Kreia's goal?

[DarthNihilus]

And to answer strictly to the question:

1.All Force Sensitives follow Force`s path for them - leading to events that THE FORCE had for them(given many hints from Kreia as "We are here because the Force brought us here for a purpose")

2.A Force Sensitive keeps in touch with all it`s alive especially theirs close to him/her

3.Given a very traumatic event one can cut from the Force or lose it

 

as a result:

4.Exile cut himself from the Force

5.Kreia teaches him to feel the Force "the Nihilus way" - by feeding off it

 

naturally

6.Exile CAN BEND THE FORCE or use it to his OWN purposes

7.add that he is a Leader as Revan was

8.add that all Jedis are dead

That makes him and Kreia ONLY "wounds" in the force(since BOTH were Exiled and stripped of their Force Bond - connection to Force not THEIR bond which was a bond INDUCED by Kreia...their bond was nothing more than Master -apprentice one)

9.Kreia dies...thus Exile is the ONLY wound left in the currect Galaxy(except Revan who was gone to the Outer Rim - possibly the LAST of the REAL Jedis in terms of the Force)

10.Personal belief: I believe that all the ones that are in your party and are turned to Jedi(Bao-Dur,Atton,Handmaiden) are tought by teh Exile how to feed off teh Force not allowed to see THE FORCE..Visas was the only left alive on Katarr(I believe she was stripped of the Force as well as Nihilus stripped Kreia) and possibly made as NIhilus was - feed off the Force

11.In the end we have ONLY wounds in the Force or Jedis who are replicas of Nihilus including the Exile

________

 

Reason: Kreia wanted all Jedis dead...she succeded...Exile is trained to replace her. Why? Because he FEEDS on the FORCE thus he MUST find Jedis to SURVIVE ... the next perfect Jedi assasin if you like

When last of the NATURAL Force sensitives is dead he will lose all his powers as well OR he will feed "The Nihilus way" on entire planets stripping of life whole systems

Also party members who once were Force Sensitives or still are and taught the same Nihilus way are bound to turn on each other in an attempt to gain more "wounded" Force since we can`t call it FORCE anymore..in the end Exile kills all that will remain from them anyway since he`s the strongest

 

At least that is a logic way to think for Kreia

 

Also I have proof that this was Revan`s plan as well and will reveal them if asked.

Kreia was NEVER other than the Sith Lord..even when she was stripped off her Power

[Zilod]

In a dialogue at the enclave is Kreia herself tells you that you teached to Nihilus and other behings to drain the force...

 

all these sith lords are just echoes of the original hole, are echoes of the Exile himself.

 

"ref: Kreia explanations after council death - dantooine, the enclave"

 

 

What is important in the exile is not that he wield power, but is the fact that he recided his bound and still lived, he chose to leave the force that sustain and control jedis and generally all living creatures (to a degree) and to become a complete man, no more subject to it, able to shape his destiny and to fight, see and live with his own forces.

 

i think we can see that expecially at the enclave, where the jedis are judging the Exile, they fear him,

 

they say he is blind, incomplete, deaf and Kreia tell to the Exile and to us that he finally was able to see, to hear and to become a full man.

"ref: council judge the exile - dantooine, the enclave"

 

the Exile is the truth, is a man not deceived by the force

"ref: Kreia judge the council - dantooine, the enclave"

"ref: darth Traya last words - Malachor V, Trayus academy"

 

they are not ready to live whitout the force, they say that they will become as the exile (so "resistant" to the force) and they can't allow it

"ref: council judge the exile - dantooine, the enclave"

 

Kreia don't want another Nihilus, The teching of the miraluka's master should not be allowed to continue, she say to the exile (ehm something like that) at some point.

"ref: Kreia speak about Visas master nature - Exile questions to Kreia"

 

He, and supposely other sith lords are an echoes that they will consume the galaxy and have to be stopped.

"ref: Kreia speak about Visas master nature - Exile questions to Kreia"

"ref: Kreia explanations after council death - dantooine, the enclave"

 

she doesn't want to create a sort of weapon under her control, she tells to the Exile that he have to kill her or she will break him

"ref: darth Traya's challenge - Malachor V, Trayus academy"

 

 

 

I think that what makes this game great is the thing that it subvert the usual game or story vision where the protagonist is something special, that receive a sort of divine gift that make him superior to the others.

In a universe of powerfull ships and weapons that can destroy planets, of the force, of jedi knights that defend the galaxy, and siths that wield terrific destructive powers, of a chosen that will put balance to the universe, the centrality is restored to a single Man, that is nothing special, that have not divine powers, but that was able to say "no" to the power that bounded him to his destiny.

