The All Things Political Topic

[Hawke64]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/aug/07/thousands-of-anti-racism-protesters-take-to-streets-to-counter-far-right-rallies

Quote

Thousands of anti-racism protesters gathered across England and formed human shields to protect asylum centres after police warned of unrest from more than 100 far right-led rallies.

Holding placards saying “refugees welcome” and “reject racism, try therapy”, people took to the streets in towns and cities nine days after the country was shaken by the fatal stabbing of three girls in Merseyside and the rioting that followed. But there was little sign of the unrest seen over the past week.

[...]

Lawyers’ offices shut down, high street shops were boarded up, GP practices closed early and MPs were told to consider working from home as 41 of the 43 local police force areas in England and Wales braced for potential disorder.

About 6,000 riot-trained officers were drafted in to tackle the expected rallies and an estimated 30 counter-protests after immigration law firms and refugee centres were listed as potential targets in a far-right chat group on the encrypted messaging app Telegram.

But instead, thousands of counter-protesters took to the streets of Liverpool, Birmingham, Bristol, Brighton and London to protect their communities.

3 British children were lethally stabbed by a British teenager. The racists claimed that the teenager was a Muslim refugee (due to him being a teenager, the personal details were not released immediately) and attacked asylum centres and mosques.
It is comforting to know that there are more anti-racism protesters.

[Gorgon]

It's completely mad, they are expecting more protests maybe more violence this weekend. How is this still a thing a week later ?

In the middle of everything Elon Musk tweets "civil war is inevitable", like he's trying to boost X's share price. He's literally making money by throwing gasoline on the fire.

[Malcador]

45 minutes ago, Gorgon said:

It's completely mad, they are expecting more protests maybe more violence this weekend. How is this still a thing a week later ?

No football yet.

[Hawke64]

8 hours ago, Gorgon said:

It's completely mad, they are expecting more protests maybe more violence this weekend. How is this still a thing a week later ?

In the middle of everything Elon Musk tweets "civil war is inevitable", like he's trying to boost X's share price. He's literally making money by throwing gasoline on the fire.

Pretty much. 2 things to add - the prisons are at 99% capacity as is and the far right violent protesters at the moment received at most 3 years in prison (I might be wrong here and there have been longer sentences which I have missed). Non-violent environmental protesters received 5 years for trying to sit on a road (this particular group being rather not effective is another matter). I cannot say how much the previous government affected the current situation, with blaming immigrants, people with disabilities, and transgender people for the economic situation in the UK.

Musk has been doing irrational things (or inciting violence against vulnerable social groups, if I am being less polite) for quite some time now. I am curious if he is going to face any consequences beyond the advertisers leaving Xitter*. He seems to be trying to sue them, though.

*Unfortunately, GARM is hurting not only Musk, but it is another topic.

Edited August 10 by Hawke64

[uuuhhii]

35 minutes ago, Hawke64 said:

Pretty much. 2 things to add - the prisons are at 99% capacity as is and the far right violent protesters at the moment received at most 3 years in prison (I might be wrong here and there have been longer sentences which I have missed). Non-violent environmental protesters received 5 years for trying to sit on a road (this particular group being rather not effective is another matter). I cannot say how much the previous government affected the current situation, with blaming immigrants, people with disabilities, and transgender people for the economic situation in the UK.

Musk has been doing irrational things (or inciting violence against vulnerable social groups, if I am being less polite) for quite some time now. I am curious if he is going to face any consequences beyond the advertisers leaving Xitter*. He seems to be trying to sue them, though.

*Unfortunately, GARM is hurting not only Musk, but it is another topic.

