Light Side Powers

[nightcleaver]

Actually, cops are told to incapacitate if at all possible, and only when they or another is in direct danger from the person are they allowed to use excessive force. In practice, this isn't completely enforceable, but the Force in Star Wars never turns it's eye, so to speak. In star wars, Good and Evil is determined by the Force and perhaps, to a lesser extent, law and the Council, but in real life it's law and the individual's choice.

[Stargate: 2000]

Actually, cops are told to incapacitate if at all possible, and only when they or another is in direct danger from the person are they allowed to use excessive force.  In practice, this isn't completely enforceable, but the Force in Star Wars never turns it's eye, so to speak.  In star wars, Good and Evil is determined by the Force and perhaps, to a lesser extent, law and the Council, but in real life it's law and the individual's choice.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All I was meaning by saying that they are like a cop was that they were obligated to interject and try to stop the violence by whatever means, most times cops can get around killing (like a jedi) but sometimes they must kill in order to protect the peace (also like a jedi).

[Sorall Loskannen]

The argument is not whether the Jedi must kill to protect the innocent, but the methods used to do so. The Jedi's available methods are strictly laid out in terms of not using the force to attack (attacking a rapist or another form of criminal is still attacking), no matter how justifiable it may seem to the people who witness such an event. For instance, if someone is holding a knife/vibroblade in someone's face and threatening to use it, the Jedi could use the force to knock the person or weapon away, but could not fry him with lightning.

For the Jedi, the Force is sacred. It's their god, and the Jedi code is their religion. It would be considered sacreligious, and a defilement of all they hold true if they were to use the force itself to cause harm, let alone death. This has about the same significance as murdering a priest in a church, during Sunday service. It just isn't acceptable. While there are those who would do it, it is a defilement of their beliefs and is, to say the least, frowned upon.

[SilverSun]

nightcleaver:

 

Your post on the Jedi Code was an interesting one,nice.

 

I would agree over all that reasons behind the Jedi Code and how strict it is comes from trying to prevent people who don't fully understand what they're involved in. But sometimes having too many rules,no matter how the good the reasons,can cause more problems then good. In the attempt to protect the young Jedi you leave them with out the know how to deal with a part(s) of life they're bound to come in contact with. And on top of that you cause the to miss out on parts of life that help people understand better what they're fighting for and life is something that should be protected.

[SilverSun]

attacking a rapist or another form of criminal is still attacking

 

Technically it's not an attack unless it's done after the threat is removed. IE,in your example if the Jedi pushed/used lighting/some other agrressive means of the Force to remove the threat from the innocent,it's defense. The very moment the threat is removed however it becomes an attack. Which is where that fine line I've been talking about comes in. The aggressive use of the Force would need to be stopped the moment the person holding the blade was away from the innocent. And no other agressive action taken unless the person presented himself/herself as a threat again. Would it be dangerous to do so? Yes because the line can be crossed in a heartbeat and that could be trouble. Not something I would think young(in experience not age) Jedi or Padawans should try,however I have no problem thinking a more experienced Jedi Knight or Master could do so if need be.

[phyre]

Consider this for a brief moment. In order to perform any attack through the force, whether it be a choke or a blast of lightning, there must be negative emotions driving it. Think about it, how could you manipulate a power as awesome as the Force, to use as a weapon against another sentient being unless there was hate, anger, or a strong desire to cause harm, all of which are strongly associated with the Darkside.

 

Imagine an innocent person in danger. Failing diplomacy, a true Jedi Master would intervene by forcing the attacker into submission by using either the Force to remove the attacker's weapon or prevent them from attacking or using his saber to incapacitate. Only as a last ditch maneuver, when all viable options have failed, would a Jedi kill another sentient with his saber. He would never manipulate the Force in such a way as to take the life of another being, no matter how you justify it, even if that puts the Jedi at a disadvantage. Maintaining strict discipline to the Jedi Code is what prevents the Jedi from giving in to the temptations posed by the power of the Force. Using the force as a weapon, to hurt or kill, would require the Jedi to release the strict reign on his emotions for just a moment, and to tap into anger, fury, and hate. The more a Jedi uses the force as a weapon, the easier it becomes to abuse it, which is the trap that ultimately leads to the Darkside.

