Non-Linear Stories

[JJ86]

What are the tools that writers use to fully map a non-linear story? Obviously several of the better RPGs like Fallout and Arcanum allow the user to create a different PC which drives the story along a different path. How is the multiple-path story written?

[pulp]

Non-linear stories? You mean, an over-arching storyline but with enough freedom to explore other interwoven threads of different stories?

[JJ86]

Non-linear stories? You mean, an over-arching storyline but with enough freedom to explore other interwoven threads of different stories?

It's a commonly known and understood term. I was hoping for some insight from developers or writers. Thx.

[Gromnir]

actually, we suspect that the term ain't so commonly understood as all that.

 

use linear/non-linear when talking to an author 'bout story and they is gonna have a very differnt notion 'bout what you means than will a game designer. see, regardless of notions 'bout chronological linearity, an author generally starts his story on page 1, and ends on final page, and each page in between is where it is for a very good reason. if you were to ask an author to write a story where the order of pages not make no difference, or where sequence of plot points was purposefully left unimportant so that story would work just as well regardless of order of events, he would probably look at you as if you were nuts.

 

we s'pose that those "choose your adventure" books might be considered literature that is non-linear in a similar sense as is games, but even that ain't quite right.

 

*shrug*

 

non-linear is a commonly misunderstood term.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

p.s. we has seen some attempts at true non-linear storytelling... and they is... odd.

[JJ86]

Sorry for the confusion and using concepts unfamiliar to some people but I was hoping to open up some discussion among people familiar with the concepts. If you are interested in learning rather than forming uneducated opinions, then I would recommend several sources of information on these ideas. The foremost academics are Mateas and Stern. A few of their more interesting and recent papers are found here:

 

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~michaelm/publications/SIA2000.pdf

 

http://www.quvu.net/interactivestory.net/p...sSternGDC03.pdf

 

Another good article can be found at Gamasutra by Randy Littlejohn (registration is required):

 

http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20031029...lejohn_01.shtml

 

These essays are probably beyond casual surfers but are definite reads if you are truly interested.

[Gromnir]

interesting reads, but you suggest that terms is commonly known and understood, and ask for writer and developer feedback... after pointing to fallout and arcanum as examples.

 

'course your commonly understood terms clearly contradict literary notions of non-linearity, so the querry to writers is suspect. also, to clarify, you points to some obscure cs articles dealing with largely experimental approaches (as we said already, we has seen non-linear storytelling, and it is odd,) as a way to show that linearity is a commonly understood term?

 

HA!

 

facade approach bear much resemblance to arcanum and fallout?

 

we is glad that you can google and all, but why not try typing in the words story, plot, and non-linear into your search engine this time and see what kinda stuff comes back.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

p.s. we see nothing wrong with you wanting to discuss these experimental approaches to storytelling, but you criticize pulp and others for not understanding a commonly known and understood term that hardly matches the examples you give and does not really reflect the common use of the term anyhow.

 

am not sure who it is you thinks looks smarty in this thread, but for once it ain't krazy or Gromnir wearing the harlequin's motley.

[JJ86]

Gromnir, obviously when I post to a game-related board and ask for writers, I am not asking for book-oriented writers. Comprende? There are many varieties of writers, but let us concentrate on game-related writers for now.

 

And no, these writings are not pulled out of Google. I check Gamasutra regularly as well as Grandtextauto where things like this are discussed often. Stern and Mateas are very well known educators and speakers on video games and interactive media. Hell even Wired, Terra Nova, and Noah Sachs Report link to these ideas. I'm sorry if you aren't familiar with them but if you spent more time familiarizing yourself with the medium and less time trying to impress people with your style, you might be better served? Please do everyone a favor by not making such judgments? They only serve to turn simple discussions into nasty flame-wars. I think we can show some respect for the Obsidian people by not turning their forums into a battleground.

[Gromnir]

again, we is familiar with non-linear story telling and the rather suspect results that has been so far produced, but when you mentions arcanum and fallout in your initial querry (two games that is often mistakenly listed by fans as utilizing non-linear story telling approaches,) we has no doubt that both experts in field and layman would be getting confused as to what YOU meant.

 

if you want good answers, you must learn to frame better querries, and try not to blame your shortcomings on other folks. when pulp asked his question, all you had to do was write one little line clarifying... instead, you suggested that he was ignorant... when, in point of fact, it looks like you was the guy more than a little confused.