 

far right violence just trying to massacre a few thousand people

environmentalist want to reduce megacorp profitability

a far more terrifying crime

[Chairchucker]

On 7/11/2024 at 10:28 PM, BruceVC said:

Yes I did read it but if you dont  mind try to be more specific about what you think my view is or how a link doesn't support what Im saying 

My view has not changed in any of the posts I have made, Im saying that the  view that Trump\GOP  is "racist\fascist " is an opinion and its not shared by all people of colour who vote for GOP around there voting decisions 

They are voting for the GOP for reasons and policies that resonate with them . Here is the original link I posted and it goes into more details about this 

https://theconversation.com/what-early-2024-polls-are-revealing-about-voters-of-color-and-the-gop-and-its-not-all-about-donald-trump-227534

" Two explanations have emerged to explain Trump’s growth in support among voters of color.The first is based on the faulty assumption, made by some Democratic strategists that the increasing racial and ethnic diversity of the U.S. electorate would automatically benefit Democratic candidates. This assumption rests on the idea that voters of color are inherently progressive on issues such as education, social services, health care and criminal justice reform. According to this line of thinking, Trump’s polling numbers are mostly the result of poor messaging by the Democrats – a failure to remind voters of color that their interests align with Joe Biden, not Trump.The second explanation is that voters of color are inherently conservative, particularly working-class Black and Latino men, who identify more closely with the political right on issues such as immigration, law and order and cultural conservativism." 

 

 

 

I posted a reply a little while back that is somewhat lengthier than this one is gonna be and the forum ate it so I gave up and did other things instead but I'm back and will try again I guess.

 

My original post was primarily addressing your claim that you "base [your] views on politics around the policies of parties and outcomes", and I listed a number of outcomes. It's curious that you ignored all of that and went instead for my side comment about Trump's racism. Almost as if your claims that the things you cared most about were policies and outcomes, was a lie. The main point in that paragraph wasn't about Trump's racism in and of itself, but the flow on effects of that.

 

The 'record numbers' spoken of by the article you posted were 17%, up from 8%. Obviously even 8% is still too high, but I guess black people are just as capable of voting against their own interests as white people are. The article does not even attempt to argue that Trump is not racist, it moreso lays out some of the reasons that he is, as a contrast to the point that black people seem to be voting for him anyway. The article's point is not, 'black people are voting for Trump, therefore how racist could he be?' It is more, 'black people are voting for Trump despite his racism.' The actual given reasons for this change is things like younger black voters not having the same attachment to civil rights legacy movements, or disillusionment with the Democratic party not treating black voters particularly well even despite the fact that it's been black voters who have consistently been more likely to vote Democrat. The article is more an indictment of the way the Democrats have taken the black vote for granted, than it is remotely vindicating Trump from being racist.

[BruceVC]

4 hours ago, Chairchucker said:

I posted a reply a little while back that is somewhat lengthier than this one is gonna be and the forum ate it so I gave up and did other things instead but I'm back and will try again I guess.

 

My original post was primarily addressing your claim that you "base [your] views on politics around the policies of parties and outcomes", and I listed a number of outcomes. It's curious that you ignored all of that and went instead for my side comment about Trump's racism. Almost as if your claims that the things you cared most about were policies and outcomes, was a lie. The main point in that paragraph wasn't about Trump's racism in and of itself, but the flow on effects of that.

 

The 'record numbers' spoken of by the article you posted were 17%, up from 8%. Obviously even 8% is still too high, but I guess black people are just as capable of voting against their own interests as white people are. The article does not even attempt to argue that Trump is not racist, it moreso lays out some of the reasons that he is, as a contrast to the point that black people seem to be voting for him anyway. The article's point is not, 'black people are voting for Trump, therefore how racist could he be?' It is more, 'black people are voting for Trump despite his racism.' The actual given reasons for this change is things like younger black voters not having the same attachment to civil rights legacy movements, or disillusionment with the Democratic party not treating black voters particularly well even despite the fact that it's been black voters who have consistently been more likely to vote Democrat. The article is more an indictment of the way the Democrats have taken the black vote for granted, than it is remotely vindicating Trump from being racist.

