Mandalorian Wars

[SAkida]

how can it be memorial when his ghost appears there?When his blade is there?

[Drakron]

Thats not Naga Sahdow, its Ajunta Pall.

[SAkida]

Oh crap :D

[Bulgaroctonus]

Ooo,the discussion amplified alot. So basicly there are several fronts of discussion here as I see them:

 

1)You all went talking about the 'true sith',but when I said about that contradiction I spoke about the sith (not the true sith) as they are seen in kotor.

 

The fact is that

a)The Sith under Revan's command (*not* the true sith),are literaly responsible for training the mandalorians (or,rather 'breaking' them),and helping them (the mandalorians) fight the republic (according to kotor 2 and fiting most of the kotor 1 war) (revan was also fighting the republic,but for a different agenda,as you said before);

 

b)Paradoxal,Revan went to war initially to fight AGAINST the mandalorians and ended up destroying them all at Malachor V.

This contradicts  with a) for several reasons.The most important is that Revan became 'dark' before the destruction of malachor V (and he 'saw' the *true sith*  )therefore started the war against the republic,but,if you look at a) and b)  then he/she simultaneous fought the mandalorians and helped them (for a limited time) (an year if my calculations are correct).THIS IS A GAP IN THE STORYLINE LOGIC.

 

I know that my english isn't that good,but please,pay attention.There is a big contradiction here between kotor 1 and 2.

 

 

2)Ok,the mass shadow generator couldn't be powered up because bao-dur lost his arm...so?Then how come all died?

 

3)The tomb of naga shadow is on koriban....the home of the true sith lords...QED.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Alright. Revan never trained the Mandalorians. The Sith troops never trained the Mandalorians. The Sith troops in KotOR are simply Republic troops who decided to follow Revan or people who joined Revan's cause. They aren't Sith in any sense of the word. Think of it like the American Civil War, where you had Federalists vs Confederates. Same nation, two factions. The Sith Empire under Revan and Malak is closer to a faction of a Civil War, hence the name the Jedi Civil War, than a war between two separate nations. Canderous hints at the True Sith Empire in KotOR by telling Revan that the Sith came to the Mandalorians and told/tricked them to attack the Republic. So, the Mandalorians did.

 

The True Sith, as I understand it, saw two outcomes. A) the Mandalorians attack, and the Jedie do nothing, and the Mandalorians crush the Republic and then the Jedi, leaving the True Sith to gather up the pieces or B) Some of the Jedi decide to help the Republic defeat the Mandalorians (because without the Jedi the Republic is lost, and the True Sith know this) This will create a divide in the Jedi Order over what the duties of a Jedi are. This will leave the Jedi weak and divided, and thus open to the attack of the True Sith.

 

What they didn't anticipate was Revan. Revan decided to lead the charge, and managed to go out and crush the Mandalorians, with non-crushing losses. During the course of the war, Revan found Malachor V. He knew the Mandalorians hated the world and considered it forbidden, and sought to find out why, and how to use it against them. It was there that he discovered the existance of the True Sith and the cause of the Mandalorian War, and probably some clues as to the existance of the Star Forge, or at least the Star Maps. He then realized that he would have to defeat the Mandalorians and then conquer the Republic in order to unify it against the True Sith.

 

So, Revan brought the Republic fleet as bait for the Mandalorians to Malachor V, where the war came to its conclusion and the Mandalorians were crushed and scattered. It was at Malachor that he was able to turn the Jedi that had come with him to the Dark Side. He then took Malak and sought out the Star Maps, and discovered the Star Forge. He then built the fleet and refounded the "Sith Empire," that would conquer the Republic and unite it.

 

Thats it for now. Hopefully its cleared up.

[SAkida]

Much of what you said makes sense,thanks.

 

I said that the sith trained the mandalorians,because that's what they say anytime...you know the "Stop trying your jedi tricks on me,I was trained by the sith to resist !" that many mandalorians say when u use force persuade on them...

 

And anyway,this is what ATTON says too in the end if you are DS female and 100 influence on him...

[Drakron]

Unless OE is re-writting BioWare storyline ...

 

Revan ended the war in Mandalor, after it he gone looking for the Star Forge as stated in SW:KotOR.

 

BioWare made a simple story, Revan seen the Star Forge as a tool to help against the Mandalorians and during its search he fallen into the dark side, after Mandalor he continued to look for it intending to use it against the Republic.

 

There is nothing more to it, I am growing a little sick over this "Darth Revan, the anti-hero" revisionist history ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Darth Frog]

The True Sith, as I understand it, saw two outcomes. 

