Filling in the plot holes at the end...

[Perfect-Tommy]

lol

 

So I've read through about 6 pages of this thread and it's getting to be kind of the same old, same old.

 

I think what it all comes down to is that both the PC and Xbox version had a common release date. It's amazing how much a difference a couple months can have when it comes to a game. I'm sure there are full levels, partial movies and many lines of unused codes lying all over the Obsidian offices...

 

For what it's worth, I think this storyline was much better then original KotOR storyline.... till the last couple hours.

 

I play games for the storylines, not to become "uber", and a couple hours into this game, I couldn't stop. I understood a lot of what happened, but a lot of the unanswered questions really leave big holes.

 

I think the #1, mamma-jamma hole that lets me down is the hole Mira thing. By the end of the game we know a lot of Kriea's choices and cryptic double talk, but never what Mira's true potential is. I have only played through the game once (I got it for Christmas and was out of town till a day or two ago, so give me a break ), but all I know is she can learn Jedi classes. That's it. I never got close enough to her to get her story from her. I assume that she has the potential to be a very powerful force wielder, but it's never fleshed out?

 

What about the whole HKs will never stop thing. They seemed to misteriously stop after I whoop their asses a few times....

 

 

All I can say, and I hope an Obsidian staff member reads this.....

 

If the PC version comes out as a "Director's Cut", I would buy it. I am not one to buy a game on multiple platforms, or support the microsoft "sell a broken car so they can market their replacement parts later" way of bussiness. In a case like this, I would be willing to make an exception. After playing through this game. hearing the basic plot and seeing all the improvements you made to the engine I have nigh-complete faith in you guys.

 

I really hope in the future, Obsidian can give us their products a little more in the condition they see fit...

[Brutus]

Hasn't anyone noticed that the Kreia storyline and the Revan storyline are unrelated, or related only in the sense that they are strung together with saliva and sheer will?

 

Okay, so T3-M4 is sent back, by Bastila, on the Ebon Hawk to retrieve the Exile to help Revan fight the mysterious gathering evil on the Outer Rim...

 

So they plunk Kreia on the Ebon Hawk and the entire story is about her madcap plan to destroy the force through you. The Revan material actually has no place in it, and vice-versa. The only links, which I'm sure the apologists will dig up, are there by pure fiat.

 

It's not about dangling plots, or mysteries or ambiguities. It's about two wholly unrelated parallel plots.

 

The whole real main plot also seems to be entirely about Kreia. Lame. The story is NOT supposed to be about some NPC. It's supposed to be about the protagonist. Like BG, BG2, and Plancescape: Torment, and even KOTOR 1.

[global_74]

Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one having trouble with the fragmented story and lack of closure.  I didn't buy "Knight's of the Old Republic: Part 2 of 3".

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

exactly.

each game is supposed to be a self contained storyline.

KOTOR II leaves too many questions to be considered a good game

 

this game was nothing compared to KOTOR I in terms of story line, NPC's, load time, robustness, etc....

[global_74]

KOTOR1 was far, far better. This game will not be played again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

agreed.

 

I played KOTOR II, twice.

Once as LS - terrible terrible experience

Once as DS - better experience. you get alot more answers out of Kreia/Traya if you're evil.

 

but its just not a very good game.

[Gromnir]

many of the questions some folks had, Gromnir did not have.

 

why were nihilus a pushover if he could destroy worlds? Nihilus

[Kazic]

Gromnir I get what you were saying about the ending but I think what other people mean is that all those conclusions you drew about the story you had to draw yourself. A story shouldn't leave you guessing or leave plotholes, not the way they turned out anyway.

 

Furthermore, the game felt unfinished like the whole hk faactory thing for instance. If they ran out of time they shoud have taken the whole start of that quest out of the game.

[Brutus]

many of the questions some folks had, Gromnir did not have. 

 

why were nihilus a pushover if he could destroy worlds?  Nihilus

[The Brain]

Why did the Jedi masters decide to gather when you spoke to them? They said they were waiting for the Sith to reveal themelves, but they never felt that they had? They went back to the enclave just to strip the force from you and were planning to leave again?

 

Did Kreia create the bond, or did you? Maybe both. Who knows?

