"Got Bugs?"(TM)

[Chi`ara]

Ok... I've removed anything that might be spoiler-esque from this post but I will warn anyone reading that parts of it quoted before I got around to it may contain minor spoilers (no specific characters or plotlines mentioned, though). As for it being in the "wrong" forum, I've been told X-Box forum, tech forum AND spoilers forum, so I'll just say "whatever" and let the mods decide if it's general enough for here.

 

I've been playing KotOR2 for about 30 hours now and while I *want* to like the game, while I *want* to LOVE the game because I absolutely adore KotOR, it's so damned buggy, it drives me crazy - it's difficult to enjoy.

 

I'm sure there are a... few other topics just like this one, but here's me grabbing my own space to say, "dammit! This is a CONSOLE game. There is no 1.0X patch let alone 1.0X.Y patch. 'Playable' and 'good enough' are standards you can get away with for a PC game release that can be patched 650 times. You can't skimp QA on a console game. If it is not *polished* when it goes gold, it's an utter failure."

 

I would guess that trying to get the game out for the holiday rush had something to do with it, but a lot seems to have been left at "good enough" and any previous goals of "good" or "great" were abandoned on the QA side of things.

 

It's hard to go through certain bugs I've encountered without spoilers, but I've hit a few of them that stick out like a knife might out of the side of someone's head.

 

Specific examples:

 

1) At least once, clicking to initiate dialogue immediately following a specific sequence led to the repetition of an entire 2 minute dialogue/action scene. Infinite light or dark side points available here. Next...

 

2) Certain map points appear on the map screen before the object associated with those map points is present.

 

3) This *might* be considered a spoiler, however vague, so I'll remove it entirely

 

4) Item duping - get rich and confused at the same time!!! Selling equipped items occassionally leads to them being duped and while this has pleasant financial consequences, it messes up your characters' equip item screen. On Dantooine, I attempted to sell two items currently equipped on one of my characters... but I ended up selling them twice, raking in over 12,000 credits where only 6,000 should have been earned. First, the screen would show me selling them as equipped and then as unequipped. But this little issue prevents the item from disappearing visually from the equip screen. It's still "equipped" on the character previously in possession of it, though sometimes the equipped slot image flashes between the item icon and the "empty" slot icon. So far, the only harm this causes is confusion and the desire to do it again (and again and again), but there it is.

 

The really, really annoying issues:

 

1) I've had the game fail to load several dozen times (leading me to now save every 5 minutes). KotOR 1, which has been played a good 50 times between the various people in my house, has never... ever failed to load. Considering how long loading takes, having to turn off and on the X-Box repeatedly eventually starts to get really annoying.

 

2) Simple actions such as using a medpac or switching first person characters often lag up my X-Box for a good 5 seconds. A lot happens in 5 second in a battle. Like my characters dying. This drives me mad.

 

3) Often, the sound/voice for dialogue scenes is entirely absent. Alternatively, a character's head is absent and my PC is conversing with a beheaded NPC.

 

4) Various missing/messed up textures, animation errors.

 

5) For a number of selectable items (NPCs, consoles, footlockers, etc), you must be standing *just so* or the interaction fails.

 

The scary thing is that I haven't *tried* to analyze the game for errors, but they are there. I'm more than just a little disappointed with this supposedly "polished" release. It's simply not polished.

 

Ok, ok... Not to be a completely negative grouch here:

 

I have really noticed improvements to the AI. While regardless of the chosen combat macro, your party will run suicidally through a minefield without hesitation as they did in KotOR 1, pathfinding to objects is noticably improved. Finally, nothing *intentional* regarding the game has struck me as terrible. I only wish the gameplay were a little smoother so I could enjoy the game as it was intended.

[Ludozee]

I think this topic should be better off in the tech forum

[Jad'en]

Spoiler Tags, wrong forum.... coupled with tiredness im just gonna say bugger off >.<

[ken the great]

I'm sure there are a... few other topics just like this one, but here's me grabbing my own space to say, "dammit! This is a CONSOLE game. There is no 1.0X patch let alone 1.0X.Y patch. 'Playable' and 'good enough' are standards you can get away with for a PC game release that can be patched 650 times. You can't skimp QA on a console game. If it is not *polished* when it goes gold, it's an utter failure."

