Farenheit 911

[Darth Jebus]

Well, today's the day. Anyone planning on actually seeing this film?

[OLD SKOOL WHEELMAN]

No I'll rent it, and save my money for something that's more educational and worth it: Spiderman 2!

[Grandpa]

Well, today's the day. Anyone planning on actually seeing this film?

No. I can't think of a bigger waste of my money right now. I'd get more satisfaction from burning my next paycheck than spending a small portion of it on a Michael Moore flick.

[mkreku]

Yeah, it will probably snow in hell before an american spends money on something educational. You go watch Spiderman 2 instead..

[Cantousent]

Educational? I remember seeing Bowling for Columbine. It was a mildly entertaining film, but education should be about finding the truth. Michael Moore has nothing to do with the truth.

 

One fellow here cites Noam Chomsky

[JohnDoe]

I'll simply say: you can believe what you want of the American public. By and large, most of us simply don't care. It's worth noting that what you think of us doesn't hurt us in the least, so, please, keep hating us. If I had the heart for it, I'd hate you back. Unfortunately, you're barely worth my contempt and fall far short of earning my hatred.

Is it your belief that pointing out problems in the US or the US Government makes a person anti-American?

 

Nothing about Bowling for Columbine is anti-US. I doubt anyone from around the world watched the film and said to themselves I hate Americans now. They might think, theres a lot of problems with the US, but thats something different.

[OLD SKOOL WHEELMAN]

Yeah, it will probably snow in hell before an american spends money on something educational. You go watch Spiderman 2 instead..

Thanks for the permission...

 

EDUCATION!!!!

EVEN MORE F***ING INFORMATION!

[Cantousent]

Yeah, it will probably snow in hell before an american spends money on something educational. You go watch Spiderman 2 instead..

...And how am I to take this comment? Actually, it's simply not true. I've spent quite a bit on education. That's not the point, though, is it?

 

If you haven't made such comments, then rest assured I did not include you in my statement. To be fair to mkreku, I've heard a lot worse from folks.

[triCritical]

One fellow here cites Noam Chomsky

[FO24EvA]

Moore, while entitled to his opinion, is as we all know terribly biased. not exactly the kind of person i would want to direct a documentary, which is by definition "Presenting facts objectively without editorializing or inserting fictional matter, as in a book or film." Moore is more of a propaganandist. His goal is to convince people that their government is not in capable hands. George Bush, for all his faults loves his country very much. I feel confident that he would lay down his life to defend it. Can we say that about many other politicians? Can we say that about Mr. Moore? Conservatives have an opinion too. I hope that everyone can research for themselves and formulate their own beliefs on a subject without taking Moore's "documentary" at face value.

[JohnDoe]

George Bush, for all his faults loves his country very much. I feel confident that he would lay down his life to defend it.

Maybe, but does that make him a competent president?

[Ivan the Terrible]

George Bush, for all his faults loves his country very much. I feel confident that he would lay down his life to defend it.

Then why didn't he? He was of age during the Vietnam War, and he instead joined the National Guard and stayed home.

[Cantousent]

Whether or not George Bush is a good president is a different issue.

 

In fact, Mr. Doe makes a great point. What makes a good president? Conviction? I dunno.

 

Here's my point about the movie. If you believe President Bush is a bad president, then the facts should support your belief. If you are forced to resort to manipulating the truth, or turning your back on it entirely, it makes me wonder if the facts don't support your argument.

 

Lies in ragards to choosing candidates are wrong. Conspiracy theories based on tenuous evidence and spurious logic are wrong. I hated the ridiculous statements about Clinton's so called criminal activities. Simply put, our democracy, ANY democracy, must be based on rational consideration of the facts. Whether or not you hate Bush, you should at least understand that people like Moore are using tactics that undermine not only the current president, but the entire political process. The one fact that I can take to heart is that I don't believe most Americans are swayed by Moore. They apparently weren't swayed by the conspiracy theories regarding Clinton, either.

[EnderAndrew]

Yeah, it will probably snow in hell before an american spends money on something educational. You go watch Spiderman 2 instead..