 

I didn't like the ending too much either, but I liked in both games how certain things were left vague.

 

The thing I wonder about the most though is what happens in Kotor III if there is one? Are we going to see a third mysterious force adept who just stumbles across the path of Revan and the exile? It's going to be very hard to tie four possible past combinations into the new story.

[Gromnir]

Gromnir I get what you were saying about the ending but I think what other people mean is that all those conclusions you drew about the story you had to draw yourself. A story shouldn't leave you guessing or leave plotholes, not the way they turned out anyway.

 

Furthermore, the game felt unfinished like the whole hk faactory thing for instance. If they ran out of time they shoud have taken the whole start of that quest out of the game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

is not like we is claiming that all the complaints 'bout the kotor2 story is misguided. am not denying that there is stuff missing from kotor 2 story... lots of stuff. however, some of the things folks claim is missing... ain't.

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Influence]

The story lien was absolutely great, it was deep ait was involved. I loved it and think it was a great job.

 

But it wasnt satisfying. No matter if u choose light or dark. Your still teh bad guy that is not wanted by teh council and is not wanted by the sith. You were designed to brign about the end of teh force and that is not a very good plot for soemone who wants to be a master jedi and become part of teh council, or a sith lord and rule the galaxy.

 

Sobasically the story and plot was phenominal unti lu got 4/5s doen and realized that the jedi, even htough u reunited tyhem and saved them wanted to exile you again and wanted to get rid of you. It was horrible closure even though it was great upuntil the last two worlds.

[Darth Bale]

Perhaps the threat Revan went to face is the Yuuzhan Vong? Canderous makes a mention of a Vong-like vessel in one of his war stories in the first KOTOR. Just a thought.

[The Swedish Dark Lord III]

Perhaps the threat Revan went to face is the Yuuzhan Vong? Canderous makes a mention of a Vong-like vessel in one of his war stories in the first KOTOR. Just a thought.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Juusan wong?...

[Master Veq-Riin]

Juusan wong?...

The Yuuzhan Vong are the threat faced by the New Republic. However, this seems a little unlikely because the YV aren't revealed until thousands of years later. Who knows?

[Master Veq-Riin]

Answers, at last!

 

I just finished playing a second time as LS, and I got a lot of options to ask Kreia about in the end:

 

what will happen to your friends;

who loved you, how, and why;

what will happen to all the places you visited;

about Remote;

what will happen to Mandalore and the Mandalorians (with an allusion to Jango Fett);

what will happen to the Republic;

where Revan went;

why she could never be with Carth;

what she's searching for;

who the Lost Jedi really are.

 

It actually makes for a very satisfying ending. I'll post more details in my blog in the near future. (Link in my sig.)

[Kalfear]

I was REALLY REALLY fustrated with the Jedi Masters story line.

 

First off, Vrook hardly acted like a Jedi Master. His arguements in the Holo report from Atris's and then the holo recording of him and Vandar showed him to be lead by his emotions rather then intellegence. So WHY would he be on the council to begin with? Makes no sence.

 

2) Weird named guy on Nar Shadar TELLS you that YOU were right in the choice you made and the council was wrong and hes left the council because of it! So suddenly he rejoins a newly formed council and tries to cut you off from the force even tho you helps Nar Shadar, Saved Onderon, Saved Dantoine (as all 3 masters togather they MUST know of your actions). It makes no sence!

 

3) Kavar, he appoligizes and sucks up and then tries to cut you off from the force?????????

 

I understand why Obsidian did it (to advance the Handmaiden/Atris part of story) but it made 0 sence. They are punishing you for doing good deads and being the ONLY one of them to thus far survive by NOT hiding and cowarding away.

 

Honestly, after playing it through once I veiw the 3 Jedi Masters as more of a Threat then Sion or Nimbus. As they hide their actions as GOOD guys rather then openly embrace the Dark Side.

 

(PS: Other thing that REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLY bothered me in game is, here you are the LAST of the Jedi? But in 2 seperate games I got a cut screen (present time) of Bastilla speaking to Carth (as a jedi, not as a Sith). Ok I can see how Vroom, Name with to many letters, and Kavar can not be called Jedi (as explained above) but Bastilla was HUGE in the battle in the first game. How does she suddenly appear and never been noticed by Sion or Nimbus??????? Makes no sence.