This man is a true man, that fight, love and live with his own strenghts, is not a game of power, or fight between good and evil, is a game of enlightment, of the path that the Exile, and generally all of us, have to go through to become real men, able to "express our potential".

[Zilod]

aaaa and as said above i strongly disagree with the "real sith" theory, Kreia mention them when she speak about Revan, the real sith menace is the Revan path, when the exile ask her what she have done if she had the opportunity to help Revan she tells that maybe she had helped him if Revan asked her, but there it end, is not her path, nor her goal.

 

she explain very well what are the goals in 2 moments

in the end at Tryanus academy

 

and at dantooine enclave, if the Exile kill the enclave.

[DarthNihilus]

Normally I would agree BUT

Exile uses the Force as Nihilus did since his affinity to the Force was lost at Malachor 5..this is a fact

based on this he MUST feed on Force Sensitives in order to maintain his power and he will always have "the hunger" of Nihilus

 

Revan was at a point Kreia`s student and HE was the one that started killing Jedis through various methods (HK-47 tells you)

Kreia tells you that Revan was power,while about Exile she says staring at the death of the Force

 

So he trains him to feed off the Force in an attempt to kill Revan and/or all other true Jedi(true Jedi = Jedi/Sith who use the Force naturally)

Another possibilty is to train him to kill or fight Revan or hunt him or meet him

Still possibility is that Exile is the weapon to drain both Jedis and Sith`s FORCE and ultimately become the second Nihilus only much more powerful and HAVE THE CHOICE of his actions and the KNOWLEDGE to make those choices since most of Kreia`s "way" is to teach you to make the "right" decisions and to rely ONLY on yourself

[Zilod]

Normally I would agree BUT

Exile uses the Force as Nihilus did since his affinity to the Force was lost at Malachor 5..this is a fact

 

No is not exact, the Exile chose to cut his bound to the force, is very different that what happened to Nihilus and other echoes

 

Nihilus and the other can't chose to leave the force, was a thing that they had to suffer regardless of their will... they "need" the force, they "need" that power and here that they are forced to drain the ones near them to mantain it.

 

Darth Traya tells you that she can't recide her bound,

"ref: Darth Traya answers - Malachor V, Trayus academy"

 

as, in a similar way, the jedi council was not able to accept the Exile for the fear to lose their connection for the force.

"ref: Council judge the exile - Dantooine, jedi academy"

 

the Exile is different from them due to his choice, he don't need the force anymore.

Traya tells to him that was a miskate to make him feel the force again

"ref: Darth Traya answers - Malachor V, Trayus academy"

 

the Exile is no more dependant to the force, while all the other echoes will die if not sustained by it.

(nihilus need it to draw his power, but also to feed his hunger, whitout it Nihilus will comsume himself)

"ref: Kreia speak about Visas master nature - Exile questions to Kreia"

and Sion will simply die with his body shattered, is actually what happens when you confront him at Trayus academy.

[Rambutaan]

Okay there's been a lot of discussion going on here but could someone please provide a summary of what actually happened at the end-game and what she set to achieve to have the Exile fight her :D ?

 

Is the bond that Kreia and the Exile share, fake? Since how come when Kreia dies the Exile doesn't?

 

Oh and to add some wood to the fire, how about Bastila? Isn't she still a true Jedi (i.e. one that doesn't feed off the Force)? If that's the case, she's probably the last Jedi left.

 

Oh another question, is there anyway you can avoid killing the Jedi masters?

[Zilod]

Okay there's been a lot of discussion going on here but could someone please provide a summary of what actually happened at the end-game and what she set to achieve to have the Exile fight her :D ?

 

Is the bond that Kreia and the Exile share, fake? Since how come when Kreia dies the Exile doesn't?

 

Oh and to add some wood to the fire, how about Bastila? Isn't she still a true Jedi (i.e. one that doesn't feed off the Force)? If that's the case, she's probably the last Jedi left.

 

Oh another question, is there anyway you can avoid killing the Jedi masters?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not too sure about that and these are really heavy speculations.

 

 

I think the bound is not fake and is present at least until the enclave judgment.

I'm inclined to think that actually is present until the Exile kills Kreia (or Kreia kills him).

 

One of the reasons why the Exile have to kill kreia can be that is necessary to cut this bound. Kreia acted as a guide during all the enlightment path, and the bound was probably the main instrument she used to guide him, now is time for the exile to walk with his legs.

 

Another (and i think quite sure reason) why they have to fight is that Malachor was another unresolved thing for the exile, this is presented as a sort of fight against the exile himself and malachor, probably is the final step to make the exile accept what he have done, to give him consciousness of hos choice and, if we put it the link theory, a chance to prove that he have the strenght to make again that decision. note that if the first time probably the Exile choice was more due to instinct and a sort of uncounscious action, this time the exile have to counsiosly recide his bound.