[SilverSun]

...The more a Jedi uses the force as a weapon, the easier it becomes to abuse it...

 

A weapon is both a tool of Defense and Offense. Saying that using the Force as a weapon will lead to abuse is slightly off.

 

In order to perform any attack through the force, whether it be a choke or a blast of lightning, there must be negative emotions driving it.

 

The Force in the SW Universe isn't broken up into a power tree like it is in a game. To mannipulate the Force all you need is skill and training to do so. Lighting could be used as Defense as easy as Offense,how it's used would decide which it was.

 

He would never manipulate the Force in such a way as to take the life ...

 

One should never say never. Besides one can survive a blast of lighting,or a choke or a push or a throw,just as examples. You're right that a Jedi most likely wouldn't go out of their way to kill someone if it could be avoided. However that's not the same as not using an aggressive defense,if it could protect another's life from harm. Who's the Jedi going to have more care for? The attacker or the one being attacked? That doesn't mean the Jedi doesn't value life,but they're sworn to proetect the innocent. If doing so meant using the Force in such a way as to remove a threat via some kind of aggressive defense,some would take it,others would not but that doesn't make it the DS option. The Force is used in lightsaber combat,think it's the same thing or not,the Force is used to help the Jedi fight. They don't want to kill or hurt with their saber but will if need be,as you pointed out. Some have used more aggressive style of saber fighting,as such using a more aggressive side of the Force,to help them protect life. They're still Jedi for doing so. Is it something any Jedi could do? No,it would take a large amount of control to do something like that,which some simply wouldn't be able to pull off.

 

Think about it, how could you manipulate a power as awesome as the Force, to use as a weapon against another sentient being unless there was hate, anger, or a strong desire to cause harm, all of which are strongly associated with the Darkside.

 

So Luke,in ROTJ,was using anger?Hate?A strong desire to cause harm? Didn't seem that way to me,he didn't pick the fight,he didn't make them stand in his way,however he was going to get by them. He didn't seem to be filled with anger or hate. Aggressive is not something that only DS have,LS can be aggressive. They don't start fights,they don't go out of their way to harm others but that doesn't mean,in certain situations,they won't react in an aggressive style if the reason is the protection of life.

[Hysteria0730]

The Force in the SW Universe isn't broken up into a power tree like it is in a game. To mannipulate the Force all you need is skill and training to do so.

Ok, so in any game we can have offensive light side power. But since the game tries to depict the force as it is done in the Starwars universe, it is wrong to have offensive light side powers.

 

 

 

However that's not the same as not using an aggressive defense,if it could protect another's life from harm. Who's the Jedi going to have more care for? The attacker or the one being attacked?

That's why they say "there is no emotion".

It depends. I don't think a Jedi will use offensive force to take a life from a person to save another persons life. Like Phyre said a true Jedi Master would intervene by forcing the attacker into submission by using either the Force to remove the attacker's weapon or prevent them from attacking or using his saber to incapacitate. There is always an option.

 

 

 

That doesn't mean the Jedi doesn't value life,but they're sworn to proetect the innocent. If doing so meant using the Force in such a way as to remove a threat via some kind of aggressive defense,some would take it,others would not but that doesn't make it the DS option.

I think it does, it will take them closer to the dark side.

 

 

 

The Force is used in lightsaber combat,think it's the same thing or not,the Force is used to help the Jedi fight. They don't want to kill or hurt with their saber but will if need be,as you pointed out. Some have used more aggressive style of saber fighting,as such using a more aggressive side of the Force,to help them protect life. They're still Jedi for doing so. Is it something any Jedi could do? No,it would take a large amount of control to do something like that,which some simply wouldn't be able to pull off.

I am not sure about lightsabers, but the jedi mostly use it for defence. They don't fight for the sole purpose of killing. That will make them emotional or hateful and angry.

 

 

 

So Luke,in ROTJ,was using anger?Hate?A strong desire to cause harm? Didn't seem that way to me,he didn't pick the fight,he didn't make them stand in his way,however he was going to get by them.

And I don't remember about Luke.. I mean it been many years since I saw the movie. If he used choke then it must have brought him closer to the dark side. Could even have played a small part in the angry lashing out at his father near the end (well it took a little goading on Ani's part too). But he always had a choice and in the end choose the light path.