[Master Veq-Riin]

(PS: Other thing that REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLY bothered me in game is, here you are the LAST of the Jedi? But in 2 seperate games I got a cut screen (present time) of Bastilla speaking to Carth (as a jedi, not as a Sith). Ok I can see how Vroom, Name with to many letters, and Kavar can not be called Jedi (as explained above) but Bastilla was HUGE in the battle in the first game. How does she suddenly appear and never been noticed by Sion or Nimbus??????? Makes no sence.

According to Kreia after you defeat her, the three Masters and Atris aren't the Lost Jedi. The Lost Jedi are Visas, Disciple or Handmaiden, and Atton. I'm not sure if Mira can become a Jedi; at least, I haven't been successful, and the same for Bao-Dur. I won't argue whether or not this makes sense--it's just what she tells you.

 

I played as LS female, so I didn't get the cutscene with Bastila. Maybe Kreia has a different explanation if your PC is a male.

[Shizuka2]

I was REALLY REALLY fustrated with the Jedi Masters story line.

 

First off, Vrook hardly acted like a Jedi Master. His arguements in the Holo report from Atris's and then the holo recording of him and Vandar showed him to be lead by his emotions rather then intellegence. So WHY would he be on the council to begin with? Makes no sence.

 

2) Weird named guy on Nar Shadar TELLS you that YOU were right in the choice you made and the council was wrong and hes left the council because of it! So suddenly he rejoins a newly formed council and tries to cut you off from the force even tho you helps Nar Shadar, Saved Onderon, Saved Dantoine (as all 3 masters togather they MUST know of your actions).  It makes no sence!

 

3) Kavar, he appoligizes and sucks up and then tries to cut you off from the force?????????

 

[...]

 

(PS: Other thing that REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLY bothered me in game is, here you are the LAST of the Jedi? But in 2 seperate games I got a cut screen (present time) of Bastilla speaking to Carth (as a jedi, not as a Sith). Ok I can see how Vroom, Name with to many letters, and Kavar can not be called Jedi (as explained above) but Bastilla was HUGE in the battle in the first game. How does she suddenly appear and never been noticed by Sion or Nimbus??????? Makes no sence.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Why do the council members decide to exile you all over again, if you play LS?

 

The Exile is downright terrifying to Force users who look closely - except those who become fascinated. The PC is a force-user, but is no longer part of the force. Either you see this as Kreia and Visas do, and think of this as freedom, or you see a grinning skull when you look at the Exile. If you were the Jedi council, and someone showed up who could destroy the Force, possibly all life, certainly all life as they know it, would you let a little thing like a few exhibitions of heroism here and there stop you from trying to kill him?

 

As for your postscript, Bastila may not be in the game - it depends on what your Revan was - was never a full Jedi, or may have just hidden herself well in the heart of the Republic Fleet.

[sarnokh]

Sorry, that I did not read all posts here beyond page 3; I just wanted to express my own insights and feelings about the Kotor 2 end.

 

Like many here I agree that the end was lame and left me unsatisfied. In general I felt Kotor 2 had a lack of alternatives IMO.

 

As it is my usual way, I played as Light Side as possible, I made tight friendships with all light characters, and made all possible characters my Padawans, and enjoyed this. I was quite disappointed that after I spoke to the Jedi masters about everthing, especially sind Kavar and Zez-Kai Ell seemed quite understanding (and even Vrook at some point admitted he had misjudged me), that they only wanted to disconnect me with the force?

 

I did not understand this "wound in the force" thing at all. Was it a ruse by Kreia to lure the Jedi together? Was I a shade of Nihilus, he of me? I felt myself forced to the fact that I was an evil mass murderer and I had difficulties with my past. Maybe *I* would have wanted to really stand to what I did? I never really got the chance.

 

But worst of all was the end. No choice. Ok, there are the three choices, follow Revan, exile or go with friends. But why, if I followed the Light Side, dont I see myself in a renewed Jedi Order or something like this? I would have loved some kind of emotional reward, otherwise it feels like it would have made no difference if I kill or help everyone.

 

Altogether, Kotor 1 was a bit better than K2, especially regarding the really diffrent your actions and decisions make in the end.