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I understand your frustration. However, I have played many other console games with bugs. This isn't a new trend.

 

And just for the some other people here (<cough><cough>Hades<cough><cough>), I'll give you a little education on the games industry. Small development houses like Obsidian do not have adequate QA departments to fully test a game. Developers are lousy at QA. They are also lousy at support. In a relationship like the one between Obsidian and LA (where the publisher owns the property), the publisher is almost completely responsible for final QA and ongoing support.

 

I would guess that trying to get the game out for the holiday rush had something to do with it, but a lot seems to have been left at "good enough" and any previous goals of "good" or "great" were abandoned on the QA side of things.

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It had everything to do with it. LA rushed this out 2 months early. With that extra development time, some of the bugs might have been squashed. Then again, maybe not. We shall never know.

 

It's hard to go through certain bugs I've encountered without spoilers, but I've hit a few of them that stick out like a knife might out of the side of someone's head.

----------

Then place this post in a forum where spoilers are allowed. Like the Xbox forum or the tech support forum.

 

Specific examples:

 

1) At least once, clicking to initiate dialogue immediately following a specific sequence led to the repetition of an entire 2 minute dialogue/action scene. Infinite light or dark side points available here. Next...

----------

There are many places where you can do this. Many of the conversation trees allow you to replay them. Your responses the second time through are just as dark/light as the first time through. This is not a bug.

 

2) Peragus: A certain ship and its map points appear on the map screen before said ship docks with the station. It was pretty confusing to see this ship at Peragus, then watching it travelling to Peragus and later docking with it... when it was always there on the docking bay map. (No, not the Hawk - the other one...)

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I never noticed this. I didn't think the ship's real map appeared until after I boarded the ship. I'll check this the next time through. Since you can't go through the door that leads to the ship until after you dock, it should not be confusing. There are still walls.

 

3) I suppose this is either one huge and rather amusing glitch or something that was intentional, yet totally escaped me as such: When encountering a certain character aboard the Ebon Hawk, I was hit *once* for 75% of my vitality points and prompty (and hopelessly) ran like heck. This character followed me all over the ship, right into Kreia. I ran like six circles around Kreia, who did not move, only hoping to gain enough distance to heal/shield myself. It didn't work. I finally gave up and ran out of the room again, only, this attacking character did not follow me (phew). Heading back up the hall towards Kreia and this new character onboard after this little escape, I could hear combat sounds in that room and when they stopped and I re-entered, the game when straight to a dialogue sequence as I had "bested" this character... without ever fighting. (Easiest battle I've ever fought... :ph34r: ) Kreia was sitting on the floor doing... nothing as usual, but was all hunched over and injured when I later spoke to her, indicating that she had fought this battle for me.

------------

So, how is this a bug? Maybe that was supposed to be your out if you couldn't defeat that "character". Maybe you should have worked more on your combat skills before trying that battle. That battle really shouldn't have been a problem for a 10+ level character.

 

4) Item duping - get rich and confused at the same time!!! Selling equipped items occassionally leads to them being duped and while this has pleasant financial consequences, it messes up your characters' equip item screen. On Dantooine, I attempted to sell two items currently equipped on one of my characters... but I ended up selling them twice, raking in over 12,000 credits where only 6,000 should have been earned. First, the screen would show me selling them as equipped and then as unequipped. But this little issue prevents the item from disappearing visually from the equip screen. It's still "equipped" on the character previously in possession of it, though sometimes the equipped slot image flashes between the item icon and the "empty" slot icon. So far, the only harm this causes is confusion and the desire to do it again (and again and again), but there it is.

----------------

That's because there were probably two of those items. I can only think of two items that are exactly 6000 credits. You collect the two items together. You can actually collect a two sets of this pair if you go back to a certain cantina before leaving a certain world. I'm not saying that your experience was not a glitch, but maybe you forgot that you had two different items that looked almost identical.

