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What annoyed you about KOTOR's plot?


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Let's face it: even though it was a very entertaining game, KOTOR was also overflowing with plot holes and inconsistencies.

 

Depending on the character asked, the Sith either retreated into their Empire and are now resurgent or these Sith are a whole new group formed by Revan and Malak. Ask Master Vandar about Malak and he'll tell you that 'Hate and vengeance for his master's death' are driving Malak down the Dark Side....when Malak was the one who tried to kill his master. The Sith are supposed to be hunting Bastila tirelessly, and yet you can wander freely about Taris with Bastila in your party holding a double-bladed lightsaber right past Sith troopers without them batting an eyelash.

 

So this is the thread for those moments; the times when 'little things' cropped up which didn't all-out destroy the game, but certainly came across as annoying and poorly thought out. Which ones stick out most to you?

I made this half-pony half-monkey monster to please you

But I get the feeling that you don't like it

What's with all the screaming?

You like monkeys, you like ponies

Maybe you don't like monsters so much

Maybe I used too many monkeys

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maybe Malaks Jedi master died .. ?

But the worst one was being able to run around with Bastilla on Taris .. That really annoyed me, so I didn't use her there to keep some kind of consistency!

And I really hoped some of the Sith on Korriban would recognice me as Revan, but they didn't .. :wub:

Fortune favors the bald.

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maybe Malaks Jedi master died .. ?

 

A stretch, considering he was just talking about Revan being killed and no other Master is mentioned for Malak. Not a big deal, but an eye-rolling moment.

I made this half-pony half-monkey monster to please you

But I get the feeling that you don't like it

What's with all the screaming?

You like monkeys, you like ponies

Maybe you don't like monsters so much

Maybe I used too many monkeys

Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?

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Let's face it: even though it was a very entertaining game, KOTOR was also overflowing with plot holes and inconsistencies.

 

Depending on the character asked, the Sith either retreated into their Empire and are now resurgent or these Sith are a whole new group formed by Revan and Malak. Ask Master Vandar about Malak and he'll tell you that 'Hate and vengeance for his master's death' are driving Malak down the Dark Side....when Malak was the one who tried to kill his master. The Sith are supposed to be hunting Bastila tirelessly, and yet you can wander freely about Taris with Bastila in your party holding a double-bladed lightsaber right past Sith troopers without them batting an eyelash.

 

So this is the thread for those moments; the times when 'little things' cropped up which didn't all-out destroy the game, but certainly came across as annoying and poorly thought out. Which ones stick out most to you?

 

I never noticed those remarks until it was mentioned at the Bioware forums.

"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

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Ask Master Vandar about Malak and he'll tell you that 'Hate and vengeance for his master's death' are driving Malak down the Dark Side....when Malak was the one who tried to kill his master.

Well, I think there are two possible explanations for that. First, the Jedi lied to the PC, plain and simple. Telling the PC all that BS would probably be easier than telling the truth and facing the questions that would arise. After all the Jedi did use you, DS or LS.

The other explanation is the Obi-Wan quote about things depending on how you look at them. After all, hate and rage are what drove Malak to betray Revan in the first place. It's a long shot, but I don't think that is a mistake on Bioware's part.

 

What I didn't really like is that you had to go through all the errand-boy stuff in Korriban, if you played it after you discovered your identity. It just doesn't make sense. The Dark Lord of the Sith wouldn't waste his time with such petty matters. He would just instead choke to death anyone who dared to oppose him.

- When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.

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what bothered us 'bout the kotor plot?

 

redemption w/o sacrifice is bad writing. maybe bioware wanted possibility of happy endings

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Well, I think there are two possible explanations for that. First, the Jedi lied to the PC, plain and simple. Telling the PC all that BS would probably be easier than telling the truth and facing the questions that would arise. After all the Jedi did use you, DS or LS.

 

A good thought, but I never recall them lying about Malak turning against Revan at any other point.

 

The other explanation is the Obi-Wan quote about things depending on how you look at them. After all, hate and rage are what drove Malak to betray Revan in the first place. It's a long shot, but I don't think that is a mistake on Bioware's part.

 

The rage I understand; the 'vengeance' doesn't add up. How do you 'avenge' the death of someone you happily murdered? Saying Malak is fueled by 'vengeance for his master's death' makes no more sense than saying Darth Vader is fueled by his lust for vengeance against the one who killed Obi-Wan Kenobi.

