Darth_Gandalf Posted June 28, 2004 Author Posted June 28, 2004 Funny. As for replayability, I saw no problem with KOTOR. I beat it five times, I think. Different variations on the PC, classes, light/dark side, etc. "You shall not pass!"
Judge Hades Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 I could stomach it only twice. Light side then dark side. There was really very little variation.
Darth_Gandalf Posted June 28, 2004 Author Posted June 28, 2004 I played: Male, light side, Guardian Male, light side, Sentinal Male, dark side, Consular Female, light side, Guardian Male, light side, Consular I guess I found light side w/ force powers most fulfilling. And why, if you hated KOTOR so much, did you play it twice? "You shall not pass!"
Drakron Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 Funny. As for replayability, I saw no problem with KOTOR. I beat it five times, I think. Different variations on the PC, classes, light/dark side, etc. Can you beat it as a non Jedi? It have no replayability, you are playing the same thing over and over again ... true you can in some places take a diferent option that ultimatly is not relevent to how the game progresses. I can finish the dark side path by just reloading a saved game in the Temple Summit. No replayability ...
Judge Hades Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 I played: Male, light side, Guardian Male, light side, Sentinal Male, dark side, Consular Female, light side, Guardian Male, light side, Consular I guess I found light side w/ force powers most fulfilling. And why, if you hated KOTOR so much, did you play it twice? I hated aspects of KotOR and not the whole thing and I wanted a fel of what the light side had to offer than the dark side. It is unfortunate the aspects I hate about KotOR are going to be kept in its sequel.
Darth_Gandalf Posted June 28, 2004 Author Posted June 28, 2004 Still... I found any negative aspects of KOTOR to be negligible. I definitely got my money's worth out of it. (And I've loaned it to my little brother back home, who's been playing it like mad.) "You shall not pass!"
Judge Hades Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 I don't see butchering the d20 System rules of Star Wars as neglible.
Darth_Gandalf Posted June 28, 2004 Author Posted June 28, 2004 Hmm... d20 rules. It's not like they committed a felony. It's a game. Games are, by definition, something trivial -- for entertainment purposes, and not to obsess over. "You shall not pass!"
Zabrak Maul Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 ya'll are still arguin over this? ya'll are whacked!
Judge Hades Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 Follow the rules of the game or the game is worth nothing. They either should adhere to the rules established or came up with their own system.
Zabrak Maul Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 say what? i dont know what the crud ya'll are talkin about. speak english, not nerd
Darth_Gandalf Posted June 28, 2004 Author Posted June 28, 2004 He's talking about the RPG rules Bioware used to make KOTOR. They modified the rules set for their game, and old Hades didn't like it. "You shall not pass!"
Judge Hades Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 say what? i dont know what the crud ya'll are talkin about. speak english, not nerd If you don't understand the argument, then go somewhere else to post instead of showing off your ignorance.
Fighter Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 Hades_One I read a couple of your comments on this board. Is there anything you actually like?
JohnDoe Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 Hades_One I read a couple of your comments on this board. Is there anything you actually like? Apparently he likes bitching about a game hes not going to play.
GhostofAnakin Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 say what? i dont know what the crud ya'll are talkin about. speak english, not nerd If you don't understand the argument, then go somewhere else to post instead of showing off your ignorance. While I do agree that Zabrak Maul isn't adding anything to the discussion, I just find it ironic that Hades_One is making this statement of all people. "Console exclusive is such a harsh word." - Darque"Console exclusive is two words Darque." - Nartwak (in response to Darque's observation)
JohnDoe Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 Follow the rules of the game or the game is worth nothing. They either should adhere to the rules established or came up with their own system. Ridiculous. If the the options are a) Use the rules without changing them and have a worse game because of that. or B) Modify the rules to work better in a real-time PC environment I'd choose b everytime. Of course, I'd prefer a new rules set designed solely for the game, but thats not possible in every case.
EnderAndrew Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 Hades, Your argument is that a new game, KOTOR (which doesn't advertise itself as faithful recreation of the Star Wars D20 system) must follow past-precedent in rules systems, or else. Well, the D20 system sure didn't. It's quite different from D&D 3rd edition, and both are quite different from the West End Game's Star Wars RPG. You make changes as necessary for whatever story you want to tell. Mechanics should not get in the way of story. That is the first and foremost rule of role-playing, and you'll find it in every book.
Darth_Gandalf Posted June 29, 2004 Author Posted June 29, 2004 Precisely! The game itself must come first. The RPG settings used to create it are subject to the qualities of the game you wish to create! "You shall not pass!"
Meshugger Posted June 29, 2004 Posted June 29, 2004 And yet I don't think they're trying to make games for the "strong-willed." They're trying to make something that will be enjoyed by the maximum number of people so that it will be purchased by the greatest number of people and make the most money. Shallow is the word you are looking. People that play RPGs know how to play RPGs, trying to make people that play FPS to start playing RPGs is not done by dumb down RPGs so it look and plays like a FPS. I dont expect driving games to play like GTA:VC, if GT becames like GTA in terms of car handling it will be a loss to GT fans. I think that System Shock II and Deus Ex succeeded in that part without sacrificing too much of the elements from either side (RPG vs FPS). "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy
EnderAndrew Posted June 29, 2004 Posted June 29, 2004 If people never dared to innovate, where would we be?
Judge Hades Posted June 29, 2004 Posted June 29, 2004 Sorry, but for me its the rules. If you don't have an established rules mechanic everything else breaks down and become rather inane. Look at the challenge level of KotOR1 for an example of that. Think how much tougher the game would be if they did the following: 1. Use the Wound/Vitality System rules for combat and force use. 2. Made full use of combat rules such as trip attacks and attacks of opportunity. 3. Proper damage ratings for blasters, rifles, and lightsabers. 4. More detailed skill system, such as breaking down Persuade into Bluff (for Scoundrels/Consulors), Intimidate (for soldiers/guardians), and Diplomacy (for scouts/Sentinels). 5. Being able to shoot targets kneeling or at prone. There are more but these are the most important in my opinion. d20 System isn't DnD, but DnD is a derivitive of the d20 System. The DnD rules system is consistant to the DnD rules system. Star Wars d20 is a derivitive of the d20 System but if you look at all the Star Wars d20 books they all use the Star Wars d20 rules pretty consistantly. The same can be said with Babylon 5 d20. It is a derivitive of the d20 System but every book that has the Babylon 5 d20 logo is consistant with the Babylon d20 rules. See the pattern here?
Judge Hades Posted June 29, 2004 Posted June 29, 2004 If people never dared to innovate, where would we be? I fully agree with that. I am all for innovation and why I prefer developers like Obsidian and Bioware to make up their own damn rules instead of shoe horning or butchering an established rules system onto the computer. By the way, I liked Deus Ex. Best FPS game I have ever played.
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