 

And then, I was a BIT confused by the strange mysticism and belief system. I know the SW universe about avarage, no expert, but more than the movies. So here are some things I dont really understand, maybe you SW-EU experts or otherwise wise can tell me:

 

1. What REALLY happend at Malachor V? Why is everyone so shocked about what the main character did? The Mandalorians where mass murderers, even stopping them at a high price does not seem so terrible to me. Ok, the Jedi are pacifists, but still, they are KNIGHTS. They DO defend. Why is everyone else so shocked and angered too, even non-Jedi?

 

2. I really do not understand the Jedi. What did they wait for? In the movies or those EU novels I read they where never that passive in the face of such grave terror the Mandalorians were.

 

3. I thought the ancient sith empire vanished at the time, and the only Sith Empire was that of those entombed on Korriban. If not, when did the Sith Empire vanish / fall in EU history. Or does it STILL exist in the time the movies are set? Altogether, this idea of a MEGA-Sith empire sounds like a deus ex machina to me, and I dont like it. It's something in the games was never seen or heard about and SUDDENLY at the end I hear of the "real" sith. Not a good way of story telling.

[Orchomene]

Very interesting.

 

But I think (contrary to many here as it seems) that it's a good end, ok, a frustrating and a bit quick one with too many fights, but it avoids a lame conclusion like "creating a new jedi school or sith school".

 

Let me explain why all things are tied very cleverly.

 

First, it's like a philosophical conflict between hegelian and nietzschian philosophies.

Kreia and Revan are in the Nietzsche side.

The jedi and the Sith are in the Hegel side.

 

Why ? For Hegel, people define themselves as slaves and masters where the slave is the weak and the master is the powerful one. But, for Hegel, this relation hides a dependance of one to another in that the both depends of the existence of the other : the slave because of his state and the master because without a slave he is no more a master. In this situation, the Jedi is the slave of the force and his moral. The sith is the master of the force. But both depend strongly of the force. More than this parallel, in Hegel, the master and the slave are looking for recognition : the slave from his master and the master from other masters, because he knows he is already recognised by the slave but at the same time he denies the slave the power of recognition. I could go on with this, but I will let you do it as a maieutic adept (cf. Socrate).

 

Now for Nietzsche. Kreia is the Traitor. She shows that everybody needs to break with this link of dependance with the force and sees in you the Zarathoustra she never was. Sure, like Nietzsche, she knew why it was needed and how to teach someone to open his/her eyes, but she was too conformed to this and never had the opportunity, like the PC during mandalorian wars to completly close herself to the force. She is a looser and more than that knows it. With this knowledge, she forged the goal to teach someone into behind the Ubermensch, the PC. Revan, also, was the first to see that conflict was the tool to revel the true behing the teaching of the Jedi. The Jedi are weak because they let the force guid them and the Sith were weak because they overuse the force to the point they are consumed by the dependance they have toward the force. Like in Nietzsche famous book (so spoke zarathoustra, or something like that, I've not read it in english, sorry), there are some exemple of the difficulty to be an Ubermensch : Nihilus and Sion are both pretty obvious exemples. Nihilus and Sion are consumed by their own power : hunger and pain.

 

Nihilus is looking for even more force to drain and Sion can not even more kill someone, as long as this someone accept his/her death. Both are weak because they lack the possibilty to be different. They accepted their state to the point it became as rigid as the jedi code.

[Orchomene]

... a bit more.

 

You can gather many of the hegelian problem with the discussions with Hanharr. It's the them of slavery. It's really well done and the conclusion is good also. To make sure the PC is free, he vowes he would kill him without pity. It's the same idea behingd Kreia teachings. By helping the poor, you harm him because he becomes dependant of your actions, he becomes your slave. The other lesson from Kreia is to know you have sometimes to make choices that are against your moral (being the jedi one or the sith one).

 

So this games offers the real opportunity for the not light not dark side to be the winner. It's the neutral side who wins in the end. All that kreia wanted to stop was the waves from light to dark of the force. In some discussion, she talks about it. About the fact that the force uses both the jedi and the sith to reach equilibrium.

