wiped out he'd consume the whole galaxy??

 

Did you miss that stuff or something?

 

Think about it--if Kreia gives you your final guidance, "Hey, Nihilus can't hurt you because he put mucho points into Force Drain but you're a wound in the Force, so just hit him twice and he'll go down," how exactly would that rule again? Because it seems to me like that would be the real boredom... going off to Malachor to squash an ant.

 

Well, thats reall not what it would be like, is it? Anytime one of the Masters or Kreia taught you a new form or power or some such, it was generally well done scene wise. There is no reason to assume that doing it again for Exile's own personal power would be any different.

 

I don't know why you want Nihilus so badly to be the end boss, other than the fact that Kreia admittedly exposited way overmuch. But that could be solved more readily by her not expositing overmuch. By the plot being executed better. By LA not rushing Obsidian.

 

Nihilus, the world killer, makes a far more convincing final bad guy than a muddled, prattling, hypocritical, gimped old hag.

 

I've said repeatedly why I think it would be better storywise to rearrange the order, but something I'm surprised at is how many people are reluctant to admit that it was all downhill after Telos. Even if there were a better ending added, things still slowed down tremendously on Malachor following the more Climactic Telos battle with Nihilus in which everyone took part.

 

Better to end the game on a high note, build up and action wise, even if you disagree with the better storyline wise side of it.

 

I don't think you should kill Nihilus; he should run away like Malak did--resurrection doesn't really work in Star Wars.

 

Tell that to the reborn Emperor and Exar Kun.

[Ohma]

Oh, now that I like. That, I really like. Somebody should make a mod. Although, I don't think you should kill Nihilus; he should run away like Malak did--resurrection doesn't really work in Star Wars. Other than that, I think that's a perfect ending... so much more character potential.

 

Obsidian, HIRE OHMA.

 

There is a reason that I said I was giving my .00 cents, and that I totally and utterly SUCK when it comes to properly conveying my thoughts.

 

Yes, I could have taken two or three hours to flesh out my idea to perfection, and yes I could have just not said anything at all, but, just because my idea wasn't super-fantastically-wow-that's-so-frigging-amazing dosn't mean you have to be sarcastic and put it down with THAT much venom... ...it's not like I disagreed with you or said you were crazy or anything...

[Grant Dempsey]

There is a reason that I said I was giving my .00 cents, and that I totally and utterly SUCK when it comes to properly conveying my thoughts.

 

Yes, I could have taken two or three hours to flesh out my idea to perfection, and yes I could have just not said anything at all, but, just because my idea wasn't super-fantastically-wow-that's-so-frigging-amazing dosn't mean you have to be sarcastic and put it down with THAT much venom... ...it's not like I disagreed with you or said you were crazy or anything...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey, I don't think he was being sarcastic, though... I could be wrong, but I didn't read it as sarcastic.

 

In response to your idea myself, though, I liked it, but I feel that Darth Sion should have played that sort of role on Malachor V (it actually seemed like Darth Sion was going to play a similar role to that in the cut content), while Darth Nihilus would remain dead after being beaten on the Ravager. After all, we can't all forget about poor Darth Sion.

[Ohma]

Hey, I don't think he was being sarcastic, though... I could be wrong, but I didn't read it as sarcastic.

 

In response to your idea myself, though, I liked it, but I feel that Darth Sion should have played that sort of role on Malachor V (it actually seemed like Darth Sion was going to play a similar role to that in the cut content), while Darth Nihilus would remain dead after being beaten on the Ravager. After all, we can't all forget about poor Darth Sion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh...now that you mention it...hah hah...sorry there Wynne...I'm not very good at understanding what people are trying to convey when they speak to me...even in real life... :">

 

Yeah, I was thinking that Sion would've been who you would have to fight to save your friends[LS]/cannon fodder[DS], and that beating him would give you insight on how to destroy Nihilus (heck, why not throw in the option to redeem Sion before he dies, or convert him to you side if you're DS and one of your party members is dead, ta' boot?), and by having it progress from Sion, to Nihilus, to Traya, you get a nice little semi-microcosm of the game up to that point too...sorta'...

[Grant Dempsey]

No, again you seem to be taking out one part of something I wrote and not reading through the entire post.  I've explained -multiple- times how it better fits the story to have the Exile fight the antithesis of himself, the guy with the most power and the same sort of vampiric abilities as the Exile, LAST.  I honestly don't see how you keep missing it unless you're flat out ignoring it.

 

The action however, and the fact that all the factions are focused there does certainly add to the climactic feel of it all.  That doesn't make it the sole reason for it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The reason I keep saying it, then, I suppose, is the fact that you keep emphasizing how you felt the final confrontation with Kreia was "boring" because it had "endless dialogue" and a lack of an "epic" atmosphere. It just seems to me like you have yet to really specify how the climax could have been helped -- in the sense of the storytelling (not just the atmosphere) -- by switching the confrontations with Darth Traya and Darth Nihilus. I mean, you seem to explain it somewhat, when you refer to Darth Nihilus as the "biggest bad guy", but he really just didn't seem to be -- assuming we're talking about the game itself here, not the advertising. Just because Darth Nihilus was a figure of extraordinary power, it didn't automatically mean he was presented or portrayed as the primary antagonist (even if he may have posed the largest "threat to the galaxy" of the characters in the storyline). To me, the Exile's relationship with Kreia seemed to be a much larger conflict in the storyline than Darth Nihilus' rampaging was.

