Do You Think Your PC Will Be Stronger Then Revan

[Jedi Master D Murda]

Wow. You just opened my eyes ZSSM (w00t) . I mean Revan was powerful but never faced a Sith Lord or Jedi Master . Interesting. I know that the pre mind wipe Revan did kill Mandalore, which is pretty good but so did Exar Kun or was it Ulic I can never remember.

 

All the masters at the academy say that Revan was powerful, but head strong, and we know that by the end of K1 Revan is even more powerful after his mind wipe.

 

But since we will learn Revan's fate in TSL, *shivers* we should then realize how powerful Revan really was. If he actually had to fight one of the Sith Lords and was either killed or badly injured that would tell me a lot, but if he was jumped then that doesn't say much.

[guybrush threepwood]

i don't think he will be killed or injured. he went to korriban (for an artifact or something) and then left to an unknown location, and the devs arent stupid, so i really think it's unlikely

[Jedi Master D Murda]

i don't think he will be killed or injured. he went to korriban (for an artifact or something) and then left to an unknown location, and the devs arent stupid, so i really think it's unlikely

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Assuming the worst and hoping for the best

 

I just want to know why Revan went out there. He is supposed to be a powerful Jedi loyal to the Republic, mine anyways, and he is not even around to protect it from these Sith Lords . What is it with him?! Whatever is out there better be very important.

[SilverSun]

It is the way of the Sith that the strong must rule, and the weak must die. Revan ruled until Malak's betrayal, so it's safe to assume that Revan was the strongest of the bunch. That alone would make him/her more powerful than all of the Jedi that followed him/her. It is also an obvious fact that Malak was scared as hell of dealing with Revan face to face, before and after the memory loss.

 

He/she beat Malak,so he/she was stronger then he was. And the other that followed him might not have challenged him,that doesn't by default mean Revan could have beat every one of them. However because none of them felt they were strong enough to challenge him/her more then likely is a clue that they were not. But that just proves,as you said,that he/she was stronger then the group with him. It doesn't mean there were not others out there,be they Sith or Jedi that were not stonger. That is what was not said one way or the other.

 

Malak sucked as a strategist, from what you can gather through the game. That doesn't mean he's not an extremely powerful force user. Once I saw Malak's WotC PnP stats (on the Star Forge), and believe me, he's mean, even more so than Vader himself. And yet he was effortlessly owned in the end. By guess who... Revan.

 

Stats created for a RPG character in no way shape or form play a role on a character like Vader. Vader's stats for the PnP game don't even mean much because the stats were created for a game and in the game there is a system of balance that has to be in place for the game too work. Inside the story of SW, there are no numbered stats,or this beats this rules.

 

Revan was strong in the Force, you have admitted that yourself. Yoda says: "my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is.", and we all know how much ass Yoda can kick if needed. Revan was able to cut down a lot of dark Jedi, Sith apprentices, and elite soldiers just to get to Malak. He smacked the sh*t out of Malak even despite Malak's exploiting of the Star Forge. I agree, any PC would have been able to do that to get the plot moving, but it's not any PC we are talking about, it's Revan. The PC is the center of an epic story, and that PC is none other than Revan. The characters epic stories develop around are called legends. That alone is what makes him/her so powerful.

 

Where that's true,fights with in the players control are made to be won. They're made to,even if it's challenge,to be beat. That's not a fair way judge of the character's power. The PC could be an Ewok,and fights in the players control would still be won by the player when all is said and done. To fairly judge a characters power you need something from with in the story that the player has no control over.

 

well revan did kill a hell of alot of sith on the star forge, plus many sith masters, and malak. he wasn't sith lord for nothing, and it seemed there was no jedi that was nearly as powerful.

 

Are we talking player controled fights? Or story fights? And if story fights,where did it state Revan ever killed a Master? Jedi or Sith? Not saying your wrong,I just never saw where it was said if it did.

 

But since we will learn Revan's fate in TSL, *shivers* we should then realize how powerful Revan really was. If he actually had to fight one of the Sith Lords and was either killed or badly injured that would tell me a lot, but if he was jumped then that doesn't say much.

 

Could actually be a good Judge of that. Might not sit well with some fans if it shows Revan to be weaker then the Sith Lords,but did Revan ever face an actual Sith Lord? From what we know he just walked to plate,looked around and didn't see anyone,so he claimed himself/herself to be the Lord of Sith after beating Malak. And Malak never had the power Revan had.