 

The third reason can be that Kreia was an echo herself, she need to stop all the echoes or the galaxy will be destroyed so she need to stop herself.

 

The other way she could have done that is probably reciding her bound with the force, but we know that she is not enought strong to consciously do that.

also note the fact she is unable to cut her bound can be itself a motivation why in the end she have to face the exile.

 

 

We don't know if Kreia knows that Bastilla is still alive, maybe she tought she was dead, but anyway it doesn't really seem that the will of kreia was to exterminate the jedi, in dantooine academy she tells that was not strictly necessary to kill them.

 

Also when she speak about the destruction of the force it seem that she want to "destroy" it not using the exile as a weapon but as an example to others, her "war" is a "war" of conversion not of strictly destruction, so maybe is not necessary to kill Bastila as seem to be not necessary to kill Exile's apprentices.

 

Anyway Bastilla is not the last jedi, there are all the Exile apprentices, and at least Visas if the exile have not trained anyone, or even Revan.

 

 

about the jedi master... i have not found it, and don't think is it possible.

They force you (or Kreia) to kill them, because they can't accept what the exile is.

[AngryTarsier]

I dun know about the others but for an LS Male, I got a different explaination. I did however respected the councils decision and gave in to their judgement.

 

Kreia said that the exile was unique in that he(LS male) left the force by his own will but then she continued that she thought the exile had greater purpose but she was mistaken and that the exile left because he was afraid.

 

It seemed to me that Kreia was talking about power , power to free oneself from the force but then such teaching is sith.. it is basically the same thing in the code of the sith.. about chains being broken and the force serving you. Perhaps this is the ultimate sith teaching to be free from the force, to wield/use the force but not to enslaved by it like everyone else. Not to bow to its will or be affected by it but able to use it... its like people and money, people look for money and use money but when they gain more money they strive to look for more money, do anything for money and in the end money enslaves them. A person who can use money but not be affected by it since with or without money this person survives.. is like the exile and this I think is what kreia is after..

[Dimeron]

He recided himself his bounding with force, he was not in need of the force to survive or to be "complete", the force can no more shape his destiny, now he is free to chose and he can see and hear the galaxy as a man.

 

Aha! Many thanks, you've just solved potentially the last piece of my personal puzzle; namely, if Nihilis is actually a part of the exile (as I believe he is), why does Visas Marr say after looking at Nihilis that he is "just a man"? If I understand correctly, Visas is really telling something the exile more or less exactly what you just said.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

You know, that would actually make a lot of sense. When the exile severed him/her self from the force. The cast off become Darth nihilis. Since Darth Nihilis is incomplete, he need to feed on the force to sustain himself.

 

The theory I had is that he was in the same situation as the Exile. Except he was not strong enough to do what exile did: cut himself from the force. And the death/destruction consumed him and turned him into a force leech.

 

Unfortunately, Darth Nihilis would have been very cool character if he

[Zilod]

Kreia said that the exile was unique in that he(LS male) left the force by his own will but then she continued that she thought the exile had greater purpose but she was mistaken and that the exile left because he was afraid.

 

It seemed to me that Kreia was talking about power , power to free oneself from the force but then such teaching is sith..

 

I don't remember the part when Kreia tells that the exile had a greater purpose (LS male, LS revan),

 

To me the power she is talking about in this situation, is not the power to free onselef by the force, but the power of corruption generated by the wars and by malachor V in particular...

 

she tells that the wars generated a power so great that forced jedis to fall or to be destroyed, then she tells about that she didn't know why how was possible for the exile to "turn away" from this powerand from the force, and that now she know it was because he was afraid.

[AngryTarsier]

I may stand corrected.. I think you're right on that one..

poor mind too confused already

 

still the "power" to "turn away" from both the corruption as well as the force might be tempting for her.. she is a gatherer of knowledge and that what caused her to fall in the first place.

[Zilod]

still the "power" to "turn away" from both the corruption as well as the force might be tempting for her.. she is a gatherer of knowledge and that what caused her to fall in the first place.

 

i think too that she was very curious about the exile, and also that she knows really well what he really is.

My suppositions are that she understand the force, understand what the exile is but have not the strenght to free herself, and she didn't know how it was possible.

 

I'm also inclined to think that she was on Malachor V during the battle and she knows in first person what happened there.

[Aryanne]

Kreia npc of the year award

She brings truth,and you ignore it?What arrogance!

[Zilod]

Kreia npc of the year award  

She brings truth,and you ignore it?What arrogance!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

aaaa that for sure

 

she is so rich, complex, drammatic

 

that part when she enter in the academy to judge the council is great

 

she direct the story and the game itself guiding you in your journey...