 

 

 

Aggressive is not something that only DS have,LS can be aggressive. They don't start fights,they don't go out of their way to harm others but that doesn't mean,in certain situations,they won't react in an aggressive style if the reason is the protection of life.

Of course they can do that but using the force in an aggressive manner will always be related to the dark side.

[Hysteria0730]

Disregard all that Luke stuff, I'm a noob at StarWars

 

Edited Like=Luke

[SilverSun]

Ok, so in any game we can have offensive light side power. But since the game tries to depict the force as it is done in the Starwars universe, it is wrong to have offensive light side powers.

 

It beign wrong or not is pry a debate that will go on until the end of time.

 

That's why they say "there is no emotion".

It depends. I don't think a Jedi will use offensive force to take a life from a person to save another persons life. Like Phyre said a true Jedi Master would intervene by forcing the attacker into submission by using either the Force to remove the attacker's weapon or prevent them from attacking or using his saber to incapacitate. There is always an option.

 

Yes,but if you're facing a very strong individual,both in the physical and in the Force,it might not be so easy to force them into submission or remove their weapon or prevent them from attacking or using their saber,without a little aggressive defense. Wait to long and the fear of their own actions cost the life of another when they could have done something about it. I'm not saying every time in every situation every Jedi should or would use this as an answer,I'm saying in certain situations it could be done.

 

I think it does, it will take them closer to the dark side.

 

Why?If the action was not based on fear,anger,hate,or any other emotion that can lead to the DS,they've done exactly what they're sworn to do. They used the Force to protect life.

 

I am not sure about lightsabers, but the jedi mostly use it for defence. They don't fight for the sole purpose of killing. That will make them emotional or hateful and angry.

 

You're right,I never said that. What I said was they use a more aggressive style of fighting,they do so to protect themselves and others. Aggressive can be used without killing and in some cases without hurting. But they still tap into a more aggressive side of the Force to allow for a more aggressive style of fighting,to win the fight and make sure life is protected. See Mace Windu.

 

If he used choke then it must have brought him closer to the dark side. Could even have played a small part in the angry lashing out at his father near the end (well it took a little goading on Ani's part too). But he always had a choice and in the end choose the light path.

 

His reaction at the end of ROTJ was due to his father's threat against his sister. He was baited into a reaction at the idea of a threat as such causing him to snap. His use of choke on the guards in Jabba's palace I doubt had anything at all to do with it.

 

Of course they can do that but using the force in an aggressive manner will always be related to the dark side.

 

Aggression is not a DS only trait,aggression is almost always used when ever a fight takes place,on both sides. It's the amount and reasons that play the big part. Someone who can not control their aggression someone who can not keep it in check is danger of falling. But certain situations call for an aggressive responce

,not blood lust aggression,not murder aggression,but aggression none the less. Attacking someone because the made you angery and making damn sure someone can not harm an innocent of defenseless person are two very different forms of aggression.

 

Oh,and welcome to the Forum.

[Hysteria0730]

A good debate :D

 

Yes,but if you're facing a very strong individual,both in the physical and in the Force,it might not be so easy to force them into submission or remove their weapon or prevent them from attacking or using their saber,without a little aggressive defense. Wait to long and the fear of their own actions cost the life of another when they could have done something about it. I'm not saying every time in every situation every Jedi should or would use this as an answer,I'm saying in certain situations it could be done.

In certain situations it could be done.

Lets take an example, a jedi fights a powerful sith. Jedi gets overwhelmed, in order to defeat his opponent he uses offensive force powers.

The thing here is that the Jedi was desperate. And its okay to think that he used his power in fear of losing / in fear of losing his loved one / etc.

 

Ok there might be a possibility that the jedi did not use the powers with any emotion but that is the reason which takes him towards the dark side. Useing offensive force without any emotion/reason.

 

 

Aggressive can be used without killing and in some cases without hurting. But they still tap into a more aggressive side of the Force to allow for a more aggressive style of fighting,to win the fight and make sure life is protected. See Mace Windu.

About lightsabers I don't know much. But its not aggressive or light ot dark or defensive force we use when fighting with a lightsaber. Its the same force. Windu's form needs much control of the force and he does so. The force used in all of the forms is the same.

