taks Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 But I agree in most of those cases there was a conflict of some sort there already. most definitely... i'd argue it's also not usually to improve our wealth/world position, either... usually it is to help out an oppressed society. certainly our world position has not improve by liberating iraq, nor has our wealth. even the most questionable of our 20th century conflicts (vietnam) was executed in the name of preserving democracy against the tyranny of communism... there wasn't any wealth or world position to be had there. taks comrade taks... just because. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Product of the Cosmos Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 "certainly our world position has not improve by liberating iraq, nor has our wealth." Our as in you and me? I could agree with that, but that would be where our agreement ends if you meant moreso. IMO we are liquidating Iraq's $ and power into our own pockets in many ways. Heres how it happens: We bomb the snot out of their cities, then send in our Bush friendly corporations like Bechtel Halliburton etcetcetcetc to rebuild what we bombed, and what should be there. We use our tax money, and their oil money, to rebuild. So in essense their oil money goes to our super-corps. Also, the 'US friendly regime' there we prop up will abide by our ruling with their resources. If someone there is killed its automatically a Iraqi insurgence. I bet thats quite the threatening tool when you have arguably the worlds most complete and professional assasin tactics and groups like we do. Another way we gain in war is an advertisement for our corporation-made weapons. After the first gulf war US Arms sales went up 500%, 8 billion in '90, 40 billion in '91. We used all kinds of deadly new stuff.. And countries like India and Pakistan were impressed. And showed it with their pocketbooks. Its IMO a way for the corporate bigwigs like GE(which owns NBC and makes parts for nearly every military bomb, vehicle, etc) to get our tax dollars. GE owns hundreds of media sources across the world. A fuel for their bias and propaganda. As well as our gas prices skyrocketing. After the first gulf war the big oil companies shared major profits. Heres the #'s: Exxon(A huge factor in the raping of Central America as well in early 1900's as named Standard Oil instead of Exxon at the time) earnings soar 75% after the first gulf war Amoco 68.6% Mobil 45.6% Texaco 26.5% Chevron 17.8% Is it coincidence all these corporations also support Bush in campagn $? All the war monger companies gain billion every war we fight in. For example in 1999(Kosovo was the big $ attraction that year) United Technology 2.4 billion Textron 1.4 billion Northrop Grumman 3.2 billion Boeing 11.6 billion Raytheon 6.4 billion GE 1.7 billion General Dynamics 4.6 billion Lockheed martin 12.7 billion TRW 1.4 billion + the other 100,000+ companies that feed off the pentagon which coincidently the majority of own pieces of media sources, prescription drug companies, the list goes on. Chew on this for a moment, the media, which is largely owned by these war feeding companies, in the last decade or so has raised their reports of crime by 600%. In the same amount of time crime has actually decreased with all areas considered an average of 10%! But i guess its good strategy if you dont giva **** about the well being of the world. Keep people in fear, and they won't argue their tax dollars being spent in the trillions on war materials. As for spreading democracy.... IMO thats a total crock with rare exception. We have taken peoples democratically elected leaders down many MANY times. We train terrorists and soon to be dictators in a school in Georgia, which it teaches torture, propaganda, execution, and numerous other ways to keep a people in check. Then we send them to go run a country where we prop them up in. We play a nasty game for our wealth. It's a common misconception that America is a spreader of democracy and freedom.. Its quite contrary to a huge population of people on this planet. But I totally agree Saddam was a douchebag.. Who wouldn't..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taks Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 that's some awfully potent rhetoric there... as well as unfounded conspiracy. these war-mongering oil giants, btw, contribute to both parties... not just the bush camp. it's easy to provide anecdote regarding the ties between our presence in iraq and all these companies, but there's just no proof of a conspiracy. we're spending more than we're getting back, even after you consider the big "contracts" that our companies are receiving. all these companies that reap the benefits of contracts would have ended up with such contracts regardless of whether we stepped in to iraq or kosovo or not... such conflicts only serve to speed up the process. yeah, sure, we've had to pick the lesser of two evils rather often. even had to remove "democratically elected" dictators. but an oppressive dictator is an oppressive dictator even if the people did elect him 30 years ago... unsupported conspiracy theory product... you're taking the farthest extreme "if ALL of these things line up and happen to be related, then my point stands" position. taks comrade taks... just because. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triCritical Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 He is also an outright liar. And the United States didn't start a single war in the 20th century. We did have hands in assisting regime changes in countries that already have an internal war going on. That didn't mean we started a war. Actually MIchael Moore makes this quite clear in "Dude, where's my country." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triCritical Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 these war-mongering oil giants, btw, contribute to both parties... not just the bush camp. Reason why Nader gives Democrats a D+ and the republicans a D-. Not to mention, why Howard Dean was so popular. Lastly why the ABB is so popular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taks Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 ABB? any ideology is frought with problems... power corrupts on both sides equally well. however, the "grand conspiracies" touted by BOTH sides are nothing more than tounge-in-cheeck conjecture designed to rile up the masses in favor of your cause. certainly there are small-scale conspiracies that abound (hence the reason for laws related to such things) but nothing so massive as what product is claiming... taks comrade taks... just because. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triCritical Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 Anybody But Bush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 Reason why Nader gives Democrats a D+ and the republicans a D-. Not to mention, why Howard Dean was so popular. Lastly why the ABB is so popular. Howard Dean, popular? And beauty is in the eye of the beholder as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phosphor Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 And beauty is in the eye of the beholder as well. I guess that's how people can stomach supporting Bush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 And beauty is in the eye of the beholder as well. I guess that's how people can stomach supporting Bush. Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Product of the Cosmos Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 "these war-mongering oil giants, btw, contribute to both parties... not just the bush camp. I never said I was a democrat... lol. I just say Bush because he has the power pen. Not a democrat. "but there's just no proof of a conspiracy" Im pretty sure the only conspiracy that is unprovable in my previous post at this point is our powers threatening the Iraqi regime. I have no way to know that. But i see it as high probability if the Iraq propped up regime decides to be independant of US influenced decisions. Comes as result of studying who runs this planet... Not just this country. "power corrupts on both sides equally well. however, the "grand conspiracies" touted by BOTH sides are nothing more than tounge-in-cheeck conjecture designed to rile up the masses in favor of your cause.' I am not a democrat. I dislike Kerry as well. Only reason why I vote for democrats at this time is because democrat followers(notice I did not say the party itself) are generally more environmentally sound. And yes Kerry is corrupted as well IMO, but his strategists know he wont keep his support if he doesnt do certain things. At this point permanent damage to our one and only home is the #1 priority for me. Not what will make my paycheck bigger in my union(like Kerry followers), or something like hate for Gays(like many Bush followers). Bush's party knows their followers are so ignorant they can step all over so many things and keep their supporters. Not all Bush supporters I have met are completely irrational. But most are. Ive met more 'gun-totin hick Cletus and Gunthers' supporting Bush than anything. "unsupported conspiracy theory product." lol. I guess the money and backround of our leaders doesnt speak for itself for you. Its quite supported. Im grateful for your cognicence tho.. By this time ussually Im being attacked immaturely by angry dreamland defenders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Product of the Cosmos Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 If your tired of politics check this out!!!!!!!! http://home.cwru.edu/~gjc2/donwave.gif blows the mind............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taks Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 your theory and conjecture are just that, product. you've produced nothing but ANECDOTE as fact to prove a point... there is no provable "grand conspiracy" with defense contractors OR oil companies, and to follow up you merely state " Im pretty sure the only conspiracy that is unprovable in my previous post"... by what evidence? you're pretty sure? so you have years of foreign policy experience perhaps as a diplomat? or you're just relying on oft slanted media reports (slanted towards sensational)? get real. if you're going to spout nonsense, at least do me the courtesy of feigned attempts to not insult my intelligence. my point in stating that both sides partake in dubious dealings has nothing to do with your political beliefs. it stands on its own that ALL politiciancs make back-door deals and in the end, cater to themselves first. a by-product of power i suppose. taks comrade taks... just because. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro Protagonist Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 And beauty is in the eye of the beholder as well. I guess that's how people can stomach supporting Bush. For some people, they seem to see Bush differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Product of the Cosmos Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 your theory and conjecture are just that, product. you've produced nothing but ANECDOTE as fact to prove a point... there is no provable "grand conspiracy" with defense contractors OR oil companies, and to follow up you merely state " Im pretty sure the only conspiracy that is unprovable in my previous post"... by what evidence? you're pretty sure? so you have years of foreign policy experience perhaps as a diplomat? or you're just relying on oft slanted media reports (slanted towards sensational)? get real. if you're going to spout nonsense, at least do me the courtesy of feigned attempts to not insult my intelligence. my point in stating that both sides partake in dubious dealings has nothing to do with your political beliefs. it stands on its own that ALL politiciancs make back-door deals and in the end, cater to themselves first. a by-product of power i suppose. taks Im naming facts. Xcept the one thing about assasins in Iraq, which is highly likely but I wouldnt say fact. The facts speak for themselves. Its pretty obvious IMO. If my logic of using facts with other knowledge I have gained disturbs you that much I'm sorry. Ya the world is disturbing. Coming to terms with how ****ed it is a first step to making it better. "so you have years of foreign policy experience perhaps as a diplomat? or you're just relying on oft slanted media reports (slanted towards sensational)? get real." My experiences are beyond your imagination apparently. But thats beyond the point. I don't rely on slanted media reports.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volourn Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 "My experiences are beyond your imagination apparently. But thats beyond the point. I don't rely on slanted media reports.. " Yeah, 'cause instead of relying on so called slanted media reports; you rely on this fellow: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/a...raq_terrorism_1 DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderAndrew Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Damn Americans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Product of the Cosmos Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 I do not rely on any one source Volo.