 

pulp was polite enough, and even krazy weren't rude... so if you is worried 'bout flamewars n' such, we suggest you look to self first chum.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

p.s. we also note that you asked for a response from writers OR developers.

[JJ86]

Again, I'm sorry for any confusion about my original question, I'll post it again here and ask that you read it again carefully. If the second sentence confuses you in any way or you disagree, then skip to the main query of sentence 1 and 3. :

 

What are the tools that writers use to fully map a non-linear story? Obviously several of the better RPGs like Fallout and Arcanum allow the user to create a different PC which drives the story along a different path. How is the multiple-path story written?

 

Did you have any useful answer to the questions or knowledge from your game design experience that can enlighten people who may be interested? Is it ok if we leave this thread on topic?

[Gromnir]

Again, I'm sorry for any confusion about my original question, I'll post it again here and ask that you read it again carefully. If the second sentence confuses you in any way or you disagree, then skip to the main query of sentence 1 and 3. :

 

What are the tools that writers use to fully map a non-linear story? Obviously several of the better RPGs like Fallout and Arcanum allow the user to create a different PC which drives the story along a different path. How is the multiple-path story written?

 

Did you have any useful answer to the questions or knowledge from your game design experience that can enlighten people who may be interested? Is it ok if we leave this thread on topic?

we read it a few times, and as it is written one can very easily see how pulp or others, inlcuding developers, might not know what you mean by non-linear. is very possible that you coulda' been using in the generic sense especially in light of your examples.

 

as to our feedback on the subject... actually, we was already discussing some of this in another thread on this board, so we not wanna spam. look for the "story and exploration" thread.

 

while our experience ain't in game design, we has considerable experience with writing. am not much of a writer actually, but we does have 'nuff education and creds in the field to impress people at c***tail parties.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[JJ86]

A non-linear story is generally accepted as a story that changes direction based on varied inputs or variables. It also can mean that certain sequences can be arranged in various orders. In the context of Mateas and Stern's work, Facade there is a starting point and a resolution but depending on the player's direction the story can have different resolutions. The game is entirely non-linear. Compare to a game like Max Payne 2 which is almost entirely linear in that there is one beginning and one resolution.

 

Most RPGs allow for the story to take many different directions as it progresses depending on character variables as well as the sequences with which you interact with the NPCs. The end story ideally will diverge to offer many resolutions depending on the path you take throughout the game.

 

But what tools are used to keep track of this process? How do you map the possible pathways in a game where one action will create a divergence along two routes? It becomes increasingly complex as the game progresses to keep track of the many variables. I assume that professional writers use a tool more advanced than pen and paper. Is there a type of database that helps to keep track of this info so that there isn't any continuity errors?

[JJ86]

Why is it necessary to post in a thread where you have nothing to add beyond insults? IMO, this is behavior that should be discouraged if not a bannable offense.

[Fionavar]

I would request that the discussion at hand not devolve into name calling and petty bickering. I believe that JJ86 is sincere in his attempt to invite discussion in this regard. Though perhaps somewhat grated by the challenges herein, I do not think he means to condescend. I would request that if you are interested in discussing the topic then please do so. If, however, you are not interested or do not wish to contribute anything constructive, then please do not do so, as I will have to get all evil like and that is no fun. So please play nice, don't bait, don't bicker ... it is in fact an interesting area and I thank JJ86 for taking the time to share the links he has.

 

Addendum: At the request of the author of this thread and after attempting to alleviate this issue in a mature fashion, it seems that this thread has had to be pruned. I suggest contributing from this point forward ONLY if the intention is to be constructive.

[Karzak]

What are the tools that writers use to fully map a non-linear story? Obviously several of the better RPGs like Fallout and Arcanum allow the user to create a different PC which drives the story along a different path. How is the multiple-path story written?

Every game engine handles decision trees differently, and I imagine every writer handles them differently as well on paper.

[Gromnir]

What are the tools that writers use to fully map a non-linear story? Obviously several of the better RPGs like Fallout and Arcanum allow the user to create a different PC which drives the story along a different path. How is the multiple-path story written?

Every game engine handles decision trees differently, and I imagine every writer handles them differently as well on paper.

as stated elsewhere and alluded to here, the concept of a non-linear story w/i framework of the model current crpg is largely an illusion... is a misnomer at best.