[MASTER]

revan will own us all just look at him he is a beast.

[SilverSun]

Looks mean zero once the fight starts.

[GhostofAnakin]

Are we talking player controled fights? Or story fights? And if story fights,where did it state Revan ever killed a Master? Jedi or Sith? Not saying your wrong,I just never saw where it was said if it did.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Just commenting on this specific point, but while Revan's victory over Malak was a "player controlled fight", in effect it was a story-related victory as well, since the official continuity of the KOTOR saga has Revan coming out on top. So we'd have to assume this means that he's "meant" to defeat Malak and all those Jedi. The only thing the player controls is how easily and how fast he does so.

[Ras Nareth]

a) Do not underestimate the power of the force

 

b) Yes Revan was and is a badass mutha f**cka, but that doesn't make him all powerful. I doubt that you can compare Revan to Exar Kun, now he was monsterous. And he was beaten. Don't make Revan godlike because he's not, he's a very powerful Jedi/Sith Master, but under any circumstance he can be beaten by a lesser foe, it is all in the force. That doesn't mean that any padawan or jedi knight can just kill him. It only means that under strenuous circumstances, and so very often they seem to happen, he may be beaten as in Luke pummeling Vader until Palpatine intervines. Forcelightning on Luke and Vader saving his son, killing Palpatine, who was more powerful in the movies and even in the PnP SW RPG (Palpatine > Vader > Luke). We don't know the story and so to judge the PC or Revan or anyone else seems foolish, suffice it to say that we don't know anything about the PC, he may be Revan's long lost son/nephew/brother/cousin/former roomate?. I think the PC may attain a level similar to Revan since Revan probably become more powerful during the past 5 years. Even in the first game, Revan and Malak were of equal levels/strengths but Revan was triumphent in combat not because he was of a higher level, but because he was successful in that confrontation. (Personal opinion, he was stronger than Malak)

[213374U]

Stats created for a RPG character in no way shape or form play a role on a character like Vader. Vader's stats for the PnP game don't even mean much because the stats were created for a game and in the game there is a system of balance that has to be in place for the game too work.  Inside the story of SW, there are no numbered stats,or this beats this rules.

Right. But Vader's stats were designed after the character we see in the movies, as a 'marker' from which to judge other characters' power. You need something to compare to. I'm giving you that something, it's your choice to ignore it altogether though. You know, there is no need for a player to reach the level cap in a CRPG. If it was designed in such a manner you actually reached the cap, there must be a reason. I may be wrong, but I'd say it's a storywise reason.

 

Where that's true,fights with in the players control are made to be won. They're made to,even if it's challenge,to be beat. That's not a fair way judge of the character's power. The PC could be an Ewok,and fights in the players control would still be won by the player when all is said and done.  To fairly judge a characters power you need something from with in the story that the player has no control over.

You are missing my whole point. What I meant is, if the character hadn't been Revan, the big fights wouldn't have been so big. If the PC had been an ewok the devs wouldn't have designed fights in which you kill a dozen dark Jedi, because that would have been ridiculous. You may choose to disregard as well that Revan was a mean killing machine at the end of KotOR, but the facts are there.

There's one more fact to back this up. Maybe you remember Malak's comments about how he thought no Jedi could survive an attack by the SF battle droids. Well, Revan destroyed the droids too. You can argue that Malak was a self-deluded fool, but then I'm afraid no argument can change your mind.

 

b) Yes Revan was and is a badass mutha f**cka, but that doesn't make him all powerful. I doubt that you can compare Revan to Exar Kun, now he was monsterous. And he was beaten. Don't make Revan godlike because he's not, he's a very powerful Jedi/Sith Master, but under any circumstance he can be beaten by a lesser foe, it is all in the force. That doesn't mean that any padawan or jedi knight can just kill him. It only means that under strenuous circumstances, and so very often they seem to happen, he may be beaten as in Luke pummeling Vader until Palpatine intervines. Forcelightning on Luke and Vader saving his son, killing Palpatine, who was more powerful in the movies and even in the PnP SW RPG (Palpatine > Vader > Luke). We don't know the story and so to judge the PC or Revan or anyone else seems foolish, suffice it to say that we don't know anything about the PC, he may be Revan's long lost son/nephew/brother/cousin/former roomate?. I think the PC may attain a level similar to Revan since Revan probably become more powerful during the past 5 years. Even in the first game, Revan and Malak were of equal levels/strengths but Revan was triumphent in combat not because he was of a higher level, but because he was successful in that confrontation. (Personal opinion, he was stronger than Malak)

Very good point. It was stated in the game that Exar Kun was far more powerful than any of the following Sith Lords. It'd be awful if the TSL PC turned out to be more powerful than Exar Kun.

