Too many NPCs a bane for KOTOR II

[alx1078]

Aside from all the grief almost everyone has with the ending of the game (one of the most unfulfilling endings in RPG history if one takes into account the potential of the story), i believe having too many NPCs and not using them correctly also contributed to the final disapointment i felt upon completion.

 

I believe that the purpose of having many NPCs is for the player to have a great variety of personalities and skills to chose from. If the game makes the choices for the player it kills the excitement and the engagement the player feels.

 

For example i really liked the character of the handmaiden and in my mind she slowly started playing a major role in the story of my character, but during the final 2 hours of my game (when most of the important stuff was happening), i could not select her! Instead the game force-fed me (pun intended) Visas and Mandalore, and later on Mira and the Remote for crying out loud!!!!!!!! Not only that, the game was taking liberties with my story and trying to convince me that somehow Visas was an important character to me, when the time she came with me to fight Nihilus was the first time I EVER picked her in my threesome (pun intended).

 

In the first KOTOR i was far more engaged with the NPCs in my party than in KOTOR II (maybe apart from Kreia). Bastila was not only a romantic possibility for your character but also played a major role in the story and the development of your character. There were no scenes in KOTOR II that got me as emotionally engaged as those in the first one with Bastila (i admit though that in order for this to work on KOTOR one has to like the character of Bastila, and from what i got there were some who downright despised her. Lucky for me i liked her and consequently the story.), or even Mission.

 

With the exception of Kreia all the others either weren't explored so well, or you just didn't have enough time with them to get to know them. Either way the result was disappointing.

 

So for future games pls Obsidian if you want that many NPCs (i want them too.) follow the path of BG II and expose them all adequately, but don't force the player into playing with specific characters as that destroys the enjoyment and engagement of the game.

 

 

And another thing. I'm not sure whether this was a bug of my game, but i had to constantly recycle over the same dialogue lines with the other NPCs in order for something new to maybe appear. I lost interest after a while and i might have missed dialogue lines with some of the ones i didn't use that much. If it is indeed a bug then does anyone know how to fix it? If it's not a bug WHY did you go and change the first one's format of dialogue, when if nothing new needed to be said then there was nothing to be said, and you didn't have to search through endless dialogue trees to find something new.

[DarthNihilus]

If it helps you I NEVER took HK or GoTo with me unless needed to gain influence with them based on previous known places that will suit their...bloodthirsty needs

My party was me(Guardian/Weaponmaster),Handmaiden Jedi(Jedi Guardian hugely powerful)(Light Mastery ) and Kreia(for influence)

Rest could`ve been useless unless for their backstory AND to turn them Jedi of course

On Dxun I sent Bao-Dur,HAndmaiden and Mira all 3 Jedis all mastery and kept Visas,Kreia and myself for palace

 

NPC`s are all about backstory so don`t feel bad

Especially Bao-Dur who can`t be talked to BUT he looks awesome as DS(too bad I can`t play DS but once when I GOT to do it)

 

Happy now? U made me cry for all the atrocities I did as a DS-er

Imagine the HORROR,the PAIN to kill that Queen and to let a bunch of Mercs overrun Khoonda...ATROCIOUS!

 

[Zilod]

I start saying that i like the chars of TSL, they show a great potential, and probably are abit more complex than KOTOR.

 

Said that i must agree you that, expecially considery their potential, i found them not too developet, or at least not to a degree that i liked.

 

The approach to comrades we have in TSL is way different than the one we had in KOTOR, in the first game they where mostly just comrades that used to accompany you in your adventures, they had their sotry and quest to enrich their character and the plot, but mostly was up on the player to chose to follow these side, comrade enrich, plots.

 

There the sotry was strictly the one of the main character, and comrades where important only to the degree that the player chose.

 

 

TSL seem to be more story driven, all the characters, Exile included, are functional to the story. For this reason every npc, is there not just to form the usual "D&D party", but to give his contribution to the main story.

 

Is for this reason you are forced to use some characters sometimes, because they have a role in the story.

 

I must say that personally i liked more TSL approach but i have still some reserve.