 

as a writer, you know how story will start, and you know how will end. sure, you can offer 5 or 6 different endings as in planescape, but it is still just an illusion of non-linearity, 'cause ending is still known and is still coming from some script... a script wherein all major plot points was same leading up to that final choice of six.

 

kotor actually did a little different. that game actually does diverge and open up completely different choices 'long the bifurcated tree of plot, but it did so late in game, and it only offered 1 essential choice... choose light or choose dark. up to that point on roof of forgotten world temple, the major plot points remain same regardless of how you has resolved earlier plot points. your actions is largely incidental to the causal chain of plot points.

 

if you got quests, each with its own macguffin, then at the very least, you gots some linearity w/i that quest... as soon as you establish a goal for the protagonist, you is placing limits on plot, and as soon as you limit dialogue options to a handful of prefab responses you is placing limits on character. virtual all literary conventions require some measure of linearity... foreshadowing and symbolism and theme is all dependent on knowing, to a certain degree, who the characters is, and where they is going.

 

a mmorpg w/o no prefab quests is gonna result in a non-linear story, but a modern crpg with established quests and limited dialogue options is non-linear only in the most insignificant ways.

 

 

you can go read our posts in the "story and exploration" post if you want more detail on plot as 'posed to story.

 

so, we get back to original question: what do you mean by non-linear? is you wanting to discuss facade and ways to make games that is truly non-linear, or is you wanting to talk 'bout non-linear in context of the modern crpg?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[crakkie]

...err, I suppose the original question was actually asking how one would model a game consisting of quests and events which, while linear in and of themselves, are not necessarily guaranteed to happen in any set order.

 

I've seen pix of Rockstar's studio during GTA3's production, and they have a large board with a lot of post-its in a tree-like structure mapping out all the quests in the game. I believe they mapped out the stories and plot arcs based on the locations in which they occured, as opposed to the point in the game where they might happen. I imagine you could organize the plots/subplots according to where they happen and what their prerequisites are.

 

If you kept good records of a quest/events prerequisites (isEvil, killedThisGuysBrother, haveBeenHereBefore) you could keep locations heavily layered with quests (Like Tarant) rather well organized, I imagine, even if they came back to the same location several times.

 

I'm trying to write a text-rpg myself. I use openoffice/draw to model the locations' quests. Just ovals w/ brief descriptions branching out from rectanular locations.

 

As far as the main story arc's paths, you could just use a tree to show where different choices diverge, branch out, end, or converge. I've only seen story-organizing programs, which look like project managers, for linear (pardon the expression, Gormir) storytelling.

[Tigranes]

Since there has been confusing about what you've been asking, I will state here that what I interpret your query to be, so correct me if you mean something different. I've read the posts that remain on the thread but don't want to sit here working out the subtle differences in how each person interprets non-linear.

 

So, I'll discuss about how to construct a flexible and to an extent non-linear, as in effected by player choices, main story in a CRPG, in both creative/design terms and coding terms.

 

Gromnir is very correct when he says there has to be a degree of linearity; otherwise you may as well try to write a game that simulates *all* of your player's life; code every single thing you might do/say, every coincidental incident, and every chain reaction anything you do/say may cause. Obviously this is impossible. Therefore things like the backdrop/setting, perhaps the nature of your character, and probably the beginning / ending options would be predetermined. Thus the major skeleton of the story - even if the available endings be radically polarised in the list of available options story-wise - must be set in stone.

 

Of course, within this major structure, variations are possible. There are various ways these variations are coded and written in CRPGs. BGII: Shadows of Amn is a prime example of one style, which many have labelled an "illusion of freedom"; this is present to a greater degree in Final Fantasy games. In BG2, the main story is very set in stone; this is a thicker skeleton than is necessary, though this usually ameliorates the quality of the plot. In BG2, whatever you do, to proceed in the game you must eventually cast out for Spellhold; you cannot abandon Imoen no matter how evil or uncaring you wish to be. Whatever you do, you cannot prevent your intoxicated slumber and the subsequent robbery of your soul; you cannot prevent your passage into the Underdark, nor can you prevent your final act, the entry into Suldanessellar and the eventual combat against Jon Irenicus. A few choices - such as Sahuagin, which pretty much screams "optional dungeon" - are available to the player, but whatever the player does, BGII forces the player into its thick major skeleton of the game.