[SilverSun]

Just commenting on this specific point, but while Revan's victory over Malak was a "player controlled fight", in effect it was a story-related victory as well, since the official continuity of the KOTOR saga has Revan coming out on top. So we'd have to assume this means that he's "meant" to defeat Malak and all those Jedi. The only thing the player controls is how easily and how fast he does so.

 

True,though beating Malak isn't a surprise because it had all ready been shown with in the Story that out of the two Revan had always been the more powerful.

 

Getting through the SF was more stat driven then story,though it did obviously have something to do with the story.

[SilverSun]

Right. But Vader's stats were designed after the character we see in the movies, as a 'marker' from which to judge other characters' power. You need something to compare to. I'm giving you that something, it's your choice to ignore it altogether though. You know, there is no need for a player to reach the level cap in a CRPG. If it was designed in such a manner you actually reached the cap, there must be a reason. I may be wrong, but I'd say it's a storywise reason.

 

I understand that the stats were made from what we saw in the movies but there's a still a system of balance with in the stats that is not an element inside the actual story. Vader in the PnP has to have some sort of balance,Vader as was written into the story needs no such balance.

 

You are missing my whole point. What I meant is, if the character hadn't been Revan, the big fights wouldn't have been so big. If the PC had been an ewok the devs wouldn't have designed fights in which you kill a dozen dark Jedi, because that would have been ridiculous. You may choose to disregard as well that Revan was a mean killing machine at the end of KotOR, but the facts are there.

 

Was he/she powerful? Without a doubt,was there anything to show he/she was untouchable? I don't know. I don't see player controled stat driven fights as a fair way to judge because if the Devs wanted too,ridiculous or not,they could have made an Ewok do it on stats alone. The Sith you face were meant to match against your stats,not the character Revan,but the stats you gave the character. That is how those fights were decided.

 

There's one more fact to back this up. Maybe you remember Malak's comments about how he thought no Jedi could survive an attack by the SF battle droids. Well, Revan destroyed the droids too. You can argue that Malak was a self-deluded fool, but then I'm afraid no argument can change your mind.

 

Malak saying something makes it so? Again,where in the story had Malak tested this? We have his word and nothing else. Doesn't make him wrong(or you for that matter) but I'm looking for something outside of the players control because everything with in the players control was made for the player to beat,

 

I go back to my example where you over level your characters,kill a boss in two hits,yet story wise it was a hard difficult fight that you almost didn't live through. Story line power and game machanic/stat power are two different things a lot of the time.

[Jedi Master D Murda]

Malak saying something makes it so? Again,where in the story had Malak tested this? We have his word and nothing else. Doesn't make him wrong(or you for that matter) but I'm looking for something outside of the players control because everything with in the players control was made for the player to beat,

 

I go back to my example where you over level your characters,kill a boss in two hits,yet story wise it was a hard difficult fight that you almost didn't live through. Story line power and game machanic/stat power are two different things a lot of the time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Malak also told that Sith to send out all available troops and apprentices but he knew that would not stop Revan but merely slow him down, that's gotta say something.

[Huggles]

Just commenting on this specific point, but while Revan's victory over Malak was a "player controlled fight", in effect it was a story-related victory as well, since the official continuity of the KOTOR saga has Revan coming out on top. So we'd have to assume this means that he's "meant" to defeat Malak and all those Jedi. The only thing the player controls is how easily and how fast he does so.

 

True,though beating Malak isn't a surprise because it had all ready been shown with in the Story that out of the two Revan had always been the more powerful.

 

Getting through the SF was more stat driven then story,though it did obviously have something to do with the story.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Speaking of storyline based fights, lets not forget Revan's defeat of Darth Bandon... I know, I know, from a game mechanics standpoint Bandon was crap, but mechanics aren't the issue here. According to his official LucasArts Bio, "...Darth Bandon has proven himself to be an excellent choice (as Malaks apprentice). Many Jedi have fallen beneath the blade of his lightsaber, and he has yet to meet his equal in combat. In time, Bandon may even challenge Malak for the mantle of Dark Lord"

 

As an unavoidable part of the storyline Revan kills Bandon, and (despite his craptacular showing in his little ambush) he's supposed to be someone of great power and skill in the story. Just food for thought.