 

Sure, at the end, one side has a little power over the other, but it's a little one and it's there because true equilibrium is not possible with an instable situation (both jedi and sith want to eliminate the other).

 

That's why there is so much frustration if you are jedi or sith in the end. But just look at the situation you are neither one nor the other. Will the galaxy be better without both ? Kreia says yes. Jedi and Sith say no. In the end, the answer is not there, because it's ending at the turning point. The point where all possibilities exist. You can argue saying that the jedi are good, but the code itself is so rigid that the jedi destroy themselves the power they have and the republic is then weak because the Jedis are the core of the republic.

 

In the end, Kreia killed the force, as Nietsche killed God. Not really, not practically, but philosophically. This is the idea of the force that is killed in the galaxy. People know in Kotor2 more and more that they have to construct the republic without the jedi and the sith at the top of it. And in this, the republic is saved, for at least 5000 thousand years. It's a enormous achievment !

 

In that, this story is really, really a jewel of complexity and really well shows what is existing in our world history.

[Sir Fink]

but was darth nilihus a person or how was he created

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Darth Nihilis is not really a person anymore. As his hunger consumed him, he became less and less of a human, his tripped out speech one of the results of his change.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually, I think he's just speaking Sith. The Sith have their own language, and he's speaking it, I presume. The same language comes out of Atris' Sith holocrons.

[paul10000]

A lot of the plot holes can be filled in with some blanket assumptions made based on how you played KOTOR 1. First of all, Kreia is actually Bastila. That's why Bastila shows up as a vision on Korriban joining Malak in the Mandalorian war. So if you played as an evil Revan in KOTOR 1, then Nihilus is actually Revan gone mad with dark side power. That's why Kreia hates the force and why she wants to lure Nihilus to his death at Talos. All that stuff about Revan leaving the galaxy to prepare for a Sith invasion is just a cover for her own failure as a mentor to Revan as he regained his memories in the first game. UNLESS you played as a light side Revan in KOTOR 1, in which case Nihilus is actually Jolee Bindo driven mad by the dark side after the events at the Star Forge, and Revan really is off to fight the Sith. It's pretty cool, when you think about it, that Obsidian was able to make a plot that changes based on how you played KOTOR 1. Incidentally, Darth Sion is actually Zaalbar. That's why he's all fractured and messed up looking, he went crazy after the evil Revan forced him to kill Mission, and he had to get all mangled to become a Sith Lord. Unless you were a good Revan in which case Darth Sion is actually Mission. Everyone clear on the plot now?

[Trom]

... a bit more.

 

You can gather many of the hegelian problem with the discussions with Hanharr. It's the them of slavery. It's really well done and the conclusion is good also. To make sure the PC is free, he vowes he would kill him without pity. It's the same idea behingd Kreia teachings. By helping the poor, you harm him because he becomes dependant of your actions, he becomes your slave. The other lesson from Kreia is to know you have sometimes to make choices that are against your moral (being the jedi one or the sith one).

 

So this games offers the real opportunity for the not light not dark side to be the winner. It's the neutral side who wins in the end. All that kreia wanted to stop was the waves from light to dark of the force. In some discussion, she talks about it. About the fact that the force uses both the jedi and the sith to reach equilibrium.

 

Sure, at the end, one side has a little power over the other, but it's a little one and it's there because true equilibrium is not possible with an instable situation (both jedi and sith want to eliminate the other).

 

That's why there is so much frustration if you are jedi or sith in the end. But just look at the situation you are neither one nor the other. Will the galaxy be better without both ? Kreia says yes. Jedi and Sith say no. In the end, the answer is not there, because it's ending at the turning point. The point where all possibilities exist. You can argue saying that the jedi are good, but the code itself is so rigid that the jedi destroy themselves the power they have and the republic is then weak because the Jedis are the core of the republic.

 

In the end, Kreia killed the force, as Nietsche killed God. Not really, not practically, but philosophically. This is the idea of the force that is killed in the galaxy. People know in Kotor2 more and more that they have to construct the republic without the jedi and the sith at the top of it. And in this, the republic is saved, for at least 5000 thousand years. It's a enormous achievment !

 

In that, this story is really, really a jewel of complexity and really well shows what is existing in our world history.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thus spake Zarathustra I think.