 

P.S. Regarding Kreia's "endless dialogue" during the Exile's final confrontation with her, since when was this game not a primarily dialogue-driven RPG?

 

Oh, come on.

 

Lets recap... Kreia has lied to you, betrayed you, used you as a puppet to go after her enemies, and, get this, wants to see the Force DIE.

 

And now she is going to be the voice of reason?  What kind of friggin' idiot would listen to her at all, knowing what they know, let alone after getting burned by her in the past?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Y'know, I've heard a lot of people bring that up; the thought that everything Kreia said -- even during the final confrontation -- "could" have been complete and utter lies simply because of her previous "half-truths" and manipulations. Personally, I can't help but feel that they missed a major point about her character. The whole point of her character was not that she was a liar and a manipulator, and that the player should feel wholly uncertain about whether or not to trust anything this "insane old woman" ever said. There were times when she was truly honest, when it fit her character to be so (which was actually more often than not), and the final event at the Trayus Core on Malachor V was quite clearly one of those times. She confessed the truth of her motives, her actions, her hopes, and so on. Don't just shrug it all off as automatically untrue or even untrustworthy simply because she "might" have been lying, particularly when the whole point to the dialogue was that it was indeed the "moment of truth" (so to speak) between she and the Exile.

 

It would have made much more sense, and here is why:  Kreia tells Exile what is out there, yes, and she tells him he'd have to leave his allies behind, like Revan did.  Yet it is Carth, far more than Kreia, who shows the Exile the personal sacrifice Revan had to make when deciding to head out into the unknown.  So it makes more sense to get that personal aspect last right before you have to make your personal choice and do the same to your allies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not exactly... What the scene with Carth (and potentially Bastila) on Telos' Citadel Station did was simply further the mystery of Revan's departure from all known space and really only explore Revan's relationships with those particular characters. On the other hand, Kreia's final moments of dialogue actually seemed to resolve said mystery and actually explored Revan's own reasons for leaving, not to mention provide insight as to why Revan left his loved ones and allies behind. It seemed to be the much more fitting course to take -- for the sake of the storytelling -- in how to balance the information that the two scenes offered.

 

Not really.  A similar scene with Canderous tilted toward describing Revan's darkness and the power he left behind could be used instead.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Now, that is an idea that really appeals to me. Not as the game's conclusion or epilogue, but simply as the "Revan fell to the Dark Side of the Force" branch's equivalent to the "Revan returned to the Light Side of the Force" branch's scene with Carth (and potentially Bastila) on Telos' Citadel Station. It would have been an interesting opportunity for "Mandalore" to unmask himself, and for Canderous to provide some insight into the personality of "Revan the Sith Lord" and such (whereas Carth -- and Bastila -- spoke only of "Revan the Jedi Knight"). Then again, the Dark Side path already really had its equivalent to those scenes on Telos' Citadel Station: Bastila's recordings on the Sith Holocron in Korriban's Sith Academy...

 

Exactly my point.  They were both byproducts, similar ones as far as their power goes, and Malachor V was more important personally for the Exile.  So it makes sense for Exile to return their FIRST to understand fully what happened there and learn the last of the necessary secrets and lessons it holds, settling his personal baggage before setting off to defeat the planet consuming antithesis of himself,  Nihilus.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Saving the galaxy from Darth Nihilus wasn't the storyline's main focus, though. It was one of the storyline's major conflicts, certainly, but not the main conflict. As others have said in this thread before me, the storyline's main focus -- its main conflict -- instead seemed to be the Exile's journey of "rediscovery" through confronting unresolved, lingering pieces of his past (of which Malachor V seemed to be the most haunting), as well as the Exile's relationship with Kreia and the training she put him through. Since climaxes are meant to be the culmination points for their storylines' main conflict, it seemed, therefore, that the climax which would have best fit the progression of the storyline, really, would have been the one that was actually there: The Exile's final confrontation with Kreia on Malachor V, during which he resolved his past (having also confronted Malachor V itself in a poetic sense), completed his training, and surpassed his mentor, freeing him to make a choice as to what to do next. It was also the best point at which to conclude the game (with its cliffhanger) because it was pretty much the true turning point for his character, the end of his training and the beginning of his new path. (Please note that I'm not saying the climax -- the scenes on Malachor V -- were handled perfectly (what with the cut content and all), but I support setting the visit to Malachor V as the climax nonetheless.)

 

Furthermore, Malachor V was not only the most haunting unresolved piece of the Exile's past, but also the source of everything that seemed to be happening across the galaxy, the point at which everything had pretty much started. In a very real sense, Malachor V itself as an "entity" -- along with the Trayus Academy on its surface -- posed more of an overall threat to the galaxy than Darth Nihilus himself did. It was where Revan apparently first learned of the "true" Sith Empire's existence beyond the Outer Rim and of the other worlds belonging to the Sith Order, and where he basically began his "fall" to the Dark Side of the Force. It was where the Exile caused the deaths of thousands during the final battle of the Mandalorian Wars and severed his ties to the Force to survive the echoes that resulted. It was where Revan converted so many soldiers and Jedi to his cause during the Jedi Civil War. It was where Kreia first became "Darth Traya". It was the base from which Darth Nihilus and Darth Sion were striking at the galaxy. It was the source of the Exile, Darth Nihilus, and the legions of the Sith's ability to increase their power by "feeding" on war and death.

