Just finished TSL

[Gargantuan]

I heard of some mod that one can download from some KOTOR fansite that makes the game very difficult. http://www.starwarsknights.com/

[213374U]

Yep. There are I think 2 different difficulty mods out there right now, but they both need some polishing IMO. Beancounter's Hardcore TSL mod implemented an experimental AI tweaking (that provided feats and such) but unfortunately it's disabled by default and unless you can compile scripts, there's no way of enabling it that I know of. Unfortunately his mod just makes the enemies tougher, and gives them some additional resistances, which IMO renders Force powers useless. But hey, it's better than the game as it is now.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

How do you define hard in an RPG?

 

How many times you have to reload ? Whether it's possible to build a character that can't finish the game no matter what?

[dabise]

But to solve that problem, don't use flurry or any special attack or force powers....won't be so easy then.

Uh, it shouldn't be up to the player to artificially rebalance the game, you know. That's the game designers' job.

 

Again, you say that games are for entertainment and that's all what they're for. Let's see how this is a little fallacy, shall we?

 

Games are for entertainment and that's all they are for. Movies are for entertainment, and that's all they are for. Thus, games are movies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Games are used for military training too

[Halo343GS]

But to solve that problem, don't use flurry or any special attack or force powers....won't be so easy then.

Uh, it shouldn't be up to the player to artificially rebalance the game, you know. That's the game designers' job.

 

Again, you say that games are for entertainment and that's all what they're for. Let's see how this is a little fallacy, shall we?

 

Games are for entertainment and that's all they are for. Movies are for entertainment, and that's all they are for. Thus, games are movies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Games are used for military training too

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

yup. like the Americas Army game...

 

i think HAlo 2 is actually easier. lol

[Von Manstein]

I don't find games entertaining if they are too easy. I find them hollow excuses to make a cinematic experience. If I wanted that I would watch a movie. I want a game like K2 to have not only the good storyline and characters and length, but also to be challenging when it should be. That is, boss fights and mini-boss duels. In K2 all I did was run around Force Lightning everything. I wish the developers would exchange the hordes of pushover troops for a couple of elite challenging troopers or a Dark Jedi or a bounty hunter or something. I want a challenge, not to run around obliterating everything. That makes the game almost pointless to "play". I might as well watch it.

 

Furthermore, if I have to constantly formulate ways to make the game harder for myself by not using shields or picking Force Pick-daisies or something, then I want nothing to do with that game. It's the developers job to balance the game, not mine.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Roleplaying games have always been easy. The idea of a roleplaying game is to have the character do the work and the player to go along for the ride. The characters stats and abilities are worth far more than how fast you can press X,Y,Z in the right combo.

 

If your character is effective then you will "watch" a lot of the time. Thats the very nature of RPGs. If you want a challenge the only way to do it is to build a less effective, or even inefective character and thats getting less and less possible as designers strive to make the game playable for anyone, no previous experience required.

 

Ninja Gaiden is the biggest challenge I can recall since 8 bit days. Not an RPG but if your looking for hard, you wont go far wrong with it.

 

It is the designers job to balance the game. But it is not the designers job to balance the game for you, or me or any other individual. The people on the boards for the most part represent those with a long RPG background. Making a game "we" found hard would totally alienate the casual consumer through total frustration.

[Glacius]

Well, Final Fantasy X is a mainstream RPG that's more challenging than most for the average player who follows normal game progression in the game. Additionally, there are hidden bosses that are difficult to beat even if the characters have maxed stats.

 

Of course, "difficult" in a turn-based game like FF usually means a long battle where the player is constantly under pressure to heal and keep his/her party alive, while whittleing away the enemy's health. Once you know exactly what to do, then it all just takes time. (The exception is the occasional cheap boss who deal unpreventable instant death and requires luck to beat).

 

Regardless, the game can seem difficult to most players, even experienced ones.

 

People buy games for many reasons, but ultimately the casual gamer buys a game for entertainment. Now, entertainment is relative to the player; some may think a challenging game is fun, while others think an immersive game is fun.

 

Those who favor a somewhat engaging and interactive role-playing experience, will generally favor KOTOR 2 more. Remember, role-playing isn't all about battles and fighting.

[Jedi_Master_Darkor]

How do you define hard in an RPG?

 

How many times you have to reload ? Whether it's possible to build a character that can't finish the game no matter what?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

How do you define hard? The number of times your PC gets killed.

[213374U]

Roleplaying games have always been easy. The idea of a roleplaying game is to have the character do the work and the player to go along for the ride. The characters stats and abilities are worth far more than how fast you can press X,Y,Z in the right combo.

That is a simplistic comparison that doesn't hold any water and you know it. In RPGs it's not a matter of pushing buttons but a matter of needing to plan your battles, use some sort of strategy, find the weakness in the AI's tactics, you name it. You can do that as slowly as you want thanks to the pause function.