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sounds plausible overall but there's a snag. The True Sith have died out, and the place where they used to live is the same as that used by the ersatz Sith later. Korriban was the spiritual center of the original Sith empire.

 

http://www.darklordsofsith.net/sith/riseofthesith.htm

 

So if the True Sith are the unknown menace then it must be a faction that fled to the unknown regions, but by the same token it could just as well have been any other faction, including remnants of the Rakatan, or the angry spirits of the Gizka that bit the dust in KotOR I.

[Naso]

Where would these sith be? It looks like the Republic has planets all over the galaxy, so if there are ones not explored, they are just randomly interspersed, not some continguous "empire". If the Republic ever ran into the true sith before, then they would know where they are now. Or are we just supposed to assume that there's a large chunk of the galaxy where no one ever goes? If that link saying the republic never knew the sith empire existed is true, when and how does that change before the movie time?

[Bulgaroctonus]

The point is that there are large unexplored chunks of the galaxy unexplored because its very hard to keep exploring. One can't simply jump to hyperspace, because they could run into an asteroid field. Exploring the Unknown Regions is very slow work.

[jedipodo]

To be honest, the idea of the threat of the "True Sith" isn't very plausible if you look at the recent history of the "True Sith" (narrated by the "Tales Of The Jedi" series).

 

The so-called "True Sith" were primitive people.

The last survivors of the original Sith Lords fled to Yavin and Onderon and spent their retirement years on this planets.

 

They died as remorseless and barbarous "kings" and were buried by their subjects.

That's the story.

 

But I can be totally wrong, and Traya tells the truth. Goodness(GL) knows...

[The Great Phantom]

Kreia never said that the True Sith were actual members of the Sith Species. When the Sith led by Naga Sadow retreated from the Republic, they ran right into Ludo Kressh's forces. Then the Republic showed up and finished the job in the crossfire.

 

Now, knowing what we do of the Sith, and the fact that they have a tendency to somehow survive a massive all-anhialating (sp?) war, who's to say that some lucky Dark Jedi rising amongst the Sith (the Species and Dark Jedi lived together as an Empire), didn't survive? Just a thought... It seems plausible if you really go into detail, which I don't feel like doing.

[Drakron]

Actually it does not.

 

The Sith Empire was more that one planet and the Sith had a very defined chain of command.

 

There could only be one Dark Lord of the Sith, when Marka Ragnos died the title gone to Naga Shadow that decided to battle the Republic with Ludo Kressh leading the fraction that did not wanted to open start a war with the Republic that soon.

 

As you pointed out both groups destroyed each other and with the cast system there was nothing else but total obidience to their Lords.

 

The Sith survived the destruction of the Sith Empire and the Sith Race since the Republic ignored Korriban (that was just a tomb world) and the exitence of Sith ghosts.

 

The first Dark Lord of theSith after the Sith Empire was Freedom Nadd, a former Jedi that learned the Sith knowledge from none other that Naga Shadow spirit and pretty much all other Sith Lords learned from Sith Ghosts at some point.

 

Nothing really stops using a Sith Ghost as the mastermind and end boss ... beats ressurecting a race that was dominated by lossers.

[The Great Phantom]

But Nadd had a Master.

 

He fled his Master, because he did not want to fight for his power... He was a coward, in my opinion. Read the TOTJ, they clear a lot of junk up. If you have read them, read them again. They're pretty good.

 

Edit: Sith Master. He was the Dark Lord's apprentice, and did not want to fight for that title, so he fled. There, that make sooo much more sense.

[jedipodo]

Kreia never said that the True Sith were actual members of the Sith Species.  When the Sith led by Naga Sadow retreated from the Republic, they ran right into Ludo Kressh's forces. Then the Republic showed up and finished the job in the crossfire.

 

Now, knowing what we do of the Sith, and the fact that they have a tendency to somehow survive a massive all-anhialating (sp?) war, who's to say that some lucky Dark Jedi rising amongst the Sith (the Species and Dark Jedi lived together as an Empire), didn't survive? Just a thought... It seems plausible if you really go into detail, which I don't feel like doing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You have a point. But why do Kreia and (maybe) Revan see that great danger in this few remnants? Though the Sith Empire is history, it's most powerful leaders, the ancient Sith Lords, were killed or died in peace on Yavin/Onderon.

 

I'm looking forward to Kotor3 to see who is even worse for the galaxy than Revan, Ragnos, Kressh, Kun, Malak, Kreia, Sion, Nihilus, etc...? Perhaps Palpatine, so we can say: Now the circle is complete.