 

not to say that i found the actress who give her voice really awesome

 

is sad that we know so few of her past, probably we can speculate on something, but really we can't know what she was and how she acted

[Aryanne]

that part when she enter in the academy to judge the council is great

 

Yea especially when shes talking about redemption and how long it had been since she was last there.Then she sits and needs rest.Obsidian owes me a box of kleenex for that one.Only the 2nd game in history to do that.

 

On top of it had to set her free

[DarthNihilus]

I`m back with some more lines...which proves I was right from the beginning

I will use quotes from game so do not read if u haven`t finished the game yet

 

I was right in the beginning...Kreia wants to kill ALL Force Sensitives...THE FORCE.. doesn`t matter if they are Jedi or Sith..

"Create the right echo and all will be destroyed"

"What you brought is death to all who feel the Force.You have brought death to the Galaxy" - Kreia at Dantooine Council chamber - DS

 

Also Atris explains very well Kreia`s plan if u really want to listen - DS as well

"...the Force was stripped from her and torn from you" - thus I was right when I told that he feels the Force NO MORE...his "Force" is a Nihilus way and Traya`s way

"You are a wound in the Force"

 

And now WHAT she intended all along - Atris`s words

"She seeks to create a greater wound in the Force;greater than you are,a wound that would deafen all that is in touch with the Force.Few can survive another one(first I believe it was Malachor 5 who originally started it)" - my belief is that first wound was Malachor 5..next wound will be after all known Force Sensitives are dead(Jedi Council+Nihilus+Sion+Kreia). Atris is a Dark Jedi at the point you meet her 2nd time so no harm either if she lives or dies...Bastila is alive but she follows Revan`s way which is the Dark way...and Revan who is gone to teh Outer Rim(Sith or Fallen Jedi as well) ..

"She seeks the death of all the Jedis and the Sith..of the Force and she thinks you are the key"

 

__________

 

Add HK`s story about Revan,about what he had done AFTER Malachor 5 and namely:

1.ON Malachor 5 he "cleaned house" - his PRIORITY were the Jedis NOT the Mandalorians which means he was there with teh INTENDED purpose of killing Jedis,since Kreia was his last Master before Malachor

2.AFTER Malachor 5 kill all Jedis he could find or make them join the Sith

 

Add that u normally(roleplay or self-understood) transform your companions into Jedis(Nihilus replicas as well) - somewhere one says that you always inspired THROUGH the Force people to follow you blindly

 

So the logic conclusion:

 

1.You ARE a wound in the Force...in fact you are THE wound in the Force and again somewhere you learn that where YOU go all Sensitives are blindened(??)

2.You choose the Light Side you eventually will have to FEED on Force sensitives thus

3.You choose Dark Side..self explanatory - you kill all that is Sensitive

Why were YOU chosen? Because Kreia CANNOT do it herself and she is too weak to do it anyway,thus she will need YOU

 

She gives you one choice really...to kill all that is Force sensitive or .. to kill what`s Force sensitive simply because you will have no choice..actually knowing Nihilus you will eventually feed on everything that is ALIVE..no other choice unless you suicide...which you won`t do or it would`ve been in the ending

[Zilod]

I`m back with some more lines...which proves I was right from the beginning

I will use quotes from game so do not read if u haven`t finished the game yet

 

I was right in the beginning...Kreia wants to kill ALL Force Sensitives...THE FORCE.. doesn`t matter if they are Jedi or Sith..

"Create the right echo and all will be destroyed"

"What you brought is death to all who feel the Force.You have brought death to the Galaxy" - Kreia at Dantooine Council chamber - DS

I see it as the fault of the Exile, Kreia say that when she almost kill the Exile that haven't understand what she want and what is him.

 

When she tell that, and asks you about your feelings, Kreia tells also that wars generate assassin and destruction.

If you tells her that you want to exterminate the jedi or the sith here that she that you have become just an assassin like all the others and her teachings where not able to give you enlightment but just power to destroy your enemies.

 

Then she speak about the destruction and i think that is blaming you... something like you had the chance to become the hope for the life (as Visas tells you on ebon hawk) but you just become the destruction of the galaxy.

 

 

Also Atris explains very well Kreia`s plan if u really want to listen - DS as well

"...the Force was stripped from her and torn from you" - thus I was right when I told that he feels the Force NO MORE...his "Force" is a Nihilus way and Traya`s way

"You are a wound in the Force"

The exile is a wound in the force as Nihilus and Kreia, but he was able to cut his bound from the force.

Nihilus Nad Kreia can't do that, so they are forced to consume living to continue to use it.

You are different, with your choice the force is no more so important to you, you can live whitout it, and fight with your own strenght, and also whitout draining all around you.

Kreia says also that make you feel the force again was a mistake, i think because the force can lure you again and become to you important as it was before you cut your bound, i think she have done that because she tought was necessary for you to comprehend what you are and to fight the echoes, but in the end she realize that it was not necessary.