I made this half-pony half-monkey monster to please you

But I get the feeling that you don't like it

What's with all the screaming?

You like monkeys, you like ponies

Maybe you don't like monsters so much

Maybe I used too many monkeys

Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?

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Let's face it: even though it was a very entertaining game, KOTOR was also overflowing with plot holes and inconsistencies.

 

] The Sith are supposed to be hunting Bastila tirelessly, and yet you can wander freely about Taris with Bastila in your party holding a double-bladed lightsaber right past Sith troopers without them batting an eyelash.

 

So this is the thread for those moments; the times when 'little things' cropped up which didn't all-out destroy the game, but certainly came across as annoying and poorly thought out. Which ones stick out most to you?

 

 

I thought that was O.K. I mean otherwise you couldn't use Bastilla on two planets, three if you don't go to Korriban last. What I didn't like was that no one on Korriban recognized you. Surely some of the jedis that you either trained with or had some time of interaction with had to be there as it said many followed you in the Mandalorian war. Atleast on Datoonie you could say that the Masters told everyone not to say anything.

People laugh when I say that I think a jellyfish is one of the most beautiful things in the world. What they don't understand is, I mean a jellyfish with long, blond hair.

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Not sure if it's really "plot", but the thing that has always stood out for me that I didn't like was how no matter if you were a level 1 nothing on Taris, or a level 20 Sith Lord with the DS oozing out of your pores, but everyone hostile towards you remained hostile with no differentiating actions. It would have been so much better if those who realized you were Revan would then shrink back from you and either side with you, or get out of your way.

"Console exclusive is such a harsh word." - Darque

"Console exclusive is two words Darque." - Nartwak (in response to Darque's observation)

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not to mention that noone reacted perticuarly different towards you if you were on a clear path to DS .. I mean Bastilla should've been a little mre concerned or someone should've stepped in! You don't see many Jedis turning gray with glowing yellow eyes without anyone reacting on it! :)

of course they did say "this is not the way of a Jedi" but come on .. They should've been a little more worried about one of the strongest Jedi turning DS again ..

Fortune favors the bald.

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what bothered us 'bout the kotor plot?

 

redemption w/o sacrifice is bad writing.  maybe bioware wanted possibility of happy endings

"Things are funny...are comedic, because they mix the real with the absurd." - Buzz Aldrin.

"P-O-T-A-T-O-E" - Dan Quayle

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Not sure if it's really "plot", but the thing that has always stood out for me that I didn't like was how no matter if you were a level 1 nothing on Taris, or a level 20 Sith Lord with the DS oozing out of your pores, but everyone hostile towards you remained hostile with no differentiating actions.  It would have been so much better if those who realized you were Revan would then shrink back from you and either side with you, or get out of your way.

 

 

Thats a very good point, I guess thats why it seems like such a big focal point on the new game

People laugh when I say that I think a jellyfish is one of the most beautiful things in the world. What they don't understand is, I mean a jellyfish with long, blond hair.

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what bothered us 'bout the kotor plot?

 

redemption w/o sacrifice is bad writing.  maybe bioware wanted possibility of happy endings

I made this half-pony half-monkey monster to please you

But I get the feeling that you don't like it

What's with all the screaming?

You like monkeys, you like ponies

Maybe you don't like monsters so much

Maybe I used too many monkeys

Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?

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"A third possibility was that they were going for a more original 'Star Wars' feel....and in Star Wars (as opposed to The Empire Strikes Back) the movie ends with the smiling heroes all receiving medals for their bravery, not Luke sacrificing himself to blow up the Death Star."

 

this theory might work... if we completely ignored stuff like the Revan Revelation. bio definitely wanted the cheerful ending of the first star wars flick, but they were quite obviously and intentionally following the story arc of the original trilogy o

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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this theory might work... if we completely ignored stuff like the Revan Revelation.  bio definitely wanted the cheerful ending of the first star wars flick, but they were quite obviously and intentionally following the story arc of the original trilogy o

I made this half-pony half-monkey monster to please you

But I get the feeling that you don't like it

What's with all the screaming?