 

The really, really annoying issues:

 

1) I've had the game fail to load several dozen times (leading me to now save every 5 minutes). KotOR 1, which has been played a good 50 times between the various people in my house, has never... ever failed to load. Considering how long loading takes, having to turn off and on the X-Box repeatedly eventually starts to get really annoying.

----------------

I've had that happen exactly twice. Both times were at the end of long sessions on my Xbox. **** happens sometimes. How many times have you had your computer crash for an unknown reason?

 

Oh, btw, have you modified your Xbox? I am curious to know how many peop0le experiencing frequent load failures have moddified Xboxes.

 

2) Simple actions such as using a medpac or switching first person characters often lag up my X-Box for a good 5 seconds. A lot happens in 5 second in a battle. Like my characters dying. This drives me mad.

-----------

The only time I have had any lag was in large battles. And first person is useless in battle, so I again ask, have you modified your Xbox?

 

3) Often, the sound/voice for dialogue scenes is entirely absent. Alternatively, a character's head is absent and my PC is conversing with a beheaded NPC.

------------

I have not had any sound issues at all. Some of the conversation clips need some work. Usually, I am standing very very close to the character and the first person camera cannot compensate for my proximity. Try staying a couple of steps back when you have a conversation.

 

4) Various missing/messed up textures, animation errors.

---------------

I've had not problems like this at all. Have you modified your Xbox?

 

5) For a number of selectable items (NPCs, consoles, footlockers, etc), you must be standing *just so* or the interaction fails.

---------------

This is annoying. The interaction is not failing, the pathfinding just sucks. This is not new to RPGs and gaming. Nor is this a "bug". It is just bad programming.

 

The scary thing is that I haven't *tried* to analyze the game for errors, but they are there. I'm more than just a little disappointed with this supposedly "polished" release. It's simply not polished.

---------------

Of course they are there. This is still a product made by humans. I don't believe a polished game can be released in less than 20 months. It takes 3-4 months of bug testing to properly polish any game. By all accounts, Obsidian only had 18 months to get KOTOR2 completed.

[drcloak]

Some bugs are inevitable. But this is a Console Game, where a bug getting through in the final product is more fatal and detrimental to the overall game.

 

Regardless of how much development time was cut from them, or the lack of manpower they had in order to locate and eliminate bugs, there is still no justification or defense to release a game littered with bugs for a Console System, that doesn't have the ability to accept patches like a PC game.

 

If I were to list out the bugs I've encountered, it would only serve to depress people even more lol.

 

- dr cloak

[starwarskid15_19]

too long not gonna read all of it. yes the game is buggy but it shouldnt make you not enjoy the story.

[Ostkant]

I pity you, really. I'm on my third time through the game and I have never experienced some ultra-annoying bug.

 

When did you buy your Xbox? Try to find out when it was made. If it says 28th May 2004 it should be the latest "version" available, which is the version I have - and I'm bugfree.

[Chi`ara]

If what I've written crosses the spoiler line, well... move it, I guess. I apologise, as it was my intention to be spoiler-free and give only very vague explanations instead. I'll edit, but it's been quoted so it wouldn't do much good.

 

About the map problem, the whole map was not on the map screen, just map tags to it when it was not yet there. I could go taking pictures of my TV screen, but all I can say without spoilers is, I wasn't imagining things. My exact reaction was, "why is *that* there? That's not here! Did I miss something?"

 

The battle on the ship, as I admitted pre-edit, it might not have been a glitch.

 

Regarding the repeat-sequence issue, this was not your average repeatable conversation. Many of those exist, yes. I can't get into detail without spoilers, but it did not only replay a conversation, but an entire battle afterwards. After messing with this a few times, I did not try to initiate dialogue after the sequence and the NPC who was there disappeared (and therefore couldn't be spoken to) as I assume was the intended end of that sequence. It was something of a sloppy transition where for about two seconds, you could click on that NPC again, and replay an entire battle, before it properly vanished.

 

Items: there *were* two of them. I sold four of them. Even after, they were still visually equipped on the equip-item screen but disappeared completely when I re-equipped the character.

 

I'll muck about and take some pictures of this, I guess.