Hasn't it been pointed out numerous times that Michael Moore flat out lies?

 

Not only does he chop out speeches, and reassemble them to say something completely different, but he has flat out lied in many of his statements.

 

He uses facts and numbers made up, claims documents say things that they don't, etc.

 

If you define educational as something that adheres to your particular flavor of political views, then I'm sure the film is quite educational.

 

And for the record, there is nothing wrong with going to see Spiderman, or some action flick for the purpose of enjoying an action flick. They are movies after-all. If I want to be educated, I'll look online, pick up a book, or attend a class.

[JohnDoe]

If you define educational as something that adheres to your particular flavor of political views, then I'm sure the film is quite educational.

I watch Moores films and I find them thought provoking. Of course, you can't take 1 source, especially one as partisan as Moores, to be the whole and complete truth, just as you can't take a news source like Fox News and expect unbiased coverage.

 

The truth is always in between the various Journalists stories and almost never told completely.

[EnderAndrew]

I will watch the movie out of curiousity, and I found some of his opinions in Bowling for Columbine interesting. The way he pointed to the media's attention to violence was interesting and fresh.

 

However, check out these links.

 

The Truth About Bowling For Columbine

 

Moore Exposed

 

He's not merely a propogandist, which I can live with to a certain extent, though it ruins the spirit of a documentary. He is a flat out liar. And his stunt at the Oscars was also rather childish and uncalled for. I have no respect for Moore whatsoever.

[taks]

LOL!

quote #1

 

"Should a 320lb. man advise us on the perils of overconsumption?"

 

hehe, live right, vote left.

 

taks

[mkreku]

The Truth About Bowling For Columbine

 

Moore Exposed

 

He's not merely a propogandist, which I can live with to a certain extent, though it ruins the spirit of a documentary.  He is a flat out liar.  And his stunt at the Oscars was also rather childish and uncalled for.  I have no respect for Moore whatsoever.

Well, as with anything else, I wouldn't trust those two homemade links you provided. What's to say they're more truthful than Moore? And you (together with a number of people) accuse www.FAIR.org to be editorial?

 

A direct quote from one of your (rather amateurish) sites:

 

"It would be easy to denounce Moore as a hypocrite. Many conservatives denounce him as a leftist, when in fact the serious left, the thinking left, generally finds him appalling. He is, in short, the latest in the modern breed of Limosine Leftists -- individuals who, while personally they share the values of 19th century robber barons, find it flattering to adopt a thin (and personally meaningless) veneer of leftism as a pose, in the same manner they pick a flattering hair style or gown. (A left-leaning critic of Moore summed up the situation very nicely: Moore's appeal lies in his giving wealthy, over-educated, whites an opportunity to laugh at working-class whites.)"

 

Now if that isn't editorial.. (besides.. there's not one single source in the text).

The quote was taken from www.mooreexposed.com, whis is run by ONE guy named David T. Hardy. Actually, now that I look it up, both your sites are made by that one same man! THIS is the true homepage behind those two links you provided. And you choose to trust this one, right wing extremist more than you trust Moore? It's your choice. I do find it funny though that you find FAIR.org editorial but you choose to trust this guy..

 

Also, got to love the fact one of your links above provided a link to this site: If you hate America or Israel then YOU are the enemy.

 

Great stuff. Really.

[EnderAndrew]

Well, those sites I linked have plenty of verifiable evidence.

[taks]

uh, mkreku, nobody said these sites don't put in some of their own editorializing... the "facts" cited, particularly regarding the problems with columbine, are verifiable. 10 minutes on the web. that's what you should be concerned with.

 

when moore cuts up two different ads regarding different topics, splices them together and then subtitles the ads (which were previously NOT subtitled), i think he's engaging in dishonest "documentarizing" for sure. his "facts" are oddly hard to verify...

 

taks

[EnderAndrew]

There lies the problem.

 

Each side, be it leftist or right, is full of propoganda and BS. And people stick to their guns while defending their propoganda and lies by pointing out the same tactics used by the other side.