I was lucky as Kreia and Visas where my fav chars so i almost always used them, but i can agree that it could be bad if from a certain point of the game you are no more able to use a char just because he have no more role in the story.

 

Is it true that after dantooine you are forced to use some chars, giving the feeling that some other are no more important to the story, but i think this is mostly due to the cut ending.

 

Reading a bit what it could have happened, is quite clear that every char, expecially the ones (not dead) that you where more attached had still a big role to play, and some centrality in the story.

 

For these reasons i consider this more a fault of the game than an Obsidian fault, also as siad i have prefered more background and interaction with most of out comrades.

The influence idea is very good, and is also great how various comrades behave when you make some decision, all of this give them more live, but this doesn't replace the loss for lack of knowledge of their past and their wishes.

 

A bit note even to romances, i think that TSL ones are more mature, but generally are not too developed too, the romance seem no to give to the main char and the "beloved" a sort of attchment and of mutual knowledge.

I'm not saying that it have to be exactly like KOTOR, with a sort of tender feeling and a kiss, but for example with Visas i didn't noticed any change in her, i was not able to know her past and her feelings, or just to confort her.

I didn't noticed a development in the feelings and in the story. I just know her, treat her well and poof at the end we look each other in the eyes

With the Handmaiden we fight a lot, is clear that something is happening, but again at some point it stops the feelings and the mutual knowledge doesn't improve leaving all a suspended feeling.

 

All of this in my opinion make use see them just as npcs functional to the story than to real friends/comrades.

[DarthNihilus]

The Echani way is through battle...by fighting with her and she underfighting(letting you beat her) says much

Visas loved you from the moment she felt you through the Force..she even forsaken her master and willing to sacrifice herself for you

Kreia..."I would kill a Galaxy for you" more or less and "Oh Boy!" she can

Bao-Dur was very attached to you and even killed a whole planet for you - very charismatic "General" indeed...Revanlike

Atton seeks redemption and what better way than be a Jedi assasin to defend a Jedi?

Mira,being Bounty-Hunter was the only thing she knew..WAR,FIGHTING...as soon as she could she left that forsaken planet for a Jedi(Jedis are still handsome good lookin` eh? )

HK-47...wants just to get off the ship .. lucky T3

T3...good droid who knows nothing else than to serve and suffering by Revan`s loss(it needs a memory wipe)

GoTo..wants his bussiness done and it can`t be done in a boiling Galaxy

_____________

Disciple and Hanharr don`t know and don`t care since I`ll never have them 2 with me because I play ONLY male and hate wookies

[Darth Credulous]

I tend to give each of the NPCs a 'starring role' with each planet. On Nar Shadaa I'll take Atton and Bao-Dur. On Dxun, I'll send Visas, Mandalore and G0-T0. On Onderon, Handmaiden and Kreia. And so on, and so forth.

[SteveThaiBinh]

Fewer characters on board the Ebon Hawk. I'm with Kreia on this. I mean, there are only two dormitories (and a remarkable lack of beds).

 

So perhaps a maximum limit of four, but from a large pool. Characters who join only if you're dark/light/male/female. Some characters who are influenced by your alignment, but others who will leave if you go too far the wrong way. Rather than having them all hang around getting in the way, I'd prefer to say to Goto "Look, I don't talk to you, I've never taken you off the ship, I sold all your upgrades for cash, take the hint already!"

[hawk]

I agree with you all there are to many NPC's on board. The one's I most often take out are:

 

Atton

Handmaiden

Visas

Mira

Bao Dur

T3-M4

 

That leaves:

 

Kreia

Goto

HK-47

Mandalore

 

Why: Kreia is getting on my nerves after I complete Telos. I only take her out on Dxun for the beast trick and off course in the second part of Onderon. As for the others, DS isn't my way.

 

I always thought it will be better if there would be one more planet to explore, to gain more influence and XP

[Zilod]

just to add

 

I don't think they are too many, aboard the hawk they are pretty the same of KOTOR1

 

is also true that we know why they are with use, but we know them just for what they speak about us and the story, not really for what they are or they feel.

Of course there are some chars more developed, Kreia is just awesome for example, but that was the general impression i had.