 

And now WHAT she intended all along - Atris`s words

"She seeks to create a greater wound in the Force;greater than you are,a wound that would deafen all that is in touch with the Force.Few can survive another one(first I believe it was Malachor 5 who originally started it)"

"She seeks the death of all the Jedis and the Sith..of the Force and she thinks you are the key"

Keep in mind that she want to the Exile to come to her at Malachor V, and also that she want you fight with Atris.

I really think she is manipulting Atris to force her to fight you, knowing that (expecially if you are LS) you may not want to engage her.

She gives Atris reasons to attack and kill you, a menace that will destroy the force, the last obstacle to destroy becose fight the siths and so on, also she want to tell and lure you where she is now, on Malachor V.

 

Is it true that she want to destroy the force and you are the key, but she want to do that with your example not just killing all the jedis and the siths.

 

She also knows that is not possible to destroy the force in a brutal way, again in the academy on dantooine, if you kill the council and tell her that the jedi are destroyed she tells you that for every jedi dead another one will raise.

This demonstrate she knows that they can't be cancelled from the galaxy, that is just a matter of time and a new jadi will raise... She want to free people from force oppression, and the only way is to show a path, an example that other jedis in future can follow.

 

__________

 

Add that u normally(roleplay or self-understood) transform your companions into Jedis(Nihilus replicas as well) - somewhere one says that you always inspired THROUGH the Force people to follow you blindly

Yes for most of the game you have the impression that you manipulate the ones around you, is the council that tells you that you inspired your comprade through the force, and it seem that is mostly like that...

but after the jedi council when Visas speak to you she tells something different.

You tell her your fears about the fact that you manipulated all of them with the force and she reply that is not true, that the council was blind and have not understood who you are.

She tells you that your influence with your friend is not a control of the force, but the natural leadership of a great man.

 

I think that this is very interesting, it not clear all the doubt you have, but it gives you another possibility to understand who you are.

 

The council is blindend by the force, they can't comprehend you, nor she can't explain what they can't know.

They see you with the force, the great things you do must be done using the force for them so they can't really explain how you are doing that... if people follow you, they just think is the force that permit you to manipulate them.

 

For them whitout the force you are gimped, can't fight the DS as a jedi, can't see the galaxy, you are half a man, but really they can't understand, they are blinded by the force, by their own power, so they can't accept that all of this is possible even whitout the force.

[DarthNihilus]

Exile lost his natural Force or his born Force ability at Malachor 5..by choice yes but he cut at that time his bond with the Force

Kreia lost her power when it was stripped from her by Nihilus

Thus we can assume and I`m sure we are not far from truth that Exile and Kreia are using the Force the Nihilus way...

I still don`t understand why Revan who had the plan in his head all along haven`t suffered the same "pain" as Exile whjo wasn`t the Supreme Leader, although I suspect Revan was already Sith when he lead the battle at Malachor 5

So..we have a guy who cut himself from the Force by free well...that doesn`t make him a wound since he couldn`t be found by Nihilus through Visas(that girl can sense anything that`s Force related) nor by his trained assasins to search a guy/girl through the Force...only AFTER he takes his first steps in feeling again he begins to be hunted(HK-50 found him by accident and AFTER he was discovered by the Republic - he was having diplomatic clearance on teh HArbinger)

So..we have an exile(Kreia - former Sith Lord) teaching a guy(THE Exile)...just like you will teach your companions

His bond with teh REAL Force was lost at Malachor 5(Council tells about a hollow man)...also first 2 Jedi Council members reply to "I feel teh Force again" with "I can`t sense that in you" more or less...only the third(Onderon for me - forgot his name) acknowledges that you are strong(debateable tho`).

He CANNOT feel THE Force since it`s underlined in the whole game...nowhere you can find a line that states "I feel the Force in you".

Kreia teaches him the right and wrong from her point of view(all hints say that her pupils ended up either on Malachor 5 or as Sith). Yes she questions teh Jedi Code and the Jedi ways in a nice way BUT her goal is simple...BALANCE and STABILITY

BALANCE - no more than one great Sith Lord/Jedi MAster

STABILITY - no more dogmas..no Jedi no Sith..THE MIDDLE WAY

 

Also I must contradict you on the "You are different, with your choice the force is no more so important to you, you can live whitout it, and fight with your own strenght, and also whitout draining all around you" - At a point(I`m sure that WAS said not WHERE) I believe Kreia tells you that you increased your power through DISTRUCTION and WAR/BATTLES .. AFTER u begun your training as Kreia`s apprentice..that`s awfuly close to feeding the Nihilus way

Atris...you can "save" her of what she became anyway...also at Malachor 5 is the "test" - you fight her as you are while she draws Dark Energy in her Dark Temple/Praying Ground/Dark Force Channeler/whatever .. also may have connection to the common idea that "All things that started in one place must end at that place"

Actually...as a conclusion we may say this:

U are right and u are not

 

Malachor 5 apparently sent a "wound" wave/echo. Ever since numbers of Force Sensitives has shrunk due to Revan`s efforts and perhaps Sion`s/Traya`s/Nihilus`s. ANY Force sensitive can be turned into Jedi though Kreia`s teaching..which is USE the Force(literally) instead of being used by it.