However, BGII allows some degree of freedom, or at least the illusion of freedom, in minor matters. It has numerous sidequests, though this usually means the freedom is there in your choice of undertaking it, not how you undertake it (which would be present in Fallout, a game more nonlinear in nature). Final Fantasy games are even more linear in this particular scale; it gives you prefabricated dialogue options, for example, but 90% of the story happens the same way every single time no matter what you do. You may explore, but that is only for sidequests (which in themselves are also linear) or goodies like cards.

In the plot itself, games like BG series and FF series usually dont let you touch it with a ten foot pole; exceptions would be the final deciison in BGII:ToB (which really doesnt effect the story, and you are given a rather crude "nonlinearity" - pick one of two endings, there on the spot.), and the light/dark decision in KotOR.

 

In coding terms, I'll be briefer. As stated before by somebody, it all depends on the type of coding and engine that is used for the game; but crudely, the game simply logs player decisions that effect the game later on. (e.g. in BG2, each time you reject / step forward in a romance through dialogue options, a value is kept in your savegame, something like JaheiraRomance "3" if has been terminated, etc). This is usually the way to do it; you tag the "trigger" event, and then for each option the player has (ooh, nonlinear!) you have a different set of events unfolding, sometimes with more options; it ends up looking like a tree, and you weave through the numerous options to find one of many endings for that event. (Sometimes, you have options but they all end up in one spot; this would be BG's "illusion of nonlinearity".)

 

You will notice that I'm in no way some literary expert, and I won't even try to divulge into stuff like that. This is simply an observation from a CRPG viewpoint - a nerd's ramble, if you will. Nevertheless, I believe it holds quite true in its context.

[JJ86]

Thanks Crakkie, that sheds some light on my original question. Anyone else want to take a crack at shedding light on what tools they use to map out the non linear story? It seems that using a simple 2d mapping like a flowchart may be adequate when many overlapping variables are used. I was thinking a 3d spreadsheet may be better attuned to connecting diverse nodes.

 

Ideally consider that a large number of options are available to the player to start with, such as sex, race, karma and even attributes. All of these would have a definite influence on the progression and direction of the game. I enjoy when games take into account variaitions based on these user choices. Then also add into the mix how alliances throughout the game can turn the game's story. But as a writer you still want to allow for a number of diferent endings. It can be almost like writing dozens of alternate stories based on similar situations. Kind of like in Groundhog Day where Bill Murray lived through the same situations but chose different approaches to events. Each approach led to a different result. Or even in 12 Monkeys where Bruce Willis was trapped reliving the same situation. He managed to discover new information in each iteration but still was doomed to the same end.

 

It is a different way of thinking about a story and really needs to handled specially in a game to avoid getting bogged down when getting to production.

[poolofpoo]

i think the main confusion here is not so much "non-linearity" but rather over the concept of "story". As we all know "story" is something that takes place in "the future" (or in the "presence"), it unfolds as we read or watch it. This is opposed to "history" which is something that took place in the past ("hi-" meaning "in the past"). So, when we are talking about a story we don't know how it will end simply because it's happening right now. A story is therefore by default "non-linear", while "history" is linear.

 

let it be known that I'm not much of a story-teller but I'm good enough to impress the s*** out of people at c***tail parties (I them attend frequently). I also hold an MBA from Wharton, something which has absolutely no bearing on a game forum, I simply like to tell people about it...

[Gromnir]

"This is usually the way to do it; you tag the "trigger" event, and then for each option the player has (ooh, nonlinear!) you have a different set of events unfolding, sometimes with more options; it ends up looking like a tree,"

 

the problem is that, like the bg2 romances, most of the branches of the tree is dead. you either advanced the romance, or you did not. was no real tree, was there? there was no bifurcation of options.

 

*shrug*

 

so, you is back to the illusions... games that end up getting called non-linear, is simply the ones that has fewer essential plot points. you got lots of non-essential quests that not really impact your character or the main story to any great degree. we has no problem with this approach, but the story ain't really any more non-linear than the ff games.

 

kotor actually did a little different, 'cause they gave an option (albeit only one) that actually had real impact on gameplay following the making of the choice. choice is made on roof of the temple on the forgotten planet, and while end of game is bringing you to same confrontation with malak, you actually does have, for a short time, some completely different plot points and choices.