 

Well, this is an exceptionally well thought out analysis that rings true! I've wondered about an underlying philosophical thread, but not as deep as what you've done. First, it's the Atton Rand thing related to Ayn Rand. There is an attempt to get away from the all self-sacrificing mode of K1. But Atton Rand's behavior doesn't exactly jibe with Rand's objectivism:

 

"My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute."

 

His first name is easier. Atton = Aten (mysterious Egyptian god):

 

Aten had existed for ever, they said, he was beautiful, glorious, and self-existent, he had created the sun and his path, and heaven, and earth, and every living being and thing therein, and he maintained the life in man and beast, and fed all creatures according to his plans, and he determined the duartion of their life in man and beast. Everything came from Aten, and everything depended upon him ; he was moreover, everlasting.

 

Since Atton Rand is the only character who can "come back to life" exactly like Aten, I think the reference is clear.

 

I don't want to hijack this thread so if you'd like to continue the discussion why not create a new topic on it?

 

Lastly, not so much philosophical, but much of what is said about the Republic could be said about the United States. We bring "democracy" to foreign states, but usually they end up paying a high price. And even some of the wars were questionable about intent. A good case could be made that Korea and Viet Nam were really proxy wars against China and the USSR respectively which is exactly what happens to some of the battleground planets in KOTOR.

 

In fact, one of my more nebulous theories about why they changed the endgame is that it seems to have been developed during the War in Iraq. Maybe they were doing something like the old Star Trek series where they took every socio/political issue of the day and transformed it into an episode. If so, then perhaps a too dark ending might have been seen as an indirect criticism of US policy, something most people are avoiding these days.

[Master Dahvernas]

I have to agree with Boiler's comments that he/she made earlier on in this thread that others seemed to echo:

 

The Sith Lords is just a mess of non-connected "set pieces" (battles; discussions; cut-scenes) that doesn't really have a cohesive plot to it. It brings up a LOT of good ideas, both philosophical and ideological... But the execution -- key -- Is slip shod at best and very unprofessional even for a video game. I blame LA for the impossible deadline of just one year for a game of this size and scope. It is just not possible and what we have is the unfortunate result.

 

The biggest flaw with this game is that, along with what others have said about just glossing over certain key story elements that are just left hanging is...

 

This game makes the cardinal sin of using a "Deus EX Machina" ending/plot twist once the Jedi Council "re-exiles" you and Kriea's master plan is revealed (if you can all it that).

 

A Deus Ex Machina ending is one where the storytellers literally pull out of thin air plot and story elements simply because they've written themselves into a corner. Not only is this sloppy storytelling, it also runs the very big risk of making the audience, in this case, the gamer, feel cheated -- because unlike KOTORI, there are no subtle clues that you can piece together to come to the SAME conclusion like you did when it was revealed that the PC was Revan -- And I think this is exactly why everyone keeps saying they aren't emotionally satisfied with the endings (regardless of what side you play).

 

The fact that someone has to come to a forum and ask what the producers intended becuase they left so many questions unanswered is a pure sign of sloppy storytelling and is much different from asking for different interpretations because the original poster is asking "What the Hell is going on when I play this game" versus "What do you make of this element?" Those are two VERY different things and like I said, as a storyteller, you don't want the former to be the main reason your work is discussed.

[manitsbuggy]

Orchomene said,

 

But I think (contrary to many here as it seems) that it's a good end, ok, a frustrating and a bit quick one with too many fights, but it avoids a lame conclusion like "creating a new jedi school or sith school".

 

I disagree however with your conclusions. Your philosophical examination I think is very good but does good philosophy make for good gaming?

 

Basic ideas are game is supposed to be fun and have rewards, tangible rewards, items, cut scenes, skills, etc. A person invests 50+ hours in a game especially a sequel they at least expect a similarl nice conclusion with quality endings.

 

Think about it nobody plays middle of road characters, maybe a few people. Most play all dark or all light. The rewards should justify the effort.

 

Light side characters should destroy Melanchor, reestablish jedi counsel, jedi academy finish npc character intereactions. Its not lame, or wrong its what a jedi would do.

 

Dark side character would not destroy Melanchor, students would come, he would train them, Kreia would of given him a new title upon her death, Darth