 

 

If your character is effective then you will "watch" a lot of the time. Thats the very nature of RPGs. If you want a challenge the only way to do it is to build a less effective, or even inefective character and thats getting less and less possible as designers strive to make the game playable for anyone, no previous experience required.

False. If your character is effective they will be able to deal with problems in a wider range of ways. As it is now, your character will be effective no matter what you do. If you just push a button and everything in your way gets slaughtered no matter what, there is something seriously wrong in the game. And of course, I refuse to believe that casual gamers are just cattle when it comes to skills.

 

 

It is the designers job to balance the game. But it is not the designers job to balance the game for you, or me or any other individual. The people on the boards for the most part represent those with a long RPG background. Making a game "we" found hard would totally alienate the casual consumer through total frustration.

False again. You see, that's what difficulty settings are for. There's no shame in playing the game in easy if you are getting your ass handed to you every second. But again, if no matter the difficulty setting you can deal with endbosses in two freaking rounds, there is something seriously wrong.

 

I can understand that people like easy games, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But don't try to tell me that it is impossible to make a game which has difficulty settings to make it appealing to all kinds of gamers.

[Glacius]

I agree that Obsidian could have implemented the "Difficult" setting better. The least they could have done was dramatically increase the stats of all enemies, especially bosses. I would be less disappointed if the bosses only had triple health.

 

With KOTOR 2's battle system and game engine, there are severe limitations on what kind of strategies the AI can adopt. It'd be nice to see the AI use some of the hit and run tactics that PCs are so capable of (especially the ranged weapons players who hit+run against melee enemies). For example, enemies w/ melee weapons should stop chasing the player repeatedly like an idiot when the PC has blasters and keeps running away.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Well, Final Fantasy X is a mainstream RPG that's more challenging than most for the average player who follows normal game progression in the game.  Additionally,  there are hidden bosses that are difficult to beat even if the characters have maxed stats.

 

Of course, "difficult" in a turn-based game like FF usually means a long battle where the player is constantly under pressure to heal and keep his/her party alive, while whittleing away the enemy's health.  Once you know exactly what to do, then it all just takes time. (The exception is the occasional cheap boss who deal unpreventable instant death and requires luck to beat).

 

Regardless, the game can seem difficult to most players, even experienced  ones.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That really only has ever applied to the bonus sections of the FF games. FF is just as easy to level yourself above the curve as most other games.

[Meshugger]

Well, Final Fantasy X is a mainstream RPG that's more challenging than most for the average player who follows normal game progression in the game.  Additionally,  there are hidden bosses that are difficult to beat even if the characters have maxed stats.

 

Of course, "difficult" in a turn-based game like FF usually means a long battle where the player is constantly under pressure to heal and keep his/her party alive, while whittleing away the enemy's health.  Once you know exactly what to do, then it all just takes time. (The exception is the occasional cheap boss who deal unpreventable instant death and requires luck to beat).

 

Regardless, the game can seem difficult to most players, even experienced  ones.

 

People buy games for many reasons, but ultimately the casual gamer buys a game for entertainment.  Now, entertainment is relative  to the player; some may think a challenging game is fun, while others think an immersive game is fun.

 

Those who favor a somewhat engaging and interactive role-playing experience, will generally favor KOTOR 2 more.  Remember, role-playing isn't all about battles and fighting.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

"Zanmato"

 

Eventhough the bosses were hard to beat, and as you said, it just takes more time to defeat them, it wasn't dreadfully boring.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

That is a simplistic comparison that doesn't hold any water and you know it. In RPGs it's not a matter of pushing buttons but a matter of needing to plan your battles, use some sort of strategy, find the weakness in the AI's tactics, you name it. You can do that as slowly as you want thanks to the pause function.

 

False. If your character is effective they will be able to deal with problems in a wider range of ways. As it is now, your character will be effective no matter what you do. If you just push a button and everything in your way gets slaughtered no matter what, there is something seriously wrong in the game. And of course, I refuse to believe that casual gamers are just cattle when it comes to skills.

 

False again. You see, that's what difficulty settings are for. There's no shame in playing the game in easy if you are getting your ass handed to you every second. But again, if no matter the difficulty setting you can deal with endbosses in two freaking rounds, there is something seriously wrong.

 

I can understand that people like easy games, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But don't try to tell me that it is impossible to make a game which has difficulty settings to make it appealing to all kinds of gamers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sorry but your wrong. In an RPG stats have always made up for player abilities, even in the "good old days" a party with 18's across the board could romp home where a party with 3's would almost certainly fail even in the hands of a very experienced player.

 

Umm if you powergame your character the game will be easy. Thats hardly rocket science. If the game were created for only powergamed characters , well bye bye your chances of finishing the game without such a character.