I  generally dont like to get into debates on the Internet where as a white person I assume to know why people of colour vote and why they should vote for party x or party y

Because there are a  myriad of reasons why someone would vote for a particular candidate and these reasons vary from person to person, as I mentioned I dont subscribe to identity politics as a good reason why people vote because IMO that represents only about 20% of total votes in countries like the US or South Africa. Its a voting factor but its not the main reason, the main reason people vote in the US is around Conservative and Leftie\Liberal views and policies  and that cuts across all races 

I can and do comment around how white people vote because I have more affinity and understanding of my own ethnic group but of course I dont generalize about white people either because we vote for different reasons 

So what I am saying is its not a convincing point for me  to say " black people wont vote for Trump because he is racist "  

Thats a reason for some black people but its not the main or only reason for most black people and which party they vote for 

 

[Chairchucker]

4 hours ago, BruceVC said:

So what I am saying is its not a convincing point for me  to say " black people wont vote for Trump because he is racist " 

Good thing that's nowhere near what I said at any point.

 

To recap, my original point, in direct response to your dubious claim that you "base [your] views on politics around the policies of parties and outcomes," was that among the outcomes of a Trump presidency was that in 2017, white supremacist propaganda on college campuses tripled, hate groups increased by 4% and hate crimes by 17%. Some other outcomes were the Department of Agriculture being banned from using the term 'climate change', executive orders gutting obamacare, withdrawal of federal protection for trans students, reductions of rights for federal employees, making it easier for fossil fuel companies to lay pipelines, and scaling back environmental reviews when building highway.

 

So it is just super weird that you decided to ignore the actual point of my post and argue a barely relevant point using a source that didn't actually support your position, and now respond by arguing against a claim I never made.

[BruceVC]

2 hours ago, Chairchucker said:

Good thing that's nowhere near what I said at any point.

 

To recap, my original point, in direct response to your dubious claim that you "base [your] views on politics around the policies of parties and outcomes," was that among the outcomes of a Trump presidency was that in 2017, white supremacist propaganda on college campuses tripled, hate groups increased by 4% and hate crimes by 17%. Some other outcomes were the Department of Agriculture being banned from using the term 'climate change', executive orders gutting obamacare, withdrawal of federal protection for trans students, reductions of rights for federal employees, making it easier for fossil fuel companies to lay pipelines, and scaling back environmental reviews when building highway.

 

So 

But my  original point wasnt  anything about the things you mentioned  in this  post

My point is its not clear  to me if Trump is racist in  the  traditional definition of racism  when it manifests  itself  amongst white people  and that for me means  ideological views  like Neo-Nazi,  KKK or  white supremacist .  I dont think Trump is anything like  these groups.  But he  can be offensive and he  sometimes  generalizes  in a derogatory  way  about ethnic groups when he makes  certain points and sometimes  these  points are real concerns to Americans,  like  illegal   migration and  the  border crisis, but he ends  up making the  argument badly or inaccurately 

But I  can answer your post and questions but that wasnt  my original  point and also can you more specific about which one you want me  to respond to, you have at least  8-9  points?  Personally I would prefer to  respond to  these "  white supremacist propaganda on college campuses tripled, hate groups increased by 4% and hate crimes by 17"?

 

 

[BruceVC]

2 hours ago, Chairchucker said:

Good thing that's nowhere near what I said at any point.

 

To recap, my original point, in direct response to your dubious claim that you "base [your] views on politics around the policies of parties and outcomes," was that among the outcomes of a Trump presidency was that in 2017, white supremacist propaganda on college campuses tripled, hate groups increased by 4% and hate crimes by 17%. Some other outcomes were the Department of Agriculture being banned from using the term 'climate change', executive orders gutting obamacare, withdrawal of federal protection for trans students, reductions of rights for federal employees, making it easier for fossil fuel companies to lay pipelines, and scaling back environmental reviews when building highway.

 

So 

But my  original point wasnt  anything about the things you mentioned  in this  post

My point is its not clear  to me if Trump is racist in  the  traditional definition of racism  when it manifests  itself  amongst white people  and that for me means  ideological views  like Neo-Nazi,  KKK or  white supremacist .  I dont think Trump is anything like  these groups.  But he  can be offensive and he  sometimes  generalizes  in a derogatory  way  about ethnic groups when he makes  certain points and sometimes  these  points are real concerns to Americans,  like  illegal   migration and  the  border crisis, but he ends  up making the  argument badly or inaccurately 

But I  can answer your post and questions but that wasnt  my original  point and also can you more specific about which one you want me  to respond to, you have at least  8-9  points?  Personally I would prefer to  respond to  these "  white supremacist propaganda on college campuses tripled, hate groups increased by 4% and hate crimes by 17"?