[DarthNihilus]

Kreia IS the best character in the game...

HK is my personal favourite..everytime he starts talking it cracks me up

Women...I`m a sucker for dames,what can I say?

Bao-Dur is nice

Mandalore is a classic

Atton..intriguing

T3 faithful as always

GoTo - he wants his bussiness back

 

Nice NPCs overall...better than KoToR 1 overall and I`m not so light when in comes to critising...I HATE a lot of things about this game but the above ones are not in that list

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

The less you have the more real you can make them. If you only had two NPCs you could devote the whole NPC budget (and save a packet on VOT) to those and have them talking constantly about pretty much anything.

 

The more NPCs you add the less effort you can devote to each one. It's a trade off really. The thing with KOTOR which makes it different to D&D is that the "classes" are not that distinct from each other anyway.

 

So you end up with a lot of NPCs with overlaping skills , especially if you train everyone in their other class.

 

KOTOR II does a better job of making ranged combat viable in the end game. But you still have a lot of people who do nothing but warm the benches unless they are specfically demanded for a story element.

 

Thats why I liked the missions in KOTOR II everyone got some "camera" time.

[Niten_Ryu]

With the exception of Kreia all the others either weren't explored so well, or you just didn't have enough time with them to get to know them. Either way the result was disappointing.

 

Yeah, I felt the same way. And to make things worse for me, Kreia was my least fav character (too much like BG2:ToB Melissan).

 

G0-T0 was my absolute fav, from the concept point of view, since it wasn't that useful in the game. G0-T0 was much like Vhailor (my fav character) from PS:T, both have very rigid world view. G0-T0 was epitome to evil republican... cold and calculating. It even had to choose between saving republic or serving republic laws.

 

Beautiful stuff.

 

Too bad that I only used G0-T0 during one mission :'(

[Kams]

As I see, all of you here play the Light side...

 

Hanharr is the best - good fighting, lots of skills.

Besides, he is big and angry. I always took with me.

[chibajoe]

Fewer characters on board the Ebon Hawk.  I'm with Kreia on this.  I mean, there are only two dormitories (and a remarkable lack of beds).

 

So perhaps a maximum limit of four, but from a large pool.  Characters who join only if you're dark/light/male/female.  Some characters who are influenced by your alignment, but others who will leave if you go too far the wrong way.  Rather than having them all hang around getting in the way, I'd prefer to say to Goto "Look, I don't talk to you, I've never taken you off the ship, I sold all your upgrades for cash, take the hint already!"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm in agreement on this one; there are way too many NPCs, and it's obvious that Obsidian did not have enough time to flesh all of them out sufficiently. I think if there had only been 4-5 NPCs who were more distinct (i.e. had a more distinct skill set) and well developed, it would have made the game more interesting. Considering Obsidian didn't fully flesh out the NPCs that are in the game, I don't think the BG "lots of NPCs but limited party size" approach would have worked out very well.

[Malagance]

The first time I went through the game, I took Mandalore (Too cool) and Visas with me everywhere for my party. I therefore didn't notice anything strange at the end of the game.

 

Then I played through again with Her Hottness Mira and Bao-Dur as my main characters. At the end of the game, I realized that you HAD to take Visas and Mandalore with you on the ravager. I don't have a problem with taking Mandy-man, but Visas? Ugh. I was very ticked.

 

Oh, and many of the NPCs lacked a solid background. Kreia was about the only one. What tidbits they had would be alright if they didn't have the influence system for unlocking conversations and instead took the KOTOR1 route of having it unfold with time, but with the influence system, they probably would've been better off cutting out some of the less popular NPCs and putting in more stuff for the existing ones. And I'm not a fan of ever being forced to take more than one person with me at any given time. The Ravager just pisses me off now whenever I get to it.

 

The "take over someone that isn't your main character" is a nice turn, but they either needed to do it less often or have it take up less time. The only times I don't ever mind it are when I'm playing T3. The little droid is spunky and is so different than playing a normal character that it's a nice refreshing change to play, furthermore, none of T3's segments last for that long.