[The Great Phantom]

I never could draw a perfect circle... "

 

According to Kreia, the ability to suck the Force out of things was an ancient Sith technique... An army of Nihilus's? Only on a much grander scale, and not the nameless entity that starved itself out just to be killed fighting someone with a similar ability.

[Darth Frog]

Speaking of Nihilus: on one hand he was able to annihilate the life of an entire planet (the Miraluka planet, forgot the name) which means his power must be really fearsome. On the other hand he could not even snuff two simple Jedi (Exile and Visas). That's a bit of a contradiction.

 

Apart from that I found Kreia's explanation regarding the dangers of the Force depletion techniques rather convincing.

[jedipodo]

I never could draw a perfect circle...  "

 

According to Kreia, the ability to suck the Force out of things was an ancient Sith technique... An army of Nihilus's? Only on a much grander scale, and not the nameless entity that starved itself out just to be killed fighting someone with a similar ability.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Nice idea.

 

I think a good task for the developers of Kotor3 will be to quantify the strength of this technique.

 

The original Sith Lords didn't use this draining power once in TOTJ. Though you could call it a super weapon if you consider the damage Nihilus caused on Katarr.

It seems that nobody - not even the toughest Jedi masters - could resist his force powers.

 

Oh, and, the Exile was supposed to have the same ability, but did he study old Sith teachings...?

 

This makes me believe that Nihilus' draining ability was born during the events on Malachor, and hasn't been ancient Sith knowledge.

 

I'll stop now, because the more I think about it the more I hate this draining nonesense. "

[The Great Phantom]

You should look into the post in the Storyline Discussion titled 'darth Nihilus'.

 

I posted one of my theories on Nihilus's origin, however invalid it may turn out to be. It has proof, too.

[The Great Phantom]

I never could draw a perfect circle...  "

 

According to Kreia, the ability to suck the Force out of things was an ancient Sith technique... An army of Nihilus's? Only on a much grander scale, and not the nameless entity that starved itself out just to be killed fighting someone with a similar ability.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Nice idea.

 

I think a good task for the developers of Kotor3 will be to quantify the strength of this technique.

 

The original Sith Lords didn't use this draining power once in TOTJ. Though you could call it a super weapon if you consider the damage Nihilus caused on Katarr.

It seems that nobody - not even the toughest Jedi masters - could resist his force powers.

 

Oh, and, the Exile was supposed to have the same ability, but did he study old Sith teachings...?

 

This makes me believe that Nihilus' draining ability was born during the events on Malachor, and hasn't been ancient Sith knowledge.

 

I'll stop now, because the more I think about it the more I hate this draining nonesense. "

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

:ph34r:

 

According to Kreia, the Exile's use of it was born out of necessity. Once again, check out my Nihilus theory.

 

Again, like Kreia said: The Ancient Sith Lords (the ones with tombs on Korriban) are much more powerful than the current ones. Something about toys...

[Solothores]

Somebody made a statement about the sith not having lightsaber weapons which is wrong and right if we stay true to EU content. In the prologue of Golden Age of the Sith, the first schism between the jedis, dark and light, was fought with lightsabers.

 

at least we have a picture underlaying the first schism which basically were crossed lightsabers. There is a picture as well showing a jedi with lightsaber in front of kneeing siths. Later on, in a recall of the sith by Marka Ragnos we see pictures of the schism again this time fought with normal melee weapons. So its kinda confusing. A reason why those EU stuff is...

 

Also later on when the story starts with the funeral ceremony of Marka Ragnos, we see that none of the Sith Lords posesses a lightsaber.

 

The central World of the Sith is not Korriban but Ziost, it was considered as neutral ground at which the "only" Dark Lord reigns and the sith lords do the business for their empire. I would consider this a place that might turn out harbouring the "true sith" pointed out within kotor2.

 

Other local points of interest are the primary world Khar Delba and its moon Khar Shian, on which Naga Sadows Fortress was located on. Another one was Rhelg, which was the world of Ludo Kressh. Then there was Ch'Hodos a world of a Sith Lord named Shar Dakhan.

 

In Golden Age of the Sith there were more than at least nine sith lords next to Naga which was ceremonied as the Dark Lord. It is stated that each of the sith lord controls at least about a dozen worlds. So makes the Sith Empire at least a couple of hundred worlds strong a millennia before Exar Kun & Co.

