What annoyed you about KOTOR's plot?

[jedipodo]

You haven't seem Ep3 yet. The actual downfall has still to come.

[Nur Ab Sal]

Yeah and Anakin exists both in the movies and in the EU... we aren't speaking about his image in the movies, we speak about his image in general.

 

I believe that Hayden's performance will be much better in EIII. Hamill in

New Hope was even more pathetic than Hayden in AOTC, and yet later he improved his acting.

[Wulfram]

Yeah everybody worships Revan but nobody remembers that he killed more people than Hitler.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think that was actually one of the big failings of KoTOR 1. The evil of Revan is very underplayed, which to me rather robbed the revelation of it's impact. It also weakened the redemption theme, since it was hard to feel I had any guilt to be redeemed, and made it harder to sympathise with some of the NPCs attitudes towards you.

 

Before you know of your past, I think the crimes of Revan should have been very explicitly shown to you, through seeing worlds that were devestated by him and people who had personally suffered because of his actions.

[Nur Ab Sal]

Agreed. It should be included in the cutscenes.

 

Besides road to redemption is always very tough one. Ulic Qel Droma commited

similar crimes and it took him 10 years to gain forgiveness, Kyp Durron also struggled for years to recover from his sith past and Republic always treated him as a scum (even when he became member of the Jedi Council). And here we have Revan who only kills Malak and becouse of that entire Jedi Council bows before him. It was very naive, really I didn't feel any redemption and depth of Revan's complicated fate. It was just crappy.

 

 

"Oh Revan you have killed billions of people and almost wiped out the Republic and the Jedi, but in the end you also killed Malak and you are our hero!"

 

This makes no sense.

[jedipodo]

I think this is also a question of someone's unsterstanding of justice. Somebody who lost all his memory and identity, does he have to account for his past doings?

[Cailous]

This topic is interesting. The only problem I had with KotOR was the fact that you could not turn Jolee to the darkside, and if you had indeed taken the dark path, you were forced to slay him. That is why I like the idea of turning some characters to the darkside in this one, because you can shape them into something more to your liking.

 

Jolee cutting down random wookies... Who would not find that ammusing, satisfying even?

[Nur Ab Sal]

I think this is also a question of someone's unsterstanding of justice. Somebody who lost all his memory and identity, does he have to account for his past doings?

 

This is a question of social responsibility. The fact that someone lost his memory

shouldn't mean that he is innocent. Tell it to the victims of the Revan's scourge.

I think that they wouldn't understand celebrations that Jedi Council prepared for Revan.

 

And even if Revan himself forgot everything there are witnesses, holonet news from the frontlines and galaxy in general remembers that war. So in time he would learn about his past much more.

[Ludozee]

I think this is also a question of someone's unsterstanding of justice. Somebody who lost all his memory and identity, does he have to account for his past doings?

 

This is a question of social responsibility. The fact that someone lost his memory

shouldn't mean that he is innocent. Tell it to the victims of the Revan's scourge.

I think that they wouldn't understand celebrations that Jedi Council prepared for Revan.

 

And even if Revan himself forgot everything there are witnesses, holonet news from the frontlines and galaxy in general remembers that war. So in time he would learn about his past much more.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, but fact is, you can't hold Revan responsibel for his actions in the past: The Jedi created a comlpete new personality, The body is all that remains of Revan. So the Jedi order praises the new personality for his actions, not Revan.

[jedipodo]

I think this is also a question of someone's unsterstanding of justice. Somebody who lost all his memory and identity, does he have to account for his past doings?

 

This is a question of social responsibility. The fact that someone lost his memory

shouldn't mean that he is innocent. Tell it to the victims of the Revan's scourge.

I think that they wouldn't understand celebrations that Jedi Council prepared for Revan.

 

And even if Revan himself forgot everything there are witnesses, holonet news from the frontlines and galaxy in general remembers that war. So in time he would learn about his past much more.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Then all of this redemption in SW would be highly questionable. Why do they forgive all of the refined darksiders? Why don't they punish them or put them to death? That is the same issue I think.