You like monkeys, you like ponies

Maybe you don't like monsters so much

Maybe I used too many monkeys

Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

what is the point of redemption w/o sacrifice? sacrifice is include precisely to give meaning to the redemption. imagine spider-man 2's doc oc w/o sacrifice... or vader. if choice

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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"If you're talking about Darth Vader, given that he spent 99% of the original movies as the biggest baddest villain around, I think it bears a rather distinct difference from sacrificing the protagonist, which is the role you play as Revan."

 

you make assumptions.... and get sidetracked.

 

Revan Revelation 2/3 through game reminded you of what? is just the most glaring example of a post episode 4 plot point that made it into kotor.

 

however, trying to explain away need for revan redemption completely ignores fact that REDEMPTION were clearly a theme in kotor just as it were in star wars... and while star wars had characters who made meaningful sacrifices, kotor did not.

 

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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I just thought of a scenario where a sacrifice by Jolee could have meant something in the overall scheme of things.

 

On the Rakata unknown world when Revan is about to enter the temple, Jolee comes running up and says he has a bad feeling about this. The Rakatans say that only Revan can enter to avoid what happened last time. So then Jolee is faced with a dilemna; to appease the Rakatan, Jolee can either agree to stay within the temple for eternity once he enters, so that he can help Revan with his quest, or he can decide he's not going to sacrifice himself and thus Revan must enter the temple alone.

 

In other words, Jolee agreeing to the stipulation that he must live the rest of his days within the temple should he enter would be him sacrificing himself for Revan and the galaxy's destiny.

"Console exclusive is such a harsh word." - Darque

"Console exclusive is two words Darque." - Nartwak (in response to Darque's observation)

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I just thought of a scenario where a sacrifice by Jolee could have meant something in the overall scheme of things.

 

On the Rakata unknown world when Revan is about to enter the temple, Jolee comes running up and says he has a bad feeling about this.  The Rakatans say that only Revan can enter to avoid what happened last time.  So then Jolee is faced with a dilemna;  to appease the Rakatan, Jolee can either agree to stay within the temple for eternity once he enters, so that he can help Revan with his quest, or he can decide he's not going to sacrifice himself and thus Revan must enter the temple alone.

 

In other words, Jolee agreeing to the stipulation that he must live the rest of his days within the temple should he enter would be him sacrificing himself for Revan and the galaxy's destiny.

 

oh that would've been a mean dialouge were you try to talk Jolee out of it .. I'm pretty sure he would have done it!

I especially felt attached to Jolee, he really felt like a mentor.. So that would have been a great twist .. And I would've felt truely bad about it if he would have sacrificed himself for me!

Fortune favors the bald.

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however, trying to explain away need for revan redemption completely ignores fact that REDEMPTION were clearly a theme in kotor just as it were in star wars... and while star wars had characters who made meaningful sacrifices, kotor did not. 

 

"Meaningful sacrifices"?

 

Yoda just dies of old age. Han Solo gets frozen in carbonite....for a little while. At the end of the third movie, all the main good guys (Luke, Han, Leia, Chewbacca, and the droids) are all not only alive and kicking, but celebrating a completely one-sided victory while being watched approvingly by the smiling ghosts of the only dead major good guys in the movies.

 

The only big sacrifices come from Kenobi and Vader, the first of whom lets himself be killed with the only major repercussions being, apparently, that he's blue and transparent while holding long conversations with people.

 

The issue of Vader is thus the Big One, the real sticking point....and given the difference in roles for Vader and Revan, I simply don't think it compares unless you ignore the original films and get into the prequels, which I think KOTOR largely ignores in favor of what attracted so many people to the series in the first place.

 

Thus, Bioware's choice not to go that route can be attributed to more than just 'ignorance' or 'cowardice'; it can be attributed also to a conscious desire to remake the feel of the first film, and causing the main character (who, if you're playing a solid Light Side character, is about as guilty of Revan's crimes as Dr. Jekyll is guilty of the actions of Mr. Hyde....perhaps even less so, since the present Revan isn't even responsible for his condition) to die gruesomely pursuing his redemption isn't exactly the sort of ending that fits the mood.

I made this half-pony half-monkey monster to please you

But I get the feeling that you don't like it

What's with all the screaming?

You like monkeys, you like ponies

Maybe you don't like monsters so much

Maybe I used too many monkeys

Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?

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