BUT using it has a terrible price - no one will be able to SEE the Force around a powerful "wound".

let me explain..I am convinced that the Exile is a smaller Nihilus since there is NO WAY he can sense the REAL Force for the reasons above...also he blinds EVERYONE that is Force Sensitive where he goes(Visas is the only "Prophet" race Miraluka remaining and she`s on his side)..thus we have a POWER FORCE weilder who has the CHOICE to use it as he pleases,who has teh MEANS to do it,who CANNOT be stripped by it since he feeds on it AND he`s INVISIBLE to ANY Force Sensitive...AND with SOME followers to the same path...it looks like we have a whole Academy with its master as Exile and adepts as NPC`s..we also have some pawns(Mandalore,GoTo),we have an assasin who can kill Jedis/Sith,AND a bunch of padawans(Bao-Dur who apparently had done a bomb or something that done terrible things on Malachor)...sounds terrible close to what Kreia was doing before being stripped by her Force and with your companions on the ship

In the end her TRUE purpose was to make you "The Man In The Shadow" or "The Man Who Makes Things Happen"

 

EDIT:After a bit of thinking...Kreia teaches you to USE(literally as in MANIPULATE) the Force INDEPENDENTLY of her known already will to make things happen

[Zilod]

Exile lost his natural Force or his born Force ability at Malachor 5..by choice yes but he cut at that time his bond with the Force

Kreia lost her power when it was stripped from her by Nihilus

Thus we can assume and I`m sure we are not far from truth that Exile and Kreia are using the Force the Nihilus way...

mmmm thinking on it more and more i'm no more too sure about it.

My supposition is not that they actually drain the ones around them but that they use and feel the force around them.

Kreia probably have also the knowledge to drain the force as Nihilus (and i think is what she does to the council) but i doubt that the exile is really able to do that.

The exile never suffered a real drain, and the ability to consume the force can be learnt only by the experience of such a power.

 

So i think that they generally just draw the force from the ones around them, from the galaxy itself, but, as they will do if they draw it from themselves, they don't consume it as Nihilus does.

 

Maybe the techniques is the same, and Nihilus just lose the control over it, but maybe they are 2 different things, even if bounded to a degree.

 

I still don`t understand why Revan who had the plan in his head all along haven`t suffered the same "pain" as Exile whjo wasn`t the Supreme Leader, although I suspect Revan was already Sith when he lead the battle at Malachor 5

My supposition is that Revan don't suffered the same fate because he was corrupted.

The thing that probably made jedi die was not just the scream in the force, but the corruption energy of Malachor V itself.

The jedis had 2 choices in my opinion, if they where strong enought to resist they had to die due to the power of the corruption and the screams in the force, if they where not strong enought they got corrupted.

 

This happened to all the jedi exept the exile that had the strenght, and enought fear , to cut is bound.

 

I think we can also suppose that Revan wanted Mlachor V, that he alredy felt to the dark side and he was looking for an army to follow him.

 

In this case the statement of HK and the words of Kreia about Revan that knew about the power of places of corruption like Malachor V, and the power needed to build them, makes a lot of sense.

 

So..we have a guy who cut himself from the Force by free well...that doesn`t make him a wound since he couldn`t be found by Nihilus through Visas(that girl can sense anything that`s Force related) nor by his trained assasins to search a guy/girl through the Force...only AFTER he takes his first steps in feeling again he begins to be hunted(HK-50 found him by accident and AFTER he was discovered by the Republic - he was having diplomatic clearance on teh HArbinger)

So..we have an exile(Kreia - former Sith Lord) teaching a guy(THE Exile)...just like you will teach your companions

His bond with teh REAL Force was lost at Malachor 5(Council tells about a hollow man)...also first 2 Jedi Council members reply to "I feel teh Force again" with "I can`t sense that in you" more or less...only the third(Onderon for me - forgot his name) acknowledges that you are strong(debateable tho`).

He CANNOT feel THE Force since it`s underlined in the whole game...nowhere you can find a line that states "I feel the Force in you".