KOTOR is just so easy to powergame you can do it accidently.

 

I havnt played a challenging RPG in years. I just gave up on the whole idea and play for the story.

[Shalynn Lors]

You are right when saying the exile is really powerful. I experienced this also. In KotOR 1 the main character was often only there to receive the hits and your party members behind you with ranged weapons made the kills. Revan only tried to hit the enemies but did not much damage to them. In KotOR 2 almost every lightsaber strike is a success. With master flurry nothing can stop you.

 

My guess is they knew about the situation in KotOR 1 and tried to change this. It's the main character after all. They have just gone a little bit too far.

 

Also the difference between easy/medium/hard should be a greater one. That's why we have three of them, right? Easy for beginners and Hard should really make you sweat - if it's too hard you could still switch back to medium, so no problem.

[Glacius]

I havnt played a challenging RPG in years. I just gave up on the whole idea and play for the story.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You could try Neverwinter Nights. It's more challenging than KOTOR atleast.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

You could try Neverwinter Nights.  It's more challenging than KOTOR atleast.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Excuse me while I laugh

 

Ah thats better. Once you dump your henchmen with the IQ of a rock NwN becomes rather easy.

 

My advice for KOTOR II is simple dont use any upgrades. Just sticking to the base items makes the game more interesting. The bosses will actually have time to throw some force powers at you before they die.

[Von Manstein]

My biggest problem is that I haven't needed to use strategy once in the game. No pre-planning or innovative ways to defeat enemies. Just buff, thrown force powers, and mow down with your saber. Rinse and repeat.

 

BGII had a good deal of strategy, especially against Firkraag and enemies like lichs. You needed to use your whole party, and be using a huge amount of magic powers effectively and intelligently. At the moment the Knights games are in danger of becoming too RPG-lite. There is no reason why it can't reach levels of strategy similar to BGII and maintain the Star Wars feel.

[213374U]

Sorry but your wrong. In an RPG stats have always made up for player abilities, even in the "good old days" a party with 18's across the board could romp home where a party with 3's would almost certainly fail even in the hands of a very experienced player.

Well, I don't know what RPGs you have played, but in the ones I played, just 'shooting 'em in the ass' wouldn't do the trick. The GM's task is to create a challenging adventure for whatever party he's hosting a game for. Yes, even if that party is an all-18s. If the GMs you played with were unable to deal with your uber stats, then sorry pal, but they were bad GMs. There's more to being a GM than just storytelling.

 

Since in CRPGs there is no GM, that's what difficulty settings are for. Easy for the newbs/casual gamer, normal for the RPG vets, and difficult for those with a taste for reloading often and hardcore powergamers. That is the minimum one can expect. But in K2, the difference between the different difficulty settings is next to zero. Why?

 

 

Umm if you powergame your character the game will be easy. Thats hardly rocket science. If the game were created for only powergamed characters , well bye bye your chances of finishing the game without such a character.

KOTOR is just so easy to powergame you can do it accidently.

You are still dodging the matter of the different skill settings. If those were implemented properly, there would be no need for powergaming in the lower levels, while it could be from useful to necessary in the higher ones.

 

It's not being done right now, I agree. It's been a long time since I played a challenging RPG, too. But impossible? You have yet to provide a valid reasoning that proves what I'm proposing unfeasible.

[kefka]

Sorry but your wrong. In an RPG stats have always made up for player abilities, even in the "good old days" a party with 18's across the board could romp home where a party with 3's would almost certainly fail even in the hands of a very experienced player.

Quite true, but in the 'good old days' you usually kept your stats from start to finish - i.e. what you rolled. These days, it's all about boosting stats to God-like proportions. Enemies are supposed to scale to your level but that's hard to believe when I've got 25+ in almost every stat. Just how much tougher would Kotor2 be if 18 was the maximum? Some people got wisdom up to nearly 50!

 

The ability to spam force powers is also a big problem. Force points should be reduced or certain powers made more expensive to cast. It's ridiculous when you can just queue wave/force storm and kill everything in a room.

 

BGII had a good deal of strategy, especially against Firkraag and enemies like lichs.

Lichs were a nice challenge in BGII. In fact, the first time I encountered one my entire party was slaughtered. That's what happens when you simply charge at them with no strategy. However, you can do that in Kotor2 with no penalty. No need to formulate tactics at all. Just soften enemies up with wave/stasis/lightning then mop up any survivors.

 

No challenge = no fun.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Well, I don't know what RPGs you have played, but in the ones I played, just 'shooting 'em in the ass' wouldn't do the trick. The GM's task is to create a challenging adventure for whatever party he's hosting a game for. Yes, even if that party is an all-18s. If the GMs you played with were unable to deal with your uber stats, then sorry pal, but they were bad GMs. There's more to being a GM than just storytelling.