[MASTER]

Malak saying something makes it so? Again,where in the story had Malak tested this? We have his word and nothing else. Doesn't make him wrong(or you for that matter) but I'm looking for something outside of the players control because everything with in the players control was made for the player to beat,

 

I go back to my example where you over level your characters,kill a boss in two hits,yet story wise it was a hard difficult fight that you almost didn't live through. Story line power and game machanic/stat power are two different things a lot of the time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Malak also told that Sith to send out all available troops and apprentices but he knew that would not stop Revan but merely slow him down, that's gotta say something.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

It does it shows malak was fat and needed as much tiume as possible.

[SilverSun]

Malak also told that Sith to send out all available troops and apprentices but he knew that would not stop Revan but merely slow him down, that's gotta say something.

 

Point taken on that one,though Malak still could have been wrong.

[SilverSun]

Huggles:

 

Good point,nice find.

 

That leads to Revan being powerful,which I'm not saying he/she isn't. I'm looking for how powerful. That doesn't show Revan as beign untouchable,though again nice point.

[213374U]

Was he/she powerful? Without a doubt,was there anything to show he/she was untouchable? I don't know. I don't see player controled stat driven fights as a fair way to judge because if the Devs wanted too,ridiculous or not,they could have made an Ewok do it on stats alone. The Sith you face were meant to match against your stats,not the character Revan,but the stats you gave the character. That is how those fights were decided.

Sorry, but that couldn't have happened. Keep in mind that the storyline of the game is revised by LA, so if something is absurd or misfitting (an ewok slaughtering dark Jedi), it's changed until it fits the SW universe. In the SW universe, only really powerful characters can kill dark Jedi, and it takes much muscle to bring down a Sith Lord.

 

But it doesn't really matter what their actual stats were; storywise, Revan killed a lot of dark Jedi and Sith apprentices aboard the SF. Since the new Sith Lords rise to fill the power vacuum left by Malak, it's only logical to assume they were weaker than Malak and (I know this is bound to draw flak) even Darth Bandy himself. Hence, we will get a new character whose power matches those challenges.

 

Malak saying something makes it so? Again,where in the story had Malak tested this? We have his word and nothing else. Doesn't make him wrong(or you for that matter) but I'm looking for something outside of the players control because everything with in the players control was made for the player to beat,

Well, Malak was a Jedi once and probably was well aware of the capabilities of both the SF droids and the Jedi. But following your reasoning, nothing in the game could prove how powerful Revan really was, short of Yoda appearing and claiming 'a bad muthaf*cka you are', and then running in terror.

 

Note that I'm not implying Revan is more powerful than any other character in the SW universe. I just say, most likely, Revan will be more powerful than the TSL PC, if only because he/she has had more time to hone on his/her abilities.

[Jedi Master D Murda]

It does it shows malak was fat and needed as much tiume as possible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

That's not exactly what I was thinking...

[Huggles]

Malak also told that Sith to send out all available troops and apprentices but he knew that would not stop Revan but merely slow him down, that's gotta say something.

 

Point taken on that one,though Malak still could have been wrong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

... But he wasn't wrong... both official endings have Revan beating Malak and both endings have this same plot element in them. In order for the game and the storyline to be complete Revan (possibly with his crew) has to go through Malak's troops and apprentices.

[MASTER]

okay I will try better next time

[Ras Nareth]

Story line power and game machanic/stat power are two different things a lot of the time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I defintely agree with you there. But we can look at this in many ways. Over time power wanes, everyone isn't what they were at their prime. Yoda was not the same Yoda on the swamp (dogodah, sorry I don't know the right spelling) as he was when he was younger, same can be said about Palpatine or even Vader. The force often counteracts inbalance of either LS or DS supremacy, tiping the scale either way every so often. While the PC regains his powers, Revan may lose some. Gamewise it is logical to raise the level cap, and thus we have to look at it differently than say PnP Star Wars because if you look at it in the PnP perspective, then there's no way that Vader could have killed Palpatine with swift movement when he was battling Luke and losing towards the end. (I think thats how it proceeded, last time I watched it was many years ago, please correct me if I am wrong or inconsistent) So as one generation/heroic/influential individual rises, others fall, that often accounts for the events that take place. Oh and I don't remember if it was in this post or another one that someone said that we all liked Vader because he had a good side, I have to disagree. Vader was the ultimate bad guy. Forget Palpatine, he was and is the ultimate antagonist in comparison to Luke who was the main protagonist in the SW Trilogy 4-6. Vader was evil , he wasn't good at all. For two movies straight he was portrayed as lacking a soul. And we all loved him and feared him, "The Dreaded Lord Vader" . But in the end he was shown as having some humanity left in him, that got us to connect with him. But I think that we like him not only for his rekindling of humanity, but for mainly for his Dark Side and the ultimate adversary that his character presented. Refute me please.