 

But there are parts like where you take control of Mira while walking into the Jekk Jekk Tar. Now I'm a fan of Mira, but this sequence was completely unnecessary. They could have just waltzed Mira into the bar via cinematic. Not to mention, the atmospheric suit gives you a very limited (Read: Nonexistent) view of her booty.

[Zilod]

Fewer characters on board the Ebon Hawk.  I'm with Kreia on this.  I mean, there are only two dormitories (and a remarkable lack of beds).

 

So perhaps a maximum limit of four, but from a large pool.  Characters who join only if you're dark/light/male/female.  Some characters who are influenced by your alignment, but others who will leave if you go too far the wrong way.  Rather than having them all hang around getting in the way, I'd prefer to say to Goto "Look, I don't talk to you, I've never taken you off the ship, I sold all your upgrades for cash, take the hint already!"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm in agreement on this one; there are way too many NPCs, and it's obvious that Obsidian did not have enough time to flesh all of them out sufficiently. I think if there had only been 4-5 NPCs who were more distinct (i.e. had a more distinct skill set) and well developed, it would have made the game more interesting. Considering Obsidian didn't fully flesh out the NPCs that are in the game, I don't think the BG "lots of NPCs but limited party size" approach would have worked out very well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

4 chars is like to have a fixed party, with just 1 romance possibility, no replayability, not to say that with so few chars maybe you will end up playing all the game with chars you don't like too much. Also if now we can chose chars oriented to DS or LS we will have not much choices with such low number.

 

and about the more different skill sets, i think this was made on purpose, to permit to form viable parties with different chars.

If you have no way to replace a npc because of specialization here that you will be forced to use it regardless if you like it or not, and if i have to chose a comrade for my adventures i want to do it because i like him/her, for the background and so on, not because he have that usual skill that i need for most part of the game.

 

about 4-5 chars on the ebon hawk with a large pool to chose....

it will not save any "resource" because you will have to develope anyway all the chars of the pool, so is not that to have 2 npcs on the hawk and to be able to chose from 20 chars will be different than to have 20 npcs all on board, all the character have to be equally developed to be viable choices for different players and replayability.

[alx1078]

First off romance -wise there was none in TSL. There were hints, and probably some flirting (not even pg stuff " ), but not a romance.

 

As for the NPCs i agree that there should be a large pool of NPCs and then 4-5 came along for the ride. You hold the replayability factor, but then they would have to make the characters with much more depth and much more talkative to cover for the whole of the game. Having 4-5 characters in the ebon hawk will also feel like a closer camaraderie, than a whole army of NPCs most of whom you'd never pick anyway.

 

With so many NPCs they just have to think of one part on the whole story that each would fit, and that's it. That's why in the end you don't really care too much for any of them.

 

And i disagree that they are more in depth or more mature than the first one. Kreia is, but that's about it. The fact that they are all more morally ambiguous is a given since the game as a whole is like that, but that alone does not make them more in depth or more mature, than Bastila, Carth, Mission, Jolee and HK-47.

Sure they have the potential to become so much more, but they stop way before they reach it.

[Zilod]

As for the NPCs i agree that there should be a large pool of NPCs and then 4-5 came along for the ride. You hold the replayability factor, but then they would have to make the characters with much more depth and much more talkative to cover for the whole of the game.

 

It will not make them deeper or more talkative if the pool is bigger, probably will end like the opposite with less interaction with npcs....

 

let me try to do a pratical example

 

there have 200 lines of dialogues for npcs

 

we have 4 npcs on the hawk we can chose from a pool of 20 chars

 

it will be not that these 4 chars will have 50 lines of dialogue each because you can chose from every char of the pool, maybe player A will chose npc 1.2.3.4 while player B 5.6.7.8 and so on

 

so even if for a single game you will use just 4 characters the lines have to be distribuited among all 20 characters of the pool

 

this will end up have 10 lines of dialogue each.

 

this is the "value" you will have even if you will take all 20 chars on the hawk..

 

every chars will have 10 lines each.

 

i think is quite clear that to have 4 chars aboard makes not them more complex, is the pool that matter, as said the interaction will be even less because with 4 chars you will ear 40 lines of dialogues at best during a game, while with 10 you will ear 100 lines.