 

 

 

Aggression is not a DS only trait,aggression is almost always used when ever a fight takes place,on both sides. It's the amount and reasons that play the big part. Someone who can not control their aggression someone who can not keep it in check is danger of falling. But certain situations call for an aggressive responce

,not blood lust aggression,not murder aggression,but aggression none the less. Attacking someone because the made you angery and making damn sure someone can not harm an innocent of defenseless person are two very different forms of aggression.

 

Exactly, But I think fighting with a lightsaber and using offensive force powers is different. Meh! the force is complicated.

 

 

 

Oh,and welcome to the Forum.

 

Thank you! Have some Tatooine(sp) Ale on me

[Ameorn]

I find this topic amusing. Everybody says they're right and none will surrender...

Hah, tis' funny it is

 

You can go on untill you all die and you still won't change your minds about it.

And i just want to be a speculator to this most fierce "word-battle", so i won't write a word what i think about the use of force.

[DarthRevan987]

Think that the Jedi should stick with defensive powers and the DS should go with the offensive hostile powers...Suits them best

[213374U]

I've been at this for seven pages... I guess it won't hurt to try again.

 

You are considering Luke the perfect Jedi, when he's far from being so. He acted in fear in the cave of Dagobah, he acted in anger against his father on board the DS, he tried to strike down an unarmed Emperor after failing to resist the taunts. He was this close to falling to the DS. That in the movies only. In fact Luke's own struggle to keep the DS at bay was one of the movies' plots.

 

Regarding his choking the pigs, he didn't even try another way of circumventing the problem. Other Jedi would have used stealth as Obi-Wan did on board the DS, maybe a Mind Trick would have been enough. And of course he didn't even say 'please'. Luke simply choked them until they were out of his way, and took advantage of the fear his attack had caused. Acted like a true darksider. Maybe it all would have come down to a fight in the end, but he didn't even try to avoid hurting them. That's not the way of the Jedi.

 

I believe Jedi regard Force skills such as lightning and hurling objects at a target as deviations of the dark side. Using them is inherently evil. No Jedi would ever use those. Pushing away others with the Force is a different matter, since there is a risk of causing major injury or death, but that is not the intent of the Jedi when doing so. Therefore a Jedi might choose to take that risk if the situation warrants it.

[DarthRevan987]

A DS Luke would be nice to see..too bad the movie was scripted for the Good guys to win

[phyre]

A weapon is both a tool of Defense and Offense. Saying that using the Force as a weapon will lead to abuse is slightly off.

 

A weapon is tool used to cause harm, it will always be offensive. Regardless if you use it to save another's life, any action you take against an opponent is always an attack. Look at history even. Every weapon in the history of mankind was abused. If I taught a farmer how to use a scythe meant for shearing wheat as a weapon, I can guarantee you he'd reach for his scythe if he wanted to hurt someone. The same goes for the Force; once you use it as a weapon, you will always see it that way.

 

The Force in the SW Universe isn't broken up into a power tree like it is in a game. To mannipulate the Force all you need is skill and training to do so. Lighting could be used as Defense as easy as Offense,how it's used would decide which it was.

 

I apologize if I wasn't clear on this. I didn't mean it in a game context. Let's take a real life example here. Imagine the aforementioned rapist used somewhere above. Now imagine you had a gun. How could you possibly use the gun to shoot the rapist if you did not feel some negative emotion toward this rapist? Sure, to use the gun you need to know how to pull the trigger, but why would you use it in the first place? You would shoot him because you were angry at what he did, or maybe because you hated him for being an animal. Now, the Force isn't just a gun. No, it's much more than that. The Force is something much more powerful. You may have heard this once, "With great power comes great responsibility". It might sound corny, but it holds true here. Treating the Force like any other tool would be sacrilege to a Jedi. Using it to kill is wrong, no matter the how or why of it.

 

They don't want to kill or hurt with their saber but will if need be,as you pointed out. Some have used more aggressive style of saber fighting,as such using a more aggressive side of the Force,to help them protect life. They're still Jedi for doing so. Is it something any Jedi could do? No,it would take a large amount of control to do something like that,which some simply wouldn't be able to pull off.