 

Since in CRPGs there is no GM, that's what difficulty settings are for. Easy for the newbs/casual gamer, normal for the RPG vets, and difficult for those with a taste for reloading often and hardcore powergamers. That is the minimum one can expect. But in K2, the difference between the different difficulty settings is next to zero. Why?

You are still dodging the matter of the different skill settings. If those were implemented properly, there would be no need for powergaming in the lower levels, while it could be from useful to necessary in the higher ones.

 

It's not being done right now, I agree. It's been a long time since I played a challenging RPG, too. But impossible? You have yet to provide a valid reasoning that proves what I'm proposing unfeasible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm refering to the old days of CRPG,nothing to do with PnP.

 

It depends who the difficulty settings are intended for so called "Hardcore" gamers, or different subsets of casual gamers. Would I waste the effort of a difficulty setting to placate the small % of people like me ? No , dont see much point in that.

 

Take HOF , it's difficult in it's own way. But once you manipulate the difficulty to that extent, you now longer have D&D. You have something very different , that dosnt even play like D&D.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Quite true, but in the 'good old days' you usually kept your stats from start to finish - i.e. what you rolled. These days, it's all about boosting stats to God-like proportions. Enemies are supposed to scale to your level but that's hard to believe when I've got 25+ in almost every stat. Just how much tougher would Kotor2 be if 18 was the maximum? Some people got wisdom up to nearly 50!

 

The ability to spam force powers is also a big problem. Force points should be reduced or certain powers made more expensive to cast. It's ridiculous when you can just queue wave/force storm and kill everything in a room.

 

Lichs were a nice challenge in BGII. In fact, the first time I encountered one my entire party was slaughtered. That's what happens when you simply charge at them with no strategy. However, you can do that in Kotor2 with no penalty. No need to formulate tactics at all. Just soften enemies up with wave/stasis/lightning then mop up any survivors.

 

No challenge = no fun.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

True, but the new rules have been written with allowance for these high stats. I call it Dragon Ball Z Syndrome.

 

Probably not a lot tougher. None of my characters went to that extreme. Nor did I spam force powers except for fun (and one game I quit out of boredom of doing nothing but force storm).

 

I've got my own solution to that, perhaps I will send it in one of these days.

 

Depends on your knowledge really. Anti magic plus a solo character = dead liche with little effort. More places for people to make mistakes, but if your intended audience is mostly made up of inexperienced people that may well be the intent.

[213374U]

It depends who the difficulty settings are intended for so called "Hardcore" gamers, or different subsets of casual gamers. Would I waste the effort of a difficulty setting to placate the small % of people like me ? No , dont see much point in that.

Then you would be a bad game developer.

Small %? Come now. Anyone who has played any other CRPG short of a FF will find K2 ridiculously easy. If there is no significant difference between the different difficulty settings, why have them at all?

It. Makes. No. Sense.

 

But anyway, yours is still a weak argument at best. Implementing effective difficulty settings is real simple, and takes little effort and time compared to other development aspects. Proof of this are all the rebalance and hardcore mods that are already coming out. I have modded the game slightly to accomodate my personal tastes, and I have NO modding skills whatsoever, FFS!

 

Sloppiness is the word.

 

 

Take HOF , it's difficult in it's own way. But once you manipulate the difficulty to that extent, you now longer have D&D. You have something very different , that dosnt even play like D&D.

Yeah, that's why K2 plays so much like SW d20 right now.

[HomoUniversalis]

Forgive my ignorance, but what does the C in CRPG refer to?

 

Although I have not played Kotor2, as my computer won't run it, I find it peculiar that a certain group of players would not find a challenge in the game.

 

If there is a group of people who are experienced RPG-ers, and who need a bigger challenge, surely Obsidian could have created an additional difficulty setting, perhaps named 213374U? Especially when it is so simple.

Although I am not yet ready to condemn Obsidian for anything, I do feel that a broad difficulty spectrum (easy for the ff players, difficult for the experienced players) is important.

 

Mr U

[kefka]

True, but the new rules have been written with allowance for these high stats.

Well, they obviously failed in that regard, since high stats are a major reason the game is easy. It also cheapens your starting abilities when you can double, or even triple, your original stats. They've gone to the extreme with this. My weakest attribute was 12 strength but it was still 25 by the end. The others were even better. No, I don't think the rules allow for that. You have almost no weaknesses.

 

Depends on your knowledge really. Anti magic plus a solo character = dead liche with little effort.

Yes, but liches made those tactics necessary. You couldn't just wade in and hope for the best. And fighters had a real tough time once protection from weapons was cast. Only a mage could breach those defences which encouraged teamwork. Kotor2 requires no strategy. Everything goes down in 1 or 2 hits or dies before they even get into range.