 

The npcs can be more complex if you have only 4 npcs to chose from in all the game, in this way yes you will have every npc with 50 lines.

(Also for the reasons i said in the other post this is not a good idea in my opinion.)

[alx1078]

Perhaps i didn't make myself clear before.

 

Of course the bigger the pool of NPCs the less development each will have. That's not what i meant.

 

What i had in mind was having a large pool of NPCs (say around 10-12 as in this game) but only taking with you each time you play about 4. That way those 4 characters would have to talk a lot more and be more complex in order for the game to not be a Diablo hack and slash fest, and you'd become more engaged with the characters you had with you each time.

[Zilod]

Perhaps i didn't make myself clear before.

 

Of course the bigger the pool of NPCs the less development each will have. That's not what i meant.

 

What i had in mind was having a large pool of NPCs (say around 10-12 as in this game) but only taking with you each time you play about 4. That way those 4 characters would have to talk a lot more and be more complex in order for the game to not be a Diablo hack and slash fest, and you'd become more engaged with the characters you had with you each time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If you don't give them more lines, more things to say, they can't talk more...

 

Take the game exactly as it is now, if you put only 4 chars on the hawk they will not talk more, they will say exactly the same things they say now (actually there will be less shortcuts on the ship).

 

This is because they have a fixed number of things they can say, a fixed number of lines...

To make them to talk more (and to say interesting things) you have to give them more lines, the only way to do that is to put more time in their creation, with a longer development or to make a pool with less characters....

 

If they have saved the time and the effort to make, Mira, Visas, Goto, the Handmaiden, the disciple and mandalore they where able to put more time and energies in the other chars like Bao Dur or Atton or the few ones that remain...

 

I know is not what you are suggesting, and for sure i don't like it too.

 

look it as an equation..

 

character complexity = time invested/number of characters

 

(time invested is the total time invested to do all the characters in the pool)

[Mant]

I found that even with all the infulence I could get, with most characters in KotoR II there were much less conversations I could have with them than the characters in KotoR I.

 

Kriea is the most obvious exception, as you talk to her a lot, and Atton basically spills his whole life story in one go when he confesses. Everyone else only seems to have a couple of conversations, and you can in many cases have them pretty much all at once (Mira, Disciple). So you just have one conversation with them and that's pretty much it, except when they comment on an action.

 

By contrast the other party members in KotoR I have a lot more to say. For the human characters you get pretty much their life stories as you level up, plus the (often funny) conversations they have with each other while in you active party which was missing this time around. They also all have their own side quest thing with some one from their past, and comment on you actions.

 

If less NPCs would give that depth in KotoR II I would find it a good trade off.

 

Of course the cut ending stuff would add some depth to them too.

[Azr1el]

On the subject of conversations with NPCs - I agree, It's great to be able to influence NPCs, but there aren't enough conversations throughout the game. You lack that sense of progression after a few hours into the game. because at this stage the conversations are going nowhere. After a few hours into KoTOR2, you keep asking or saying the same things. To Visas Maar: "Why did you find me?" (God, at this stage if I don't know...). To Atton: "Let's play Paazak." Again...

 

Wishful thinking and beside technical/financial constraints - it would be great if there were new conversations with NPCs until the final scene almost.

[alx1078]

To make them to talk more (and to say interesting things) you have to give them more lines, the only way to do that is to put more time in their creation, with a longer development

 

Exactly what i've been trying to say!

 

By contrast the other party members in KotoR I have a lot more to say.

 

Very true. In Kotor I actually cared what happened to my teammates, and the only time i was actually worried in KOTOR II is when you go to Telos and find Atris and the Handmaiden and Atris strikes down the Handmaiden. After i defeated Atris (before i talked to her again) i rushed to where the Handmaiden was lying and there was no little circly thingy on her. It was like she was part of the background and for a minute i thought Atris had actually killed her. That's the only time i can remember in the game that i actually cared what would happen to any of my teammates. Other than that (with the exception perhaps of the maiden) they could have all crashed with the Hawk and i wouldn't bat an eyelash (at least in my first run of the game)