 

Compared to all of that, Darth Nihilus really was just a man wearing a black cloak and an eerie mask. He had -- for all intents and purposes -- no dialogue and no particular personal connection to the Exile. He possessed the same sort of "feeding" ability as the Exile (admittedly on a much larger scale), which certainly gave him a significant role in the storyline. Just not as significant as Kreia's role, or Malachor V's. Others have called Darth Nihilus a "lackey", which I assume to mean Kreia's lackey (in a poetic sense since he was not in league with her), but he wasn't entirely that; he was Malachor V's "lackey" as well. He had become a sort of living (or not quite so since he lost his humanity) manifestation of the echoes of Malachor V, existing simply to sustain his hunger and spread the echo.

 

Personally, considering Malachor V's significance within the storyline and to the Exile's character, I think it was infintely more dramatic that the Exile's ultimate fate was determined by whether he chose to destroy Malachor V and rid the galaxy of its hideous power and corruptive energies for good or let Malachor V survive with its corruptive energies and hideous power intact (ultimately choosing to either undo and attone for or "accept" and revel in what he caused there), rather than by how he dealt with Darth Nihilus. Leading the Exile from Malachor V back to Telos to confront Darth Nihilus, his so-called "antithesis" (primarily just for the sake of ending the game with an epic space battle and a confrontation with an evil figure of admittedly-immense power), and having his ultimate fate be determined there, simply wouldn't compare to the extreme significance Malachor V itself carried within the storyline and to the way in which the end of the Exile's training led so directly into the cliffhanger ending.

 

Notice that Visas Marr went to her chamber first to settle her personal stuff and center herself for the battle.  Not AFTER.  Why?  Because it would have been totally out of place to come to terms with it and center herself afterwards instead of before. Just as it is out of place to defeat the biggest bad guy FIRST before understanding fully what happened to you and the true nature of your power.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Okay, look. Something else I noticed is that you seem to be regarding Darth Nihilus as though he was exactly what Kreia seemed to be training the Exile to confront, as though Darth Nihilus was the true threat looming over the galaxy the whole time. He wasn't. Well, not entirely, anyway. Kreia's intent in training the Exile seemed to be a partial hope that he would follow Revan into the Unknown Regions to find him and fight alongside him against the "true" Sith Empire (which was apparently the true threat and an unimaginable evil). So, in a sense, this entire game was about the Exile "settling his personal issues" before actually heading off into battle.

 

Some people seem to have been disappointed by Darth Nihilus' role in the storyline because, after following all the advertising wherein he was prominent, they were surprised by the fact that he wasn't actually the primary antagonist (and most likely by the strange nature of his "dialogue" as well), feeling that he was "only there to throw in another boss battle" in the long-run. Personally, I wasn't at all disappointed by Darth Nihilus' portrayal in the storyline, but, regardless, I don't quite see how having the showdown with him come after the final confrontation with Kreia would've made him suddenly seem anymore important to those who were disappointed. On the contrary, wouldn't the timing only emphasize what it was about him that disappointed people? I mean, it wouldn't've really changed his character or his role in the storyline. It would've made people think Obsidian Entertainment was trying to portray him as the primary antagonist (instead of Kreia), however, and that would've just led to more emphasis on the "flaws" in his character that disappointed people.

 

Anyway, all things considered, if you felt the space battle around Telos and the confrontation with Darth Nihilus was more of a climax than the "return" to Malachor V and the final confrontation with Kreia was, why not simply see it that way? Why not just think of the former as the climax and the latter as the (lengthy) falling action? That would stand as a valid perspective, I think.

[Grant Dempsey]

I would also like to simply comment on (not debate against) another point you brought up, in another post...wherein you said that Darth Nihilus made a better "bad guy" than Kreia...

 

Nihilus, the world killer, makes a far more convincing final bad guy than a muddled, prattling, hypocritical, gimped old hag. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, personally, a major aspect of Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords' storyline that appealed to me was the fact that its primary antagonist (Kreia) wasn't simply a traditional villain in the sense that she was immensely powerful (although she was powerful) and out to conquer or destroy the galaxy for no other particular reason than because she was "evil". The lines of good and evil were blurred in this game, especially with Kreia (and the Jedi Masters), and that really appealed to me. It's actually become sort of a "trend" in story-driven videogames lately, I've noticed; blurring the lines of good and evil. Personally, I actually find it incredibly refreshing for an antagonist's opposing point of view and/or motive(s) to be almost relatable and understandable, sympathetic, for the player, rather than simply "evil" and detached. I much preferred Kreia as a character to Darth Nihilus, for what she brought to the storyline.

 

And, by the way, I apologize, everyone, for my massive post (and for my double-posting). :"> Given the apparent lengths of my replies in this particular discussion, I might just try to refrain from participating a bit, if for no other reason than to spare others. "

[Saberist]

Particularly as regards Nihilous, I agree with most of what you say but you should realize that he is a typical 'male archetype' of evil for it's own sake. While Granny, god bless her black little heart, acts as a more female understandable 'Goddess Encounter' in which evil is used as a vector for /change/ and thus is an impetus towards growth metamorphosis and rebirth. All things which the 'other half' of genderization talks to at a more personal level than it does the male.

 

This being one of the BIG problems inherent to 'gender neutralization' of heroic character arcs in that some of what Revan does and says and almost ALL of what Exile acts out simply doesn't gel with a male mindset. About the only way to get beyond this would have been to have Nihilous either be blood-related in a way which "Mom cannot kill even the most evil of her children..." OR for Kreia to BE Nihilous. Through a set of Costume changes and plot 'disappearances' similar to Palpatine/Sidious' cross-dressing. Given that this kind of primitive moralism (1 dimensional philosophies) is already set in motion for the PT, I doubt if BioSidian's design team found much room for 'improvement' going the latter route.