Kreia teaches him the right and wrong from her point of view(all hints say that her pupils ended up either on Malachor 5 or as Sith). Yes she questions teh Jedi Code and the Jedi ways in a nice way BUT her goal is simple...BALANCE and STABILITY

BALANCE - no more than one great Sith Lord/Jedi MAster

STABILITY - no more dogmas..no Jedi no Sith..THE MIDDLE WAY

 

 

I'm not too sure that Kreia was in search of balance and stability at this point.

When she say why she hate the force she tells also something like that the force strive to balance regardless of the lives that are lost, and this is actually what is happening.

 

It seem to me that she want to give a new beginnin or, as she knows that the force will use everything, herself included, to achieve balance, she want to give to the galaxy an Man that can be an example to the new order that will come, an example for all the galaxy, that is it possible to be complete even whitout the force.

 

Also I must contradict you on the "You are different, with your choice the force is no more so important to you, you can live whitout it, and fight with your own strenght, and also whitout draining all around you" - At a point(I`m sure that WAS said not WHERE) I believe Kreia tells you that you increased your power through DISTRUCTION and WAR/BATTLES .. AFTER u begun your training as Kreia`s apprentice..that`s awfuly close to feeding the Nihilus way

Is the council that says that, and they can't see anything whitout the force as they are blind.

They probably see you the same way as Nihilus, and the other lords, because they can't see where there is not the force.

They can't know you as they can't know Nihilus. they just see both of you as wounds or holes.

 

Atris...you can "save" her of what she became anyway...also at Malachor 5 is the "test" - you fight her as you are while she draws Dark Energy in her Dark Temple/Praying Ground/Dark Force Channeler/whatever .. also may have connection to the common idea that "All things that started in one place must end at that place"

Atris or Kreia?

 

Actually...as a conclusion we may say this:

U are right and u are not

I bring you truth and you judge me, what arrogance!!!

just joking of course

always a good thing to have a nice debate and to exchange opinion...

as Kreia says the truth come from the confrontation of opposite

 

Malachor 5 apparently sent a "wound" wave/echo. Ever since numbers of Force Sensitives has shrunk due to Revan`s efforts and perhaps Sion`s/Traya`s/Nihilus`s. ANY Force sensitive can be turned into Jedi though Kreia`s teaching..which is USE the Force(literally) instead of being used by it.

BUT using it has a terrible price - no one will be able to SEE the Force around a powerful "wound".

No i disagree here, Traya is not free from the force and she know that, is also why she hate it.

When she ask her why she still use the force even if she hate it, she simply say that she can't.

You (and the Miraluka?) are unique, you made a decision that Traya and all other jedis at Malachor V where not able to do.

Is not just a thing that can be taught as a technique or a knowledge, is something more deep, a choice that everyone can do.

 

let me explain..I am convinced that the Exile is a smaller Nihilus since there is NO WAY he can sense the REAL Force for the reasons above...also he blinds EVERYONE that is Force Sensitive where he goes(Visas is the only "Prophet" race Miraluka remaining and she`s on his side)..thus we have a POWER FORCE weilder who has the CHOICE to use it as he pleases,who has teh MEANS to do it,who CANNOT be stripped by it since he feeds on it AND he`s INVISIBLE to ANY Force Sensitive...AND with SOME followers to the same path...it looks like we have a whole Academy with its master as Exile and adepts as NPC`s..we also have some pawns(Mandalore,GoTo),we have an assasin who can kill Jedis/Sith,AND a bunch of padawans(Bao-Dur who apparently had done a bomb or something that done terrible things on Malachor)...sounds terrible close to what Kreia was doing before being stripped by her Force and with your companions on the ship

In the end her TRUE purpose was to make you "The Man In The Shadow" or "The Man Who Makes Things Happen"

i see it different

In my opinion at the end we have a new beginning, as this should be, even by the will of the force.

But the Exile can't be simply "the man in the shadow", he is way more important than that, the Exile is not a new Kreia, he is what Kreia probably wanted to be in the end, but not due to his power, but due to what he represent for the galaxy.

 

As said i don't think that the centrality of the Exile is a centrality of power or strenght, but is due to what he represent. A hope for all lifes (as Visas say on ebon hawk)

[Zilod]

Actually...as a conclusion we may say this:

U are right and u are not

I bring you truth and you judge me, what arrogance!!!

just joking of course

always a good thing to have a nice debate and to exchange opinion...

as Kreia says the truth come from the confrontation of opposite

Or by devs that tell us what they really intended

[Drakron]

Star Wars (like any universe with too many people making things for it) have a lot of ideas that conflict.

 

I played Jedi Knights game and people are forgetting (or not remenbering) that people were turned into force users by either the Valley of the Jedi or Marka Ragnos staff/sword.