 

ps.: And I think the common people in the galaxy have resigned trying to understand the ways of the Jedi. So they wouldn't have a big problem with it.

[Nur Ab Sal]

Yeah, but fact is, you can't hold Revan responsibel for his actions in the past: The Jedi created a comlpete new personality, The body is all that remains of Revan. So the Jedi order praises the new personality for his actions, not Revan.

 

And yet when you choose DS ending his new personality proves to be a joke, and a true Revan is revealed.

 

I admit that this whole concept is interesting, the problem is that Revan is very undeveloped character, in contradiction to NPCs.

 

Then all of this redemption in SW would be highly questionable. Why do they forgive all of the refined darksiders? Why don't they punish them or put them to death? That is the same issue I think.

 

Becouse their personal redemption was long and convincing and they were never

treated as heroes again. And Revan is treated as a hero. His way to regain position as a galactic hero is quick and easy and it should be long and difficult.

Not just killing Malak and destroying starforge junk.

[random evil guy]

Yeah and Anakin exists both in the movies and in the EU... we aren't speaking about his image in the movies, we speak about his image in general.

 

I believe that Hayden's performance will be much better in EIII. Hamill in

New Hope was even more pathetic than Hayden in AOTC, and yet later he improved his acting.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

i hope so, but i highly doubt it. george lucas' writing sucks a**. the dialouge is both superficial and corny.

 

if it weren''t for ewan mcgregor and christopher lee; the acting and dialogue in ep.2 would be an all time low...

[jedipodo]

Becouse their personal redemption was long and convincing and they were never

treated as heroes again. And Revan is treated as a hero. His way to regain position as a galactic hero is quick and easy and it should be long and difficult.

Not just killing Malak and destroying starforge junk.

 

He was a hero of the Mandalorian Wars and the second time he destroyed Malak and the Star Forge. Yes, he has once been a badass, but he has been a true hero twice for compensation.

 

Edit: And how could this "personal redemption" of a PC be simulated in a game?

[Nur Ab Sal]

Ulic Qel Droma was similar hero but his redemption was painful and thus convincing. Sorry I understand limits of a video game but Revan's redemption is crappy. It could be shown better.

 

And how could this "personal redemption" of a PC be simulated in a game?

 

It is impossible. And that's why devs shouldn't waste their time on some Revan/memory flashback/redemption stuff. Instead you should play young Jedi padawan with great potential (like Anakin in AOTC) that can become great hero or great villain (like Anakin did).

 

It would be more fun to have truly customized hero, not the one who was customized by the devs.

[Ivan the Terrible]

*shakes head sadly*

 

only characters that sacrifice is obi and vader?  we wonder if leia would agree.  she were tortured and saw her home planet destroyed, no?

 

Eh. Bastila, Carth, and Revan are all tortured as well....and Carth even loses his family and home planet. Bastila then sacrifices herself so you can get away (even if, technically, you were smacking Malak around like a cheap Thai whore and her 'help' only interferes with bringing the game to a much swifter conclusion), unaware that she'll be rescued.

 

don't forget luke's sacrifice neither.  luke may survive his plunge into the void, but clearly he does not believe that he is escaping.

 

If we're speaking of sacrifice in theory (as in, they willingly face their fate but that fate doesn't come), then the same thing applies to Bastila; she doesn't know she'll end up being rescued after the Leviathan, but she certainly must know she'll either die or be relentlessly tortured by Malak in the interim.

 

why bring up yoda?  yoda not need to be redeemed, did he?  maybe you not get redemption.

 

For that matter, why bring up Leia? Unless there's something the movies don't say about Leia's insidiously evil past, she doesn't need to be redeemed anymore than Yoda.

 

Really, I think we're both going in circles here. The bottom line is: outside of the prequels, I think the 'redemption' storyline is a secondary one in the Star Wars movies. It's a plotline, but not the plotline (unless you accept Lucas's apparently ex post facto idea that the whole series revolves around Anakin/Vader rather than Luke), and if the series had focused mostly on that instead of the story of Luke Skywalker and company saving the Galaxy, it would have been drug out of the whole Flash Gordon action/adventure genre and into something darker.....which, again, I wouldn't mind, but I can see why Bioware chose to avoid.