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostStraw Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 Damn Americans. Damn strait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Product of the Cosmos Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 Damn Americans. Damn strait. Its not us it our gov't/ruling powers... But I guess were responsible since we 'let' it happen. We get screwed.... We get taxes taken from our paycheck filtered to our influencing powers. We fight and die for our influencing powers. We get attacked by terrorists as result of our governing powers. Then we are hated by many because our governing powers being inconsiderate ****. lol. Then were herded into fearful and ignorant mindsets by our media. On top of that, Americans 'in the know' of our countries downfalls get attacked by blind patriots of our own country... Bad deal if ya ask me.. lol. 'Me agianst the world' including my own country, is felt by Americans like myself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantousent Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 Damn Americans. Damn strait. Its not us it our gov't/ruling powers... But I guess were responsible since we 'let' it happen. [insert a ridiculous rant ending with] 'Me agianst the world' including my own country, is felt by Americans like myself... Droning on about these mysterious "powers" is absolutely ridiculous. Where is the money passed from point A to point B? Where is the payoff? I suppose that it happens in some back room deal where we can't see it? I also suppose that the onus is on me to "disprove" your theory? After all, you take a variety of unrelated facts (choosing only those items which support your ridiculous claim) and then package them together to "prove" that the Gnomes of Zurich or some such are the true "powers" behind our government. Other people must be misled because they don't see the obvious truth. ...Or they must be part of the massive conspiracy. These conspiracy theories made Republicans look ridiculous during the 90s and now it appears the Democrats don't want to be left out of the game. On the other hand, you, Product, have all the markings of a true conspiracy theorist. Truly, you transcend political parties. You are a theorist, my friend. Policy discussion must be beneath you. After all, why discuss the politics of the day when you can allude to your so-called evidence of rampant conspiracy? Well, please, provide some more web page research to prove your point that the Gnomes of Illuminati are running our lives. Rather, they're running your life. If the Gnomes are running my life (a notion I discard out of hand) then they're doing a pretty damned good job. Now, let me tell what I find dangerous: some ridiculous conspiracy theorist essentially telling me that because he has a feeling about some obscure conspiracy that our democracy is somehow malformed. After all, you don't like our government and bemoan the fact that "other Americans" have put it in place? I'm sure you would do away with all the conspirators and remake our country to fit what you know to be right. It wouldn't be a democracy, but it would certainly be better, right? You, sir, don't deserve the democracy that has served us so well for over 200 years. In 35 years, every president in office has been my president, whether I voted for him or not. It is simple, our government makes policy decisions, many of which are policy mistakes, but it is our government. I'm proud of our democracy and part of that is trying to dredge up some patience while listening to you. After all, while I find you boorish, misguided, and disgusting, I don't want to deny you the freedom of speech. My freedom and yours. It's our God given right. Go ahead, drag up another "internet authority" to prove, somehow, that the Gnomes are running things. Go on about how our country isn't really free and how you're persecuted and... whatever the hell you people say. The country will continue and people like you, often fat from the bounty you owe to the very country you deride, will continue to enjoy your freedom to speak. Fionavar's Holliday Wishes to all members of our online community: Happy Holidays Join the revelry at the Obsidian Plays channel:Obsidian Plays Remembering tarna, Phosphor, Metadigital, and Visceris. Drink mead heartily in the halls of Valhalla, my friends! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'JN Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 Gnomes of the Illuminati? You mean those garden gnomes with the lights on them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taks Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 Im naming facts. Xcept the one thing about assasins in Iraq, which is highly likely but I wouldnt say fact. The facts speak for themselves. Its pretty obvious IMO. If my logic of using facts with other knowledge I have gained disturbs you that much I'm sorry. Ya the world is disturbing. Coming to terms with how ****ed it is a first step to making it better. ... My experiences are beyond your imagination apparently. But thats beyond the point. I don't rely on slanted media reports.. WHAT FACTS? you've done nothing but make vain attempts to connect world events to some grand conspiracy. where are the facts? i've seen not one bit of true connection/causation nor any evidence of backroom deals. to top it off, you stated quite clearly "I'm pretty sure the only theory that is unprovable..." (bold italics mine...) PRETTY SURE? PRETTY SURE? i thought you were stating FACTS! the FACTS speak for themselves! a fact is undeniable, a truth, that which cannot be disproved... yet quite clearly you state right there that you can't completely back up your claims without uncertainty. must not be very factual (nor logical) then... also, btw, i'm curious how you can state you don't rely on slanted media reports, yet nothing you've posted is anything more than a media report. no documents, no real "smoking gun", just conjecture which i've already noted. taks comrade taks... just because. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vault-Tech Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 i know i havnt been here in awile but i found this funney website check out this link and scroll down to dissonest dubya. http://hatebush.com/hatebush04.com.html also check out the rest at http://hatebush.com/ :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taks Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 i'm not sure what that has to do with this discussion, but there is another thread related to the environmental issues if you're so inclined... taks comrade taks... just because. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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