 

I'm glad you realize that mastery of such dangerous lightsaber arts is no small feat. There are what, two Jedi who have mastered the Vaapad? So close to the Darkside is that form, that one Jedi was consumed by it. Is it any wonder why? Resisting the Darkside is hard, even for some of the strongest Jedi. And we're not even talking about using the Force to directly harm someone here, this is dealing with focus and emotion! How much harder, then, would it be for a Jedi to master such techniques that use the Force to directly hurt or kill someone? If only a handful of Jedi can barely manage to master a lightsaber form that flirts with the Darkside how can any Jedi possibly begin to suggest using offensive Force techniques? Restricting any offensive use of the force is meant to protect the Jedi who do not have the will to resist the Darkside after tasting it.

 

So Luke,in ROTJ,was using anger?Hate?A strong desire to cause harm? Didn't seem that way to me,he didn't pick the fight,he didn't make them stand in his way,however he was going to get by them. He didn't seem to be filled with anger or hate. Aggressive is not something that only DS have,LS can be aggressive.

 

Luke didn't have to choke them. He could have used the Force to paralyze them. So many options, so many alternatives, but he resorted to violence. Why? Because it was the easy way. It was not the Jedi thing to do.

 

Yes,but if you're facing a very strong individual,both in the physical and in the Force,it might not be so easy to force them into submission or remove their weapon or prevent them from attacking or using their saber,without a little aggressive defense.

 

First of all, what says using an offensive power against an opponent so much more powerful would even suceed? Although I see how an opponent would be surprised to see such aggressive use of the Force by a Jedi. But why would the Jedi even consider using the Force for offense? Is it because he is afraid he will lose? Or maybe he is angry that he is being beaten? Even against a powerful foe, all a Jedi must do is concentrate and keep all emotion in check. Anger makes people more prone to make mistakes. Who do you think will slip first? The calm and focused Jedi, or the enraged dark Jedi, who is slave to emotion?

[213374U]

I apologize if I wasn't clear on this.  I didn't mean it in a game context.  Let's take a real life example here.  Imagine the aforementioned rapist used somewhere above.  Now imagine you had a gun.  How could you possibly use the gun to shoot the rapist if you did not feel some negative emotion toward this rapist? Sure, to use the gun you need to know how to pull the trigger, but why would you use it in the first place? You would shoot him because you were angry at what he did, or maybe because you hated him for being an animal.

I disagree with you there. Using the gun against a rapist wouldn't require you to hold any ill will toward him. It would only require you to realize that he's about to do something terrible. Common sense and logic would dictate that using the gun is the lesser of two evils. However, the issue is not using the gun or not using it. The issue is, is using lethal force against the rapist the only way you can stop him? For a Jedi, there are not many cases in which the only way to protect themselves or others is using the Force in a harmful way. They are trained in other, less offensive, ways of wielding their power.

[phyre]

I disagree with you there. Using the gun against a rapist wouldn't require you to hold any ill will toward him. It would only require you to realize that he's about to do something terrible. Common sense and logic would dictate that using the gun is the lesser of two evils. However, the issue is not using the gun or not using it. The issue is, is using lethal force against the rapist the only way you can stop him? For a Jedi, there are not many cases in which the only way to protect themselves or others is using the Force in a harmful way. They are trained in other, less offensive, ways of wielding their power.

 

Perhaps the analogy didn't fully illustrate my point.

 

Assuming using lethal force was the only alternative, I believe it would be impossible for a person to knowingly bring pain or death unto another person without any negative emotional attachment. Every violent action, wheter done in agression or in the defense of another life, has a psychological effect. Have you ever used physical violence against another person, even in defense? The aftermath of emotion is definitely there. I've experienced that much. To be even bolder; Have you or do you know anyone who has ever killed another person? Perhaps a police officer or a war veteran? It changes people, regardless of what the reason was.

 

But what if that violence was done using something very sacred?

 

It's not that Jedi abstain killing in general, it's that Jedi abstain killing with the Force. To hurt or kill, with any mundane weapon, is wrong but sometimes necessary. To do it using the Force, an entity that the Jedi find very sacred, would be the equivalent of a Christain using a pointed crucifix to assassinate a President who happened to believe in abortion. It's scandalous!

[213374U]

Assuming using lethal force was the only alternative, I believe it would be impossible for a person to knowingly bring pain or death unto another person without any negative emotional attachment. Every violent action, wheter done in agression or in the defense of another life, has a psychological effect. Have you ever used physical violence against another person, even in defense? The aftermath of emotion is definitely there. I've experienced that much. To be even bolder; Have you or do you know anyone who has ever killed another person? Perhaps a police officer or a war veteran? It changes people, regardless of what the reason was.