 

You disagree. Precisely what more is there to say?

[Ivan the Terrible]

Edit: And how could this "personal redemption" of a PC be simulated in a game?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Simple enough. Confront the character with abundant, personal evidence of what his past self has done to the Galaxy at large, as well as individuals.

 

Think Planescape: Torment. You're facing the results of your past incarnation's actions all around you.....not just on a grand scale of opening a sort of Pandora's Box for everyone else's wickedness (like Revan starting a campaign to conquer the Galaxy, but most of the really gruesome stuff being attributed to Malak), but in the very personal appearance of people whose lives your past incarnations have destroyed.

 

If, by the time we had received the revelation, we conceived of Revan as a total and complete monster rather than a sort of vaguely understood dead Sith Lord, pursuing redemption might have been more interesting.

[Judge Hades]

Hmmm...

 

I can list quite a number of things that annoyed me with the plot of KotOR.

 

First off everything was forced fed. You were forced to save Bastila. You were forced to have certain NPCs in the group. You were forced to have certain events happen. In a CRPG choice is what matters. You need to have the ability to choose how the story goes and how your character develops. Without choice its not a CRPG.

 

Another thing I hate about the plot of KotOR the writers of Bioware made a major amateurish mistake of overusing foreshadow. There was no story twists, no surprise, nothing for me because of this. By the time your character knew he was Revan, any reasonably intelligent human being would have figured that out hours ago. Add the fact that there was no conversation bit to reflect this was downright insulting. Bioware seemed to assume that their players are morons.

 

Malak: You are Revan.

PC: So?

Malak: So... Um... Does that upset you?

PC: Oh, come off it, Malak. I knew I was Revan all along.

Bastila: You DID!

PC: Its not like a huge secret by the way the council acted. Sheesh. Shouldn't we be killing each other right about now?

 

Anyway there are other things that annoyed me with KotOR's plot but I'll save them for later.

[jedipodo]

You were forced to save Bastila.

Killing her after she's gone crazy was also a good option.

 

You were forced to have certain events happen.

Some would call it fate.

 

In a CRPG choice is what matters.  You need to have the ability to choose how the story goes and how your character develops.  Without choice its not a CRPG.

CRPG = Choice Role-Playing Game

 

Another thing I hate about the plot of KotOR the writers of Bioware made a major amateurish mistake of overusing foreshadow.  There was no story twists, no surprise, nothing for me because of this.  By the time your character knew he was Revan, any reasonably intelligent human being would have figured that out hours ago.

If I would have played it a good dozen of times, as you probably did, I would say exactly the same...

 

Bioware seemed to assume that their players are morons.

What's wrong about this one?

 

Malak:  You are Revan.

PC:  So?

Malak:  So...  Um...  Does that upset you?

PC:  Oh, come off it, Malak.  I knew I was Revan all along.

Bastila:  You DID!

PC:  Its not like a huge secret by the way the council acted.  Sheesh.  Shouldn't we be killing each other right about now?

Nice play.

[Gromnir]

*shakes head sadly*

 

only characters that sacrifice is obi and vader?  we wonder if leia would agree.  she were tortured and saw her home planet destroyed, no?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And what happened to Bastila? She was also tortured and had what was effectively her home on Dantooine destroyed. She will also have to live (if she does live) with the memory of having become everything she dedicated her life to fighting. All to save the man largely responsible for the near destruction of the Jedi Order and the republic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

bastilla FAILS... she succumbs to malak's torture. you not recall that? and as to dantooine being destroyed, did anybody here feels bad for her when that happened? did she seem as if she were really saddened by such things? 'course maybe you can argue that as a jedi she would not show emotion... but did you, the reader feel particularly bad 'bout dantooine? is just one of the examples of bad writing in kotor. heck, unlike leia who is told that "in a way" she has chosen aldderan to be destroyed, you find out that dantooine is glassed regardless... has nothing to do with you.