 

this is the reason why we is generally unimpressed with multiple endings. oh sure, we likes to have multiple endings, and some of them can be pretty imaginative, but they is, ultimately, the easiest of places in game to offer multiple options... 'cause that is where the game ends, or at least the main story does. you not have to contemplate and plan for what the player will do afterwards, 'cause it not really matter no more. oh sure, in the fallout you got to see some results post conclusion, but the story arc was complete... recall that you likened to a tree. at what point is it hardest to anticipate what a tree will look like; is it when you got nothing but a little shoot, or when lookings at a full-grown tree knowing that you has only one final branching? with the typical multiple ending game, two players can play game completely different almost entire way through game, but even so these two players will end up with the same final options that is, for the most part, not dependent on what they did through game... maybe dependent on stats or skills, but not actions.

 

furthermore, folks often ask for good writing in games... but truth is that they not really want good writing.

 

"Toward the close of a novel, the writer brings back

[Chris Avellone]

I will say for non-linear design, what usually happened on Interplay/BIS RPGs was that the "non-linear" aspects were just designed as a multitude of linear ones. If you need a more real version of non-linearity, you really have to throw in more engine-driven events and solutions rather than scripted quest or dialogue solutions (kind of like how Fallout handled explosives, for example, which allowed you to solve a number of puzzles just by using the demolitions game mechanics).

 

If that makes any sense.

 

Keeping track and testing all of them can certainly be a pain, but they are fun to design.

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"Toward the close of a novel, the writer brings back?directly or in the form of his characters recollections?images, characters, events, and intellectual motifs encountered earlier. Unexpected connections begin to surface; hidden causes become plain; life becomes, however briefly and unstably, organized, the universe reveals itself if only for the moment, as inexorably moral; the outcome of various characters? actions is at least manifest and we shall see the responsibility of free will. It is this closing orchestration that the novel exists for. If such a close does not come, for whatever theoretically good reason, we shut the book with feelings of dissatisfaction, as if cheated."

 

I can't possibly be the only person here who actually enjoys these kinds of unsatisfactory endings, can I? Surely others like the "this is not right" feeling you get when things don't work like they should, especially when the process Gardner describes has already begun. Then, when it suddenly fails, and the world is chaos again, the shock effect is indescribable, if it is executed well. Of course, I will afterwards feel cheated, but right then it doesn't matter, and when the moment has passed, I will remember.

[poolofpoo]

oh, and looking at poo

[crakkie]

"Toward the close of a novel, the writer brings back?directly or in the form of his characters recollections?images, characters, events, and intellectual motifs encountered earlier. Unexpected connections begin to surface; hidden causes become plain; life becomes, however briefly and unstably, organized, the universe reveals itself if only for the moment, as inexorably moral; the outcome of various characters? actions is at least manifest and we shall see the responsibility of free will. It is this closing orchestration that the novel exists for. If such a close does not come, for whatever theoretically good reason, we shut the book with feelings of dissatisfaction, as if cheated."

 

I can't possibly be the only person here who actually enjoys these kinds of unsatisfactory endings, can I? Surely others like the "this is not right" feeling you get when things don't work like they should, especially when the process Gardner describes has already begun.

No, you're not the only one. When movies or novels don't give me closure, it's closer to real life(which rarely affords those kind of endings). Take Fallout for instance: in the multiple endings, past events and choices manifested themselves in ways that were certainly not inexorably moral. By and large they were indifferent or cruel and left you feeling cheated and disallusioned. I love this, of course I'm an "emotional masochist" my girlfriend keeps telling me.

[Gromnir]

"I can't possibly be the only person here who actually enjoys these kinds of unsatisfactory endings, can I?"

 

depends on what you mean by unsatisfactory. gardner ain't talking 'bout leaving you feeling happy and content with resolution. ending with a world in chaos can very easily be a satisfactory conclusion in that all goals of author is met and all major questions is answered. is possible that the ending should make you wanna howl at the protagonist or the author who wrote 'em, but that not mean that the story fails to conclude properly. ultimately, we thinks that a great ending should be a surprise, but upon reflection, the careful reader should recognize that the ending as written was inevitable as well.

 

'course, gardner also thought that "The Grapes of Wrath," ending failed, so you can make up your own mind if he was right or wrong.

 

in any event, you probably wouldn't end a sentence in mid thought, so why is

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

HA! Good Fun!