 

Remenber that Kyle removed himself from the Force after MotS and had to use the Valley of the Jedi to accelerate his connection to it, problem is the force is overpresent in Star Wars and everything is linked to it sort of some notable exceptions but that does not mean you feel the force of 3CPO but its possible to feel his presence in the force.

 

But then we have creatures that do not exist in the Force, the Vorg for example did not had a force presence and were "force dead" but they are living creatures and one of then actually used the Force so instead of going with theories that will conflict with many concepts of the Force there are already examples of how that worked.

[Zilod]

Star Wars (like any universe with too many people making things for it) have a lot of ideas that conflict.

I agree 100% with that

 

I played Jedi Knights game and people are forgetting (or not remenbering) that people were turned into force users by either the Valley of the Jedi or Marka Ragnos staff/sword.

 

Remenber that Kyle removed himself from the Force after MotS and had to use the Valley of the Jedi to accelerate his connection to it, problem is the force is overpresent in Star Wars and everything is linked to it sort of some notable exceptions but that does not mean you feel the force of 3CPO but its possible to feel his presence in the force.

 

But then we have creatures that do not exist in the Force, the Vorg for example did not had a force presence and were "force dead" but they are living creatures and one of then actually used the Force so instead of going with theories that will conflict with many concepts of the Force there are already examples of how that worked.

I don't see how the ideas in this 3D conflict with the things you said and examples you posted.

Also, even if my knowledge of EU, is very limited, i don't see conflicts of what i know of the force in SW universe, and expecially in the movies.

 

The only thing that i see very different is the vision of the force that Kreia (and the game) have, she see the force as able to manipulate the living behings and to shape their destiny.

Is a bit different than what we consider generally the force, more of an instrument to use and that grant power, but we must not forget that even Yoda in ESB tells that the force controls our actions to a degree.

 

So i don't see a conflict in this, but a different point of view, and in my opinion a very interesting one.

[Drakron]

Well that is the problem, I also view the force as something that is a tool but some autors disagree and show the Force with intent, like George Lucas with that "balance to the force" and "will of the Force" thing.

 

Of course things deep down goes to points of view and what people belive to be true, I know that the NJO goes more that a bit into "there is no Dark Side" and a reasoning that the Dark Side of the Force is caused by people being good and evil ... naturaly that contradicts with a lot that been done by other autors.

 

I think in TSL case people are just taking things too literaly and assume things some characters say to be true.

 

Lets look at the Exile being a "wound in the Force", now he uses the force and its not something that can be stolen with that ease (only thing that I remenber able to do something like that is Marka Ragnos Staff) but not being present in the Force also means nothing in relation to be able to use it, after all a Vorg is using it.

 

Perhaps the Exile simple is cut from the Force in a way that he no longer can be seen as a Force user and have a force presence but still be able to manipulate it and be a part of it (its being affected by it after all) but what can be said ... making him Vorg like would make him unaffected by most Force powers and so not a good idea from a balance point of view to the combat system and naturaly giving the plot away the moment players see their character cannot be affected by Force powers.

[Trom]

Excellent discussion folks. After reading most of this, I'm impressed with your reasoning abilities; ya'll sound like lawyers or have PhD's in comparitive literature. The thing is, I still don't understand Kreia's motiviation. Ultimately, is she trying to do something good for the universe or something evil? I think in the end she says she's done all this so that Exile would be able to help Revan against the True Sith. However, if she has done all this conniving for an ultimate good, then it's the most extreme case of the end justifying the means. It seems to me she engaged in a lot of unnecessary brutality.

 

In reality, I think the plot just got away from Obsidian, although I'm sure Lucas would have had to approve it beforehand. Of course, he's not well-known for consistency himself. In the end, I think they boxed themselves into a corner, especially since they truncated the endgame. Kreia could have been a great enigmatic character, which is what I think they were shooting for, instead she is implausible. I also wonder if they got some word of how K3 is going to be plotted out and had to make some last minute changes to segue to K3.

 

I don't know if this will help or not, but this is what Feargus, CEO of Obsidian had to say in a GameSpy Interview shortly before the XBox version shipped:

 

-----

 

GameSpy: Will there be a plot twist, and if so, how do you plan on topping the plot twist of the first game?

 

Feargus Urquhart: We have never set out to make a newer, better, and more improved plot twist. Our goal has always been to craft a story that the player loves and enjoys playing. There will be all sorts of different twists and turns in the story, but we never set out to craft an entire story around making a bigger twist than KotOR, we set about making a story that stood on its own and was as deep and intriguing as KotOR. We think we've done that and hope all the people out there will dig it.

 

-----

 

It sounds to me that he was trying to reduce expectations on the plot and I further read into that that they were not happy with it either. I'd just like one of the devs to tell me with a straight face that he/she has a clear understanding of Kreia.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

"You expected some grand revelation" ? "Well there is none".