 

That said, there are other things into which are ugly and in need of major cleanup /besides/ the Major Villains.

 

1. No Mass Shadow Generators!

If only because, if you can do that to a planet with only four ships, then the whole 'Death Star' thing is balloon popped 4 MILLENIA before Sidious 'had the idea'. Yet also because it effectively removes the LIFE AS A CHOICE element from the game. Making Vader's statements about The Force (being more powerful than mere machines) again proven to be a lie of convenience rather than a deep truth. It doesn't matter whether the DEM effect is hostile or beneficial or simply inimical (sp.) to both sides of a moral debate. If you 'crane it in' at the last second, it becomes so obsurdly _plot device artificial_.

 

Let's be clear here too: The whole bit with 'Shielded Circuits' and all the rest is because Star Wars tech includes _atomic dampeners_ (see the Han Solo series of books) which effectively removes most kinds of atomic-reaction type WMD off the board.

 

THIS being why a 'back to the grunt infantry' approach (and Jedi in particular) are more important than machines in a galaxy largely at peace if ruled by terrorism/criminality.

 

2. Exile Is A Catalyst Empath.

In 'Darkover Terms' (which covers Psionics better than most) this means that he forms unconscious links with people and 'wakes up' any latent Force gifiting. It is therefore LOGICAL, since (according to Yoda: "Between you, me, that rock, that tree... Yes, even between the land and the ship...") **Everyone** and anything, living, creates The Force; that Exile should be the one who caused the catastrophe on Malachor V. By magnifying everyone's death-scream into a particularly potent area-Force Breach (plus Death Field plus Force Drain) that was his own attempt to 'shut off the horror'. And that the Council, sensing this and sensing that he could go insane (Darkside, X10) if he kept 'flickering' with Force connection, DID cut his residual connection. And only a few of the Masters realized that it might come back after exiling him. i.e. Give the Jedi Masters some dignity in that they don't punish a man who wasn't anything like Revan (did not participate in the Jedi Insurrection) but only /seemed/ to hold him guilty. For the one crime (breaking the doctrine). While shielding his PTSD shattered conscience from what it could not accept of the real one (loving so much you slaughtered thousands).

 

3. Revan WANTS Exile Back. And Kreia is his own residual (leave behind operative) chess piece in that, while the Jedi Masters see only Exiles use against Nihilous, Reven and She KNOW that Nihilous is 'but the first of many'. i.e. the Sith are coming to US. HER 'motivation' is that of Arron Kae or whoever it was. In that, having been abandoned by the Jedi for breeding. She SOUGHT the Sith and was indeed either apprenticed with or _Mother Of_ Sion and Nihilous. But her own potency had indeed been abbrogated by the birth. And so when they turned on her, she was cast down. Whereupon Revan found her and brought her back, using her Sith Knowledge plus his Precognition to identify the real coming-soon threat. Kreia admires (envies) Revan his discipline in not losing his power and his Jedi lover. But she HATES the Council. Because the war she participated in (I would say it was the Sith Hyperspace war of Jolee's timeframe since that makes the timelines easier to handle) took her lover after they cast her out. And she had nothing left, No Sith, No Jedi, no Husband. THAT is a believable motive for her to want to annihilate the remaining Jedi Masters 'no matter what' their own motivations or change of heart.

 

4. The reason Exile must (K2) CHOOSE which path to take is that the endgame is not that of 'Dark or Light'. But JEDI or REVAN. As he is 'captured' by the True Sith after doing the final battle with Kreia. Or refuses to fight her and thus does what he thinks is best in not BECOMING her pawn. Thus returning to fight the TS from the same standpoint as Revan once did: Elite Jedi Liason/Commander of the fleet. Albeit in a losing battle.

 

 

A K3 STORY PROGRESSION THEN:

If you want a 'cliffhanger', you must give it. And the easiest way to do that is to bring the True Sith into the game at the very end of the second game. Perhaps with a defeated Kreia commiting suicide (lest they strip her mind and figure out who Revan really is, or perhaps just because she fears being broken by them...again). And the player seemingly having no 'good options left' after a long, hard, battle against Nihilous AND Sion.

 

It being important that the 'null' effect of Exile's ability is now _spatially controllable_ to the extent that Kreia taught him how to 'leave only himself on' as he switched off all Force Connections Around Him. Thus Force Breach must be both withheld as a general power. And 'advanced level up' activated to first turn oneself off. Then to turn everyone around you off. And then to form an inverse-bubble in which everyone around you is off but you are still on.

 

Such being the last mode that Kreia gives Exile before her death/defeat as 'all of a sudden' (you get a cut scene with) a MASSIVE organic type starship, just shimmer-blurring into existence within the arctic (Telos) or stormwracked (Malachor) sky.

 

And as a tickle, we get to see what 'True Sith', or at least their dog soldiers are. Probably huge. Possibly skeletal or otherwise 'ghoulish/dead'.

 

THIS would have set up any K3 environment to be an _In Conquest Born_ type event in which the player's ultimate 'point of view' had less to do with the (again, disappointing) personal motivation than it does the way Revan and Exile either team up.

 

Or fight against each other.

 

But only in a fashion which makes it clear that the K3 'suhprahz-suhprahz!' ending is that Revan is indeed the ultimate strategist. Playing both sides against the middle and his 'chose to fall' Darkside path was that of being a dark savior such as Darth Vader would never hope to achieve (i.e. REAL storytelling, not some git being thrown down a well).