Agreed. However the psychological effects come after using lethal force. Soldiers are trained to use lethal force as a tool, and not a result of emotion, precisely because the emotional component introduces unstability in a potentially volatile situation. The same applies to police officers. Force is not the same as aggression and doesn't need to be the result of unchecked emotions.

[phyre]

Agreed. However the psychological effects come after using lethal force. Soldiers are trained to use lethal force as a tool, and not a result of emotion, precisely because the emotional component introduces unstability in a potentially volatile situation. The same applies to police officers. Force is not the same as aggression and doesn't need to be the result of unchecked emotions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, you're right. Use of force is definitely not the same as agression. But, this is a unique case. We really don't have anything available to us right now that can quite compare to the Force. To a Jedi, using the Force to kill, or even hurt, must bring forth some strong emotion prior to committing the act. To attack someone with a gun or lightsaber is one thing, but to call upon the very essence of life to bring harm on another must mean there is some serious unstable emotion there. At least, that's how I see it.

[Spook]

hmmm question....is using the force to enhance ur abilities, then cutting someone down with ur saber since ur enhanced....using the force for harm?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yup. But you have to leave something for us poor lightsiders to play with. "

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I disagree. This is to use the force to enhance yourself.

Your action is though to cause harm, which still might lead to the dark side even if you dont use DS powers (depending on reason for causing harm).

[Spook]

Jedi's respect all life, good or evil.

 

Respect is good,But in certain situations which life gets the most respect?

The one that is in need of protection from harm from aggressors.

 

And of emotions there is always fear, fear is one of the biggest failures of young Jedi that fall, a Jedi will fear being unable to protect those around them, fear failure, and then call on the force to help them quickly - fear leads to the dark side. If they were not afraid they have turned to such a quick violent solution.

 

Agreed,to a point. Sometimes one has to make very quick choices or someone dies. The fear of one's own actions,which then costs a close friend/famliy member or innocent person their life,could send some down the path of the DS a lot fast then a little use of the Force to stop a bad situation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The use of the force as it has been descibed in SW does not follow normal moral codes. Force powers that harm is DS no matter what the intent was, but if your intent was good you might slide to DS slower then the one using it in anger without care. But slide you would never the less.

[Spook]

So, technically, Obsidian COULD add offensive lightside powers - they would just be focused on incapacitating rather than killing.  Things that weaken and/or damage stats, the power of the enemy combatants, or affects their minds in ways that makes them less inclined or capable to fight you.  Endless combinations:  Damage reduction, stat reduction, even the ripping of Force ability for a time from their body, draining their FP. 

Those powers that just incapacitate without harming should be neutral rather then LS or DS. Damage reduction is a good LS power though since it helps protecting someone. Serving the link to the darkside and through that removing force access would also be a good LS power.

 

Something interesting to make note of is that form 7 is dangerously close to being darkside, as are a couple of others, but lightside jedi still use them without falling.  Does that mean powers such as Force Choke, when used in moderation, are perfectly acceptable as lightside powers?  Luke does it at one point...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, and Luke did fall to the dark side for a short time.......let that be a lesson for you.

[Spook]

So Luke,in ROTJ,was using anger?Hate?A strong desire to cause harm? Didn't seem that way to me,he didn't pick the fight,he didn't make them stand in his way,however he was going to get by them. He didn't seem to be filled with anger or hate. Aggressive is not something that only DS have,LS can be aggressive.

 

Luke didn't have to choke them. He could have used the Force to paralyze them. So many options, so many alternatives, but he resorted to violence. Why? Because it was the easy way. It was not the Jedi thing to do.

 

 

I think he did it more because he had very little time with a proper teacher (a week with Yoda in a swamp can do only so much ). If he would have been properly trained he would have choosen another path to enter Jabbas palace.

[Siorfin]

Yoda said the force is used to defend not the force is not used to attack. That could simply mean the force is only used in a manner which causes harm to another when it is in the defense of yourself versus blatant use of the force to cause overt harm to another simply because they disagreed with your viewpoint on something. I think you guys are reading to much into a single saying.