 

Lag usually happens in battle, but I get it at other times, too. Still, this is more or less the same engine as KotOR 1, so these problems should be avoidable as they were not present with the first game.

 

My X-box is not modded. The only "foreign" addition to our X-Box is the stupidly expensive DVD-adapter piece from Microsoft since our DVD-player bit the dust last summer. I'm not sure if that would cause problems. I guess it's possible. I'll try playing the game with it unplugged and see what happens. The X-Box itself is an older model (2002), but hasn't fizzled out on any of the 30-something other games we have. I *expect* to have to upgrade my computer. I shouldn't have to upgrade a game console to a model made 2 years later.

 

As for QA, my point remains, the game just doesn't seem like the finished product a console game needs to be. Sure, other companies do this, but as Obsidian's first product under that name, it's not a very good start into the market.

[Bokishi]

I killed Nihilus and Visas still talks about me having to face her master WTF

[Force Reaper]

I killed Nihilus and Visas still talks about me having to face her master WTF

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not really a bug, just a f*ck up on Obsidians part lol

[drcloak]

I pity you, really. I'm on my third time through the game and I have never experienced some ultra-annoying bug.

 

When did you buy your Xbox? Try to find out when it was made. If it says 28th May 2004 it should be the latest "version" available, which is the version I have - and I'm bugfree.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Good for you.

 

- dr cloak

[Ostkant]

Did you check, Chi`ara? I was thinking that if our Xboxes are different it might be so that these Xboxes that are made in May are somehow more likely to not experience bugs.

 

I'm trying to look for a pattern here, it may be so that the newer Xboxes are better for KOTOR 2, I'm not trying to say that I'm the greatest just because my Xbox is the newest version.

 

I think it says right under the Xbox, it's easy to check.

 

It could of course all be random, manufacturing date and/or what version it is could might as well be irrelevant to the fact that some people are experiencing bugs with KOTOR 2, and some are not.

 

I have experienced some bugs, but not so annoying. Just stuff like my swoop floating three meters in the air while racing (which only happened once) and a few times where the game freezes.

[EnderAndrew]

Actually there are people with 1.0 boxes getting no bugs, and people with 1.6 boxes getting bugs.

 

Some people have had success getting different discs. But I've noticed that every person who is getting major bugs and lockups seems to have the Thompson DVD drive, which is notouriously bad for reading various types of media.

 

Did LA use a weird type of disc, or print the discs poorly?

[Ludozee]

If what I've written crosses the spoiler line, well... move it, I guess.  I apologise, as it was my intention to be spoiler-free and give only very vague explanations instead.  I'll edit, but it's been quoted so it wouldn't do much good.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You can use spoilertags. Put [spoiler in front of your spoiler and [/spoiler at the end. close with ].

[Jad'en]

Actually there are people with 1.0 boxes getting no bugs, and people with 1.6 boxes getting bugs.

 

Some people have had success getting different discs.  But I've noticed that every person who is getting major bugs and lockups seems to have the Thompson DVD drive, which is notouriously bad for reading various types of media.

 

Did LA use a weird type of disc, or print the discs poorly?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well im not sure about that but i know there is a new form of Anti-Piracy going around...

 

It makes the disk only marjinably workable therefore the copying process is immpossible...

 

I havent tested this on K2 though so it may just be a bad batch:)

[EnderAndrew]

Well, you can't read an XBox disc in your computer. Direct copying of an XBox disc is practically impossible.

 

There are ways to recreate an XBox game on a DVD, but that's another story.

[Jad'en]

its not as immpossible as you might think

 

it just means i had to break my mates old X-Box and hardwire some components lol

[EnderAndrew]

I said practically impossible for a direct copy. There are ways to copy XBox games.

 

But I'm not going to teach people how to pirate.

[Jad'en]

Lol all they need is a internet connection (well duh) and they can find out how to themselves :D

[Chi`ara]

I'm not sure exactly what model my X-box is. It was bought in 2002, so it's one of the earlier ones. I'll check eventually, but it's a pain to get out of the entertainment unit. Removing the DVD-player adapter did help with the loading crashes a bit, but there was still a lot of lag during combat. Ah well. Finished the game despite the bumps.