 

For what he had Kreia /train/ Exile to do was in fact to kill him and/or cut the Force Bond at a moment where the True Sith were on the verge of being ultimately triumphant. Yet stood terribly vulnerable.

 

Using the JKA Marka Ragnos design ideal as a starting point, one might for instance assume that Revan 'needs' Exile to form a connection between Sith Lords so powerful that they can no longer be contained in Flesh. But must fill an empty vessel.

 

With _Bastilla_ (battle meditation=Matrix Telepath) being that temporary 'ISP Distribution Host' and Revan being the means by which either a Clone Army is acquired or a 'Gathering' (think Slaver Raid) type precognitive hunt occurs for the galaxy's remaining Force Sensitives.

 

And Bastilla (at last a REAL female hero!) is also the one who can permanently annihilate the Sith IF she is killed 'while a null is established' and the Sith Lords not only cannot stay within her but have no means of bridging the gap to ANY living host around them (shades of _Fallen_).

 

For this, Revan must die too. And of course his 'motive' is obvious. Saving Bastilla. Yet his _goal_ is defeat at the hands of Exile. Because if Exile's 'level three null' Force Effect leaves a small bubble around him and Revan then Revan must not be eligible as a host either.

 

The endgame objective? Not annihilation of specific beings but the 'shading' of The Force itself.

 

i.e. Rather than have individual outcomes effect the player status as a Jedi or Sith. The player themselves effects the nature of _THE FORCE_ in a way that allows or prevents these Darkside entities from (for instance) taking all the weak Jedi and other Force Users (the majority of whom Revan allowed slaughtered for a reason) that Revan has Gathered and 'multiservering' them through Bastilla as a function of forming a Sith Army that is driven by one ravening hunger for evil (ala Nihilous) yet is sufficiently individual to not /drain/ The Force locally.

 

While forming the administrative bureacracy by which such a 'renewed' (their current Empire is all but a desert) Sith Empire might flourish.

 

If only in the act of constant corruption and decay.

 

This army would be like unto a cross between Stargate Alien and the 'pod people' in _Body Snatchers_. A hive mind whose individual elements are not as strong as Jedi. But whose combined capability gives them 'communal powers' (one mind, coming togther through many bodies, proximally) far beyond those that any group of individual conduits to The Force could muster without burning out.

 

What's more, by scattering the Darkside energy that the Sith Lords represent, you see the ultimate beginning of the weakening of The Force that will /lead to/ the OT/PT. Due to it's +/- side being splintered far and wide throughout the galaxy.

 

(A function of the Exile Null effect let's say, you cannot destroy that much energy, but you can white-hole distribute it, almost infinitely, explaining why it took so long for the 'next cycle' of good-vs.-evil and why it took the form of a 'shroud' of Darkness rather than a vergence of multiple individuals.)

 

Again, at some point, killing Revan or Bastilla or both must not simply 'redeem' but _give purpose_ to all that came before.

 

So that, say, as pure Force Beings whose 'bond' is that of love which cannot be frayed and scattered with the energy of the evil they contained but did not 'become'.

 

Post-mortem, one sits up and 'awakens' the other so that the Player can discover that each held the other's innermost conscience safe from exposure (expositional moment).

 

Yet, though Very Real as reincarnated beings, the moment of their death has indeed occured and (and through Exile's witnessing), both must leave this plane to become some kind of 'Beyond Jedi' new-definition of Force Construct/Creature (the inverse of the Sith Lords at any rate).

 

They are saved because, as twinned male:female (yin and yang in perfect dynamic-fit balance) spirits they have in unity 'beyond' this life, what The Sith sought to create artificially within it: The perfect preservation of each other's identity.

 

Such also being the 'starting point' for the (Yoda and Ben) ability of Jedi to truly make the "No Death' element of their Code come true. If they choose the path of enduring sacrifice (leaving behind everything but their inmost core beings) the light will cherish what remains and not allow it to lose focus for that IS, ultimately, what it 'most is' (not loss, but preservation, only of the 'good stuff').

 

Rather than Darkness which doesn't refine but rather _conserves_ all elements of this, baser, world elements of psyche which 'explodes on contact' shattering the soul attempting to make the trip with all such baggage as pride and personal indulgence.

 

Things which are only (Narcissistic) reflections of self not it's true center.

 

CONCLUSION:

The 'saddest love story' for all the girls to sigh over.

 

The perfect 'heroic sacrifice' for all the guys to argue about 'how stupid-was-that, they did a personal Alamo by running off the /find/ Santa Anna!'

 

And a murder mystery which keeps the audience glued to the cutscene pages.

 

Because /surely/ something must happen to break the contradiction: that the 'likeliest ones' (the lovers) to survive, are also the most corrupted and undeserving of beneficience.

 

And poor old Exile, 'no matter what he does' he is fated to be Pontius Pilate the guy who gets to vae victus come in from the cold and tell the story like Pat Garret bragging about who shot Billy.

 

But with a (No, reeeeeally, they got away!) wicked gleam in his eye.

 

 

Saberist Out.

[Grant Dempsey]

Actually, I would like to add one point, regarding Malachor V's significance.

 

Not only was it a rather important entity within the storyline and an unresolved piece of the past that haunted the Exile, but it was a lingering part of the past that was significant to several of the other main characters as well (aside from even just Kreia -- to whom Malachor V was also personally significant).