 

"For that matter, why bring up Leia? Unless there's something the movies don't say about Leia's insidiously evil past, she doesn't need to be redeemed anymore than Yoda"

 

we didn't... save in responding to you when you got sidetracked. we talks 'bout redemption, and you start talking generally 'bout sacrifice.... says that there is no star wars characters who do any sacrificing... which is patently bull.

 

as to heroic sacrifice... yeah, bastilla sacrifices herself so you can get away from malak... but then she becomes his disciple after a couple of days of torture. oops. heck, even bastilla's sacrifice were a weak thing. where were the pathos? at end of Empire, when vader announces that he is luke's father and luke chooses to sacrifice self rather than join vader, tells us what you the viewer felt. you feel any such emotions for bastilla when she stays behind on the leviathan? bio had numerous opportunities... and they fumbles most of 'em.

 

"If, by the time we had received the revelation, we conceived of Revan as a total and complete monster rather than a sort of vaguely understood dead Sith Lord, pursuing redemption might have been more interesting. "

 

you can see how bio didn't develop revan as a redemptive character, but you is still arguing that they did a good job? is you arguing just to argue?

 

redemption is a key theme in kotor... many characters feels they need to be redeemed for some past failure. jolee and bastilla and juhani and revan (possibly) and others... and that theme, which is an aspect of, but different from heroic sacrifice, were generally handled badly in kotor... and lord only knows why folks would even attempt to defend this aspect of kotor.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[random evil guy]

*shakes head sadly*

 

only characters that sacrifice is obi and vader?  we wonder if leia would agree.  she were tortured and saw her home planet destroyed, no?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And what happened to Bastila? She was also tortured and had what was effectively her home on Dantooine destroyed. She will also have to live (if she does live) with the memory of having become everything she dedicated her life to fighting. All to save the man largely responsible for the near destruction of the Jedi Order and the republic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

[]... and lord only knows why folks would even attempt to defend this aspect of kotor.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

i know. people have different opinions?!? i mean, come on!!!

[Siorfin]

Perhaps the most effective form of redemption is realizing you cannot redeem what you have done yet those whom you sinned against in whatever way forgive and forget welcoming you back into the fold anyways. It seems to me that everyone thinks the redemption of a character must cost something so bioware has in essence achieved a twist by giving redemption to one who has done nothing to even attempt earning it save admitting tey were wrong.

[GhostofAnakin]

For those who say that KOTOR failed in their "Redemption" theme, what would you suggest they should have done instead? Could you provide some examples of what you think should have taken place?

 

I'm asking an honest question, because most replies have been about how they did things wrong, but haven't really stated how they should have done it.

[GarethCarrots]

i think that they SHOULD of had a longer cutscene at the end, to show the effects you had on the galaxy, there was a big anticlimax at the end, you beat malak saved/doomed the galaxy and thats it

[Nur Ab Sal]

I've already told how I think the correct storyline should look:

 

devs shouldn't waste their time on some Revan/memory flashback/redemption stuff. Instead you should play young Jedi padawan with great potential (like Anakin in AOTC) that can become great hero or great villain (like Anakin did).

 

It would be more fun to have truly customized hero, not the one who was customized by the devs.

[Laozi]

Revan's story was pretty consistant with most that goes on in the EU especially if you chose his/her name to be something like Rotcha Cokkoff or Darius Dar

 

Revan was obviously in the eyes of the general populus a hero on the one hand, defeating the Mandalorians and later a villian for "reawakening the sith. I don't really recall him killing the millions outside of military combat that it would take to be on the same lines as Hitler or Stalin, Stalin probaly killed agreat deal more people then Hitler BTW.

 

The plot was somewhat thin and definitely obvious at times, and I do believe that it would take more than a couple of cut scenes to fix it. Upon Revans revelation some definite lines should be drawn within the party depending on your reaction to this and I think atleast one member should have left no matter what path you choose from then on.

 

Obviously this alone wouldn't fix the game, but it would be a start

[Nur Ab Sal]

Agreed.