 

I don't care for Bush or Kerry. But my biggest beef is with dishonesty. I think if I had to vote today, I'd probably vote for Bush because I know what I'm getting. However, I'd be more worried about who I vote into Congress, and my state senate to make sure we have intelligent people monitoring what laws get passed.

 

Kerry completely contradicts everything he said two years ago, let alone three months ago. But that seems to be his party's platform. We stood behind Clinton on the Iraq-Al Quaeda connection, and now pretend we never said such things.

 

Clarke is the worst. If Kerry takes Clarke as his running mate, I am definately not voting for him. But then again, Cheney is pretty bad.

 

Ugh.

[mkreku]

uh, mkreku, nobody said these sites don't put in some of their own editorializing... the "facts" cited, particularly regarding the problems with columbine, are verifiable.  10 minutes on the web.  that's what you should be concerned with.

Well, that's how I feel about Moore. You get hung up about his facts not being entirely correct. Unfortunately, statistics can be bent however you like and therefore there are no hard facts that can't be opposed. Especially those numbers about how many people have been killed by guns and such.. Moore is merely asking people to look at the big picture. More guns = more gun related killings. The numbers should be seen as an approximation since noone knows for sure the exact number. All we know is that the USA has a lot more of those killings than any other country in the world. His critics claim his numbers are false and that he's therefore a liar.. Sigh. That's like dismissing an entire article because of a typo.

[EnderAndrew]

I'm curious. Have you watched Bowling for Columbine?

 

Moore didn't simply say guns are bad. Moore said Americans with guns are bad. He looked at cultures like Japan with violent cartoons, and other countries that had guns and saw no problem. He said the problems were with the NRA which he linked falsely to the KKK, and news programs.

 

And we're not talking about cleverly pointing to numbers that suit your case. He lied about what statues said. He lied about what documents said. He lied about what ads said. He lied when using fictious numbers. Those were unquestionable lies.

 

Then he used questionable tactics of splicing speeches and ads together to create further lies.

 

Most people will agree that violence is bad, and guns are bad. Few people debate that. I have no problem with someone trying to sell me that spin. I have a problem with Moore's tactics. There is no getting around the fact that he's a sleezeball.

[taks]

moore isn't just a victim of typos mkreku... you need to do a bit of research. we aren't talking about "stretching" statistics or making bad quotes... he literally takes parts of different interviews and stitches them together out of context to convey different meaning.

 

there's a very good reason real politicians on the left don't quote moore or make any of the same connections he does... because they just don't cut it under truly objective, intellectual scrutiny.

 

taks

[mkreku]

I'm curious. Have you watched Bowling for Columbine?

 

Moore didn't simply say guns are bad. Moore said Americans with guns are bad. He looked at cultures like Japan with violent cartoons, and other countries that had guns and saw no problem. He said the problems were with the NRA which he linked falsely to the KKK, and news programs.

 

And we're not talking about cleverly pointing to numbers that suit your case. He lied about what statues said. He lied about what documents said. He lied about what ads said. He lied when using fictious numbers. Those were unquestionable lies.

 

Then he used questionable tactics of splicing speeches and ads together to create further lies.

 

Most people will agree that violence is bad, and guns are bad. Few people debate that. I have no problem with someone trying to sell me that spin. I have a problem with Moore's tactics. There is no getting around the fact that he's a sleezeball.

Yes, I have watched Bowling For Columbine. Could you please point out to me where in that movie Moore says "Americans with guns are bad." because I can't find it? And you say he lies about statues and documents and what not. I didn't see that either.

 

My version of the movie was subtitled, and there was NO indication that he was quoting the plaque on the statues. To me it appeared that he read some of what was said on them and then added his own opinion to it. If that's a lie to you, then you claiming Moore said "Americans with guns are bad." is a lie to me. Fortunately I understand that that quote is your interpretation of what Moore says, and if you're clever (which I assume you are) then you should be able to look past minor errors like that in Moore's movie too and see the big picture.