 

Atton Rand was most likely present as a soldier at the final battle of Malachor V since he served in the Mandalorian Wars, and it was, after all, supposedly (according to one of his lines from the cut content) where he tortured and killed several Jedi during the Jedi Civil War. It could certainly serve as a reminder of the atrocities he committed that he was either struggling to atone for or slowly coming to continue.

 

Quite obviously, Malachor V haunted Bao-Dur very much, given that the Mass Shadow Generator was his creation, and it was apparently he who actually "pressed the button" and personally activated it. The Mandalorian Wars altogether haunted him through how they seemed to change him into an angry living weapon.

 

Yusanis' (Handmaiden's father) choice to join the Mandalorian Wars and fight alongside Arren Kae (Handmaiden's mother) was an ultimate representation of disloyalty, a trait which the other Handmaiden Sisters feared would appear in Handmaiden as well. To "add insult to injury" if you will, the final battle of Malachor V was the culmination of the Mandalorian Wars, and it was there that Handmaiden's mother was presumed dead and from there that Handmaiden's father returned seeming like a defeated and broken shell of a man, haunted by what had happened there. I would say Malachor V was significant to her as well.

 

The final battle of Malachor V was where Mira lost all that remained of her family. The tragedy of Malachor V altogether actually seemed to be one that hit her hard, given her relationship with Mandalorians in general.

 

Malachor V also quite obviously carried much personal significance to "Mandalore" (

Canderous

) as well, since it was there that the Mandalorians were finally and utterly beaten by Revan and the forces under his command. It was quite possibly even where he last saw Revan, where Revan "abandoned him" and/or "cast him down" before departing for the Unknown Regions, since that event was said to have occured somewhere along the edges of known space, along the edges of the Outer Rim, which was where Malachor V seemed to be located.

 

Malachor V held no personal connection to Visas Marr, aside from possibly how familiar it may have become to her through her time with Darth Nihilus and the Exile (since she claimed to have "seen" Malachor V through both of them). That was alright, though, because the confrontation with Darth Nihilus was truly the climax of Visas Marr's character development. Even then, she still had a role to play on Malachor V (which was unfortunately cut).

 

Malachor V held no personal connection to Disciple either, aside from possibly how the Exile's choice to join the Mandalorian Wars changed his life. Still, that wouldn't make Malachor V itself personally significant to him at all, I suppose, really. Like Visas Marr, though, he still had a role to play on Malachor V nonetheless (which was also unfortunately cut).

 

And, of course, Malachor V held no personal connection to Hanharr (other than how it may have reminded him of the Shadowlands) or to any of the droids. However, G0-T0 and Bao-Dur's Remote clearly had a role to play on Malachor V nonetheless (as did HK-47 in the cut content). So, too, did Hanharr...well, if Mira was the one that joined the Exile's group, not Hanharr himself, anyway. T3-M4's role to play on Malachor V had much less to do with Malachor V (or even any of the events that occured on Malachor V) and more to do with the cliffhanger ending itself, since he was the one who had to unlock the Ebon Hawk's navicomputer to "open the door" for the Exile following Revan into the Unknown Regions.

 

Anyway, combining all that -- the personal significance Malachor V had to most of the other main characters, the roles that they all played (or would have played in content that was ultimately cut) on Malachor V, the fact that several of them might have died there (in cut content), and so on -- with the personal connection Malachor V (and Kreia) held with the Exile and the significance that the planet itself as an entity carried within the storyline, I think it was truly the right choice to set Malachor V as the storyline's climax (or if you prefer, the lengthy falling action). It was (or could have been) the massive culmination of not just the storyline's main conflict and the Exile's character development, but of so many of the other main characters' individual sidestories and character development as well (along with the culmination of one of the storyline's other major conflicts: Darth Sion and his hunt for the Exile).

 

In comparison, the confrontation with Darth Nihilus only involved the Exile, Visas Marr, and Mandalore, and was really only the culmination of one of the storyline's major conflicts (Darth Nihilus and his rampaging) and of Visas Marr's individual sidestory and character development (and was possibly going to be the culmination of Mandalore's individual sidestory and character development as well in the cut content, although there was potential for his to continue onto Malachor V). None of the other main characters really even could have gotten involved, since Darth Nihilus would've been prone to feeding on (and immediately killing in the process) any other Force Sensitives that were there (as only the Exile and Visas Marr were "immune" since the Exile had already severed his ties to the Force and since Visas Marr was bonded to Darth Nihilus in such a way that feeding on her would've apparently harmed him somehow).

 

Again, though, I'm not saying the events on Malachor V were all handled perfectly. With all the content that was cut (which most likely might include scenes that may not have even made it onto the disc for us to discover), there was much room for improvement as to how the events of Malachor V were presented in the final version of the game, particularly considering all the potential.

 

Those are just my thoughts, though...

[Plano Skywalker]

a few things that would have helped the endgame:

 

* you need an environment suit to walk on Malachor V

(sure seemed that way to me).

 

* Kreia tells you her real name.

 

* Kreia tells you where she was born.

 

* Kreia tells you that one of her parents was Force sensitive.

 

* Kreia tells you about her Jedi mentor and how her mentor was also

kicked out of the Order.

 

* Kreia tells you all about Nihlius and Sion and how they became so freakish.

 

* Kreia tells you about the insectoid race known as the Sith and how Korriban was just on the outer tip of that empire.

 

* Kreia tells you what the racial Sith are doing now and why Revan felt he had to go into the Unknown Regions.

 

* since the Ebon Hawk was lost, Kreia tells you to take her private ship off the planet.

 

* you get a cut screen leaving Malachor V.

 

 

-- almost all of this is dialog folks and it would have made the endgame MUCH more satisfying, IMO.