 

 

[Hurlshort]

https://www.cnn.com/2016/10/07/politics/trump-larry-king-central-park-five/index.html

Sure, not a racist bone in his body.

[Chairchucker]

18 hours ago, BruceVC said:

But my  original point wasnt  anything about the things you mentioned  in this  post

My point is its not clear  to me if Trump is racist in  the  traditional definition of racism  when it manifests  itself  amongst white people  and that for me means  ideological views  like Neo-Nazi,  KKK or  white supremacist .  I dont think Trump is anything like  these groups.  But he  can be offensive and he  sometimes  generalizes  in a derogatory  way  about ethnic groups when he makes  certain points and sometimes  these  points are real concerns to Americans,  like  illegal   migration and  the  border crisis, but he ends  up making the  argument badly or inaccurately 

But I  can answer your post and questions but that wasnt  my original  point and also can you more specific about which one you want me  to respond to, you have at least  8-9  points?  Personally I would prefer to  respond to  these "  white supremacist propaganda on college campuses tripled, hate groups increased by 4% and hate crimes by 17"?

This is a direct quote from one of your posts, and the part of it to which I was responding:

 

"I base my views on politics around the policies of parties and outcomes, I dont subscribe to identity politics or personality politics."

Because you claimed that you base your views on politics around policies and outcomes, I shared a number of outcomes. You appeared reluctant to discuss those outcomes.

 

Since you would prefer to talk about whether or not Trump is racist, a thing you seemed to be claiming was not your priority, let's do that I guess.

Donald Trump was super big on the 'birther' conspiracy theories. A thing that has coincidentally only been targeted at Barack and Kamala, but interestingly not Donald Trump, whose mother was born in Scotland and whose father was born to German immigrants. He continued arguing for these conspiracy theories years after the release of Obama's long form birth certificate.

He called Mexican immigrants criminals and rapists.

After two of his supporters beat a homeless Latino man with a metal pipe, he said '...the people that are following me are very passionate. They love this country and they want this country to be great again."

He said that the federal judge who presided over the Trump Uni fraud case couldn't do his job because he was "of Mexican heritage."

After four black men and one Latino were cleared of rape by way of DNA evidence, he took out a full page ad calling for New York to being back the death penalty to punish them.

Trump signed a travel ban from seven Muslin-majority countries. He later claimed that this would protect the USA from terrorists. When he said that, in the fifteen years since the 11 September attacks, not one of the terrorists who killed people in American were from any of the countries he enacted a travel ban against. Also, for some reason he didn't ban travelers from Muslim-majority countries where he held large business interests, like Saudi Arabia or Turkiye.

He referred to Elizabeth Warren as 'Pocahantas,' (on a few occasions including during a speech to Native American veterans of WWII) and said that the only reason she claimed Native American heritage was she had 'high cheekbones'. (WTF?)

He reportedly said that Haitians "all have AIDS" and Nigerian immigrants would never "go back to their huts."

His campaign chose a white nationalist to serve among California's delegates.

After a bunch of white supremacists marched and shouted slogans like "The Jews will not replace us," a white nationalist drove his car into some counter protesters and killed one. Trump said that there was both blame and 'very fine people' on both sides.

He complained about the removal of Confederate monuments.

He pardoned a mayor who was convicted of criminal contempt for racially profiling Latinos.

He called NFL players who protested police brutality against black people by kneeling during the anthem 'sons of bitches' and said they should be fired.

He retweeted anti-Muslim videos from the deputy leader of a British ultranationalist hate group.

He is reported to have referred to Haiti, El Salvador, and African nations as '****hole countries', questioned why the USA would want to allow immigrants from those countries, and suggested the US try to get more immigrants from places like Norway.

He presided over