 

The Sith themselves as people split through interbreed into at least a slave & engineer class, as well as in a warrior class, which the massassi were the most famous of. The massassi were towards the fall of the sith lord loyal to naga sadow. No information was shared if some of them remained within the sith empire, when Naga Sadow stranded on Yavin4.

 

Interesting Side Note: Even within the Sith teachings old forbidden ways & techniques existed...

 

Some Force used by Naga Sadow:

"Here in my meditation Chamber I can see the galaxy in my mind's eye, I can visualize vast armies, powerful fleets, invincible warriors... and with sith arts, my imagination can make them real."

 

Also he forced solar flare outbursts on several stars with his sith magic.

 

Cheers

Solo

[Eduardo]

Kreia never said that the True Sith were actual members of the Sith Species.  When the Sith led by Naga Sadow retreated from the Republic, they ran right into Ludo Kressh's forces. Then the Republic showed up and finished the job in the crossfire.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Kreia said that both Korriban and Malachor V were outposts in the fringes of the True Sith Empire, that were later abandoned (will try to look for the exact quote later). Korriban was a part of the old Sith Empire, so it can be infered that the Sith race are the true Sith.

 

If that is the case, Revan had more contact with a member of the True Sith via his interaction with the ghost of Ajunta Pall.

 

As said above, acording to the first TOTJ series, Nadd wasn't a Dark Lord, and he fled his master (which was later revealed in the Essential Chronology to have been Naga Sadow after being reawakened from hybernation). Sadow's exact fate is unknown. What is sure is that he didn't left the same way he came, as his ship was still on Yavin for Exar Kun to find.

[The Great Phantom]

For all we know, the Species could be dead. Hey, I'm trying to appease the critics out there. It could just be some of the old Dark Jedi Overlords of the Empire. That would make them much more dangerous, wouldn't it?

 

To all you critics: the Star Wars Universe is about ancient forces coming back when everyone said and believed them to be dead. Just pointing that out.

 

BTW: Solothores, thank you for pulling in Ziost. That was a refreshing breath of the True Sith Empire.

[Darth_Radnor]

at least we have a picture underlaying the first schism which basically were crossed lightsabers. There is a picture as well showing a jedi with lightsaber in front of kneeing siths. Later on, in a recall of the sith by Marka Ragnos we see pictures of the schism again this time fought with normal melee weapons. So its kinda confusing. A reason why those EU stuff is...

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Exactly. Why do Sadow and Kreesh duel with swords when the original dark Jedi used lightsabers (not protosabers, but lightsabers). 1 major inconsistency of ToTJ.

 

Another inconsistency is when Odan Urr's companion Jedi (I forget his name) uses a lightsaber (no wire/powerpack) in Issue 0 of Golden Age of the Sith.

[Ulicus]

The True Sith Empire aside for a moment (which I find perfectly plausible- after all, it was Naga Sadow and his followers who fled to Yavin- *not* the entire Sith Empire... and I doubt Ludo had the ENTIRE Sith Empire with him in his fleet when the Republic came and devastated it)

 

I don't like that just because Revan wanted to fight the True Sith and save the galaxy as his *intial* motivation that people think he's "good really" or "didn't fall to teh dark side".

 

Whilst I'm sure it was his original intention to; "use the sith teachings against the True Sith, fight fire with fire. Bring about a New Order of Sith to beat them." we all know that the path to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

An excerpt from my *revised* "Oversight" fanfic (I wrote it ages ago and updated it to match KotOR2- this isn't a plug, it just sums up my thoughts on Darth Revan pre-mindwipe) pretty much explains my thoughts on Revan's motivations:

 

"The Dark Lord could not help but feel his usual dark calm disturbed by a rush of anger towards the beings that had sought to stunt his development as a Jedi so. The very people who had all but ignored the plight of this Republic - that they now fought so valiantly to

[The Great Phantom]

O.k. Found a couple of errors in a couple of posts...

 

The Sith'ari is the Sith version of the Chosen One... that is general concencus. Therefore, Anakin destroys the Sith, making it stronger, and is the Sith'ari. just pointing that out. other than that, it sounds dandy.

 

Ajunta Pall was NOT a True Sith. He was among the first Dark Jedi that fled, according to his tale. They discovered some 'Dark Power', which was assumed to be the Star Forge. However, Revan discovered that the Star Forge would only destroy them in the long run... hmmm... perhaps the Star Forge could have been the Power that destroyed the 'Dark Lords' in the beginning???

 

I'm going to replay Korriban in Kotor I and check on the plausibility...