[Jagthru]

The major addition to this game, and the one that drove the story along, was the fact that you had an extreme influence on those around you. By cutting out all the end-game companion actions and dialogue the whole heart of the game was torn out.

 

Forget stuff like the Droid Factory, not having influence shape how the story ended was what made it unsatisfying. Having Kreia do a "where are they now" future-sight wrap up was way lame.

 

See? You were an exile, but now that you have this cobbled together family of friends/tools surrounding you, you're not an exile anymore. Way better. Speculating, you could have KOTOR3 focus on a recruit to The Exile's newly founded order with orders to help Revan out.

[Darth Coran]

Nihilus, the world killer, makes a far more convincing final bad guy than a muddled, prattling, hypocritical, gimped old hag. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

now,as I have seen this so many times in your posts I can't remain neutral-no stepping on anybody's toes,you keep referring to Kreia as something something hag,you're giving her rude names to make your side sound better,now please,if we may continue this debate with solid arguments rather than insulting the other side's representative?and Drakkonen,I am not insulting you or anybody else here,I just want for you to stop making this into more of an insurance commercial than a debate.Now,after the debate,Juma Juice is on me.

[Drakonnen]

Nihilus, the world killer, makes a far more convincing final bad guy than a muddled, prattling, hypocritical, gimped old hag. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

now,as I have seen this so many times in your posts I can't remain neutral-no stepping on anybody's toes,you keep referring to Kreia as something something hag,you're giving her rude names to make your side sound better,now please,if we may continue this debate with solid arguments rather than insulting the other side's representative?and Drakkonen,I am not insulting you or anybody else here,I just want for you to stop making this into more of an insurance commercial than a debate.Now,after the debate,Juma Juice is on me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I assume you're referring mainly to the hag part, which you take as a "rude name". Here is the dictionary definition of hag:

 

1. An old woman considered ugly or frightful.

2. A witch; a sorceress.

 

So if any single word describes Kreia so well, it is certainly hag.

 

As for the other quoted adjectives:

 

Muddled, as in muddying, confusing or distorting, something she did all game.

 

Prattling, as in chattering away endlessly and even pointlessly at times.

 

Hypocritical, as in she wants the Force to Die, yet uses it without compuncture.

 

Gimped, as in injured, weakened by the loss of her hand.

 

Old, as in...OLD.

 

So, sorry, my description of Kreia isn't simply name calling. Its an entirely accurate portrayal of her characteristics. I want a retraction

 

P.S.  Regarding Kreia's "endless dialogue" during the Exile's final confrontation with her, since when was this game not a primarily dialogue-driven RPG?

 

There is nothing wrong with dialogue itself. However it is a game, which is supposed to be entertaining, and too much dialogue strung together, as with Kreia at the end, can be a bad thing.

 

The action and battles are part of what makes KOTOR2 a game, and seperates it from simply being a bad version of those old, cheesy choose your own adventure books.

 

Y'know, I've heard a lot of people bring that up; the thought that everything Kreia said -- even during the final confrontation -- "could" have been complete and utter lies simply because of her previous "half-truths" and manipulations.

 

I didn't say that she was lying. I said she was essentially a treacherous nutcase who mere moments earlier wanted to see the Force dead. Now you're going to take her advice on going to fight the True Sith using the same Force she wanted to kill, trusting her implicitly yet again after all she's done? Sure, take her facts or leave them, but the Exile should be smart enough to tell Kreia to stuff her advice on what to do with them. After all, if anyone has displayed a lack of stability and sanity, its Kreia.

 

What the scene with Carth (and potentially Bastila) on Telos' Citadel Station did was simply further the mystery of Revan's departure from all known space and really only explore Revan's relationships with those particular characters.

 

It showed the effect Revan's leaving had on his friend (for the LS Revan). Thats why I feel it would have been a better scene to have before any potential choices regarding your own friends, having that fresh in your mind, realizing the effect you're about to have on your allies as you make your decision right afterwards.

 

Saving the galaxy from Darth Nihilus wasn't the storyline's main focus, though. It was one of the storyline's major conflicts, certainly, but not the main conflict. As others have said in this thread before me, the storyline's main focus -- its main conflict -- instead seemed to be the Exile's journey of "rediscovery" through confronting unresolved, lingering pieces of his past (of which Malachor V seemed to be the most haunting), as well as the Exile's relationship with Kreia and the training she put him through.

 

Like Obi Wan says, it all depends upon a certain point of view.

 

Certainly, the Exile goes on a path of rediscovery, but the only reason he came back at all is because of the Sith threat. I don't think rediscovery itself is the main goal. I think the Exile only undergoes that path of rediscovery for a purpose, as a means to another end. Within this chapter of the story, that purpose is to defeat the current Sith threat that has been hunting him. Otherwise, he/she would still be bumbling around somewhere in the Outter Rim.

 

With regard to your Malachor V coments, I've already said, I agree the world is more importan to them all personally. I simply prefer the traditional heroic epic and Star Wars motifs of the heroes becoming whole by settling with the past and the personal issues before the epic final showdown.

 

Anyway, all things considered, if you felt the space battle around Telos and the confrontation with Darth Nihilus was more of a climax than the "return" to Malachor V and the final confrontation with Kreia was, why not simply see it that way?

 

I already made it quite clear I do see it that way. As such, thats the real point, isn't it? That in my opinion, what I see as the bigger climax, should come at the very end, for action purposes, storyline purposes and for leaving people with a better feeling at the end of the game.

 

Would that follow a similar pattern to KOTOR1 and other tradional Star Wars stories? Sure. That doesn't mean its the same story as them or that it loses any of the storyline's elements that way, it just makes for a better set up and progression. People like to knock KOTOR1, but for the amount of flack people attribute to it, it still has the nice shiny "Game of the Year" on the box, something that this game will never have, and wouldn't have even if the ending had been finished in its current format, in my opinion. It also tends to beat KOTOR2 handily with regard to enjoyment in the polls I've seen.

 

Its not really a debate that will ever settle. You like it the way it is, I think it would be better much better in the other format. There are people who agree with both sides.

 

Either way, it won't be changed, and we've all lost out already due to the lack of any real ending, at least until such time as such a real ending gets modded in.

[kalimeeri]

<<Certainly, the Exile goes on a path of rediscovery, but the only reason he came back at all is because of the Sith threat. I don't think rediscovery itself is the main goal. I think the Exile only undergoes that path of rediscovery for a purpose, as a means to another end. Within this chapter of the story, that purpose is to defeat the current Sith threat that has been hunting him. Otherwise, he/she would still be bumbling around somewhere in the Outter Rim.>>

 

Exile doesn't come back on his own. He may not ever have come back at all, but for 'circumstances beyond his control.' With battle stress of this kind, he's all about avoidance. Kreia took on the job of gradually making him face the factors that caused his flight in the first place, but if she hadn't manipulated, he probably wouldn't have listened to her. That's what makes the story, what it's all about.

[Marka Ragnos]

I've really been pondering how the whole end part of the game went wrong, recently.  Not just the fact that there really was no ending (hell, even if there was a real ending there was still no epic feel at the end). 

 

For me, KOTOR2, just didn't have the Epic feel that KOTOR1 had, and I think I figured out why it left me with that impression...

 

I think where Obsidian went wrong was the order of the bosses and final worlds: putting Nihilus and Telos first, then Sion and Traya on Malachor second.

 

The whole game it seemed like Nihilus was built up as the baddest dude on the block.  A planet consumer who wiped out scores of Jedi.  Yet he was the third to last boss (Not to mention ridiculously easy to beat).  After the fight with him at Telos and the whole space battle raging on, thats when you go to boring and dreary Malachor and face down the other two.  It was all down hill from there.

 

Obsidian should have made it so you went to Malachor FIRST.  After learning nothing of real value from the Jedi Masters and Atris on Telos, we should have them left Telos and went straight to Malachor to take down Traya, there you would  defeart Sion, and meet Traya like you're supposed to.

 

You fight her of course, and mortally wound her, but before she goes Traya has real information for you, one final lesson from master to apprentice, and not just endless rambling: How wield the Exile's true power which is how to defeat Nihilus.  Nihilus feeds off the Force after all, and the Exile is the one person who was able to shut himself off from it, and she teaches him how to turn it off and on like a lightswitch, and how to use that against Nihilus.  She also has your old lightsaber for you which she took from Atris, and gives it to you before she dies.

 

THEN you leave Malachor and head back to Telos once traya has informed you Nihilus is going to strike, and where the Telosians, the Onderonians, the Republic and the Sith all are at, waging their huge space battle, the TRUE climax of the game.  Then you proceed from there as you would have earlier, boarding the Ravager to face down the true baddest of the bad in the game, saving him for the very last like you should. 

 

To make the final battle better, the more Force you use on Nihilus, the more he feeds off it and the stronger her gets, so to defeat him the Exile must shut himself off from the Force entirely once again (although he can turn it back on afterwards).  It makes far more sense to me.

 

After that, you leave the Ravager and that is when talk to Admiral Carth, who further seals the deal about convincing you of the need to follow Revan and determine his fate, or join him in the battle.  You settle things with your party members (if there were a real ending that is), then head off alone to hopefully find Revan and fight against the "true Sith."

 

Overall, I think this would have done a much better job of building things to a climax so that the climax happens at the end, with all the various factions present in the heat of a big battle in true Star Wars fashion, rather than climaxing early, then dragging along all down hill from there for another couple of hours through the dreary and downright boring Malachor.

 

With the Climax at the end as it should be, it would leave gamers far more satisfied, and the lasting impression would be of the Epic struggle at the very end, not the tedious romp through a boring world and an extremely long dialogue tree.

 

Anyone else agree?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

but you're completely changing the story. cause it seems that nihilus is now the main baddie when kreia/darth traya is the person you really need to kill.

[Marka Ragnos]

a few things that would have helped the endgame:

 

* you need an environment suit to walk on Malachor V

(sure seemed that way to me).

 

*  Kreia tells you her real name.

 

*  Kreia tells you where she was born.

 

*  Kreia tells you that one of her parents was Force sensitive.

 

*  Kreia tells you about her Jedi mentor and how her mentor was also

kicked out of the Order.

 

*  Kreia tells you all about Nihlius and Sion and how they became so freakish.

 

*  Kreia tells you about the insectoid race known as the Sith and how Korriban was just on the outer tip of that empire.

 

*  Kreia tells you what the racial Sith are doing now and why Revan felt he had to go into the Unknown Regions.

 

*  since the Ebon Hawk was lost, Kreia tells you to take her private ship off the planet.

 

*  you get a cut screen leaving Malachor V.

 

 

-- almost all of this is dialog folks and it would have made the endgame MUCH more satisfying, IMO.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

some of those like where kreia is born and whether or not she had a force sensitive parent and her mentor are completely pointless. it has no effect on you whatsoever.