[Jedi Master D Murda]

But following your reasoning, nothing in the game could prove how powerful Revan really was, short of Yoda appearing and claiming 'a bad muthaf*cka you are', and then running in terror.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's true. But I think it was the intent of Bioware or LA to make players recognize Revan as "untouchable".

[GhostofAnakin]

I take it no one wants to respond to my point about each subsequent PC being more powerful eventually making the games seem lame?

 

Because that was part of my reasons for being against the PC being more powerful than Revan. If the TSL PC is more powerful, then no doubt whoever the PC in KOTOR3 will be more powerful than the TSL PC, then the KOTOR4 PC will be more powerful than the KOTOR3 PC, and etc. IMO, that would start to get lame if each new game has to top the previous one in order to tell its story.

[SilverSun]

Sorry, but that couldn't have happened. Keep in mind that the storyline of the game is revised by LA, so if something is absurd or misfitting (an ewok slaughtering dark Jedi), it's changed until it fits the SW universe. In the SW universe, only really powerful characters can kill dark Jedi, and it takes much muscle to bring down a Sith Lord.

 

And you wouldn't think a group of Ewoks could take down a legion of Pal's best troops either. Something seeming to be absurd doesn't mean it can't be written in. If LA wanted it,they could write it no matter what some fans did or did not think of it.

 

But it doesn't really matter what their actual stats were; storywise, Revan killed a lot of dark Jedi and Sith apprentices aboard the SF. Since the new Sith Lords rise to fill the power vacuum left by Malak, it's only logical to assume they were weaker than Malak and (I know this is bound to draw flak) even Darth Bandy himself. Hence, we will get a new character whose power matches those challenges.

 

Why is that what needs to be assumed? It was never stated that Sith Lords in this game are made up of people left over from Malak/Revan's rule. There were Sith out there that had nothing to do with Malak or Revan. And again,it was Stats against stats,the player was meant to win those fights. It was meant to see how well the player built their character. It was less story and much more stat driven.

 

Well, Malak was a Jedi once and probably was well aware of the capabilities of both the SF droids and the Jedi. But following your reasoning, nothing in the game could prove how powerful Revan really was, short of Yoda appearing and claiming 'a bad muthaf*cka you are', and then running in terror.

 

To a point it would be needed,though it would be Vandar and not Yoda. Besides I all ready said I was off on that one,but you were pry still typing.

 

Note that I'm not implying Revan is more powerful than any other character in the SW universe. I just say, most likely, Revan will be more powerful than the TSL PC, if only because he/she has had more time to hone on his/her abilities.

 

Which is a reasonable reason to assume he/she will be. I was looking for something inside the story that told people that Revan was untouchable,which I might have missed.I never stated that the PC in SL would be more powerful. I don't care if the PC is or is not more powerful.

 

Again,because of the fact that stat based power is often time different from story based power,I was looking from something in the story that said exactly how powerful Revan was.

 

If the game has a bosse's stats set to match against certain stats,and you've passed the set stats in a straight up battle you might destroy the boss,however when story starts back up you might be busted up against a wall with the Boss standing above you because story wise the boss is suppose to be stronger even though stat wise it was not.

 

This is most likely my last post for a while. However this is a nice little debate we have going so if you want to keep it going throw something up and I'll get to it the next chance I get too.

[Huggles]

But following your reasoning, nothing in the game could prove how powerful Revan really was, short of Yoda appearing and claiming 'a bad muthaf*cka you are', and then running in terror.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's true. But I think it was the intent of Bioware or LA to make players recognize Revan as "untouchable".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

See, as far as storyline continuity goes, I always got the impression that Revan was comparable to say Mace Windu in the power spectrum. One of the best of the best, legendary even, but not completely untouchable, as say a prime Vader or Exar Kun. That little rodian dude in the game rather bluntly states that Revan, pre-mindwipe, was not as strong as Exar.

 

I still think Revan was meant to be one of the more historic figures of the SW universe, but not quite on the same level as Palps/Vader/Exar/Markos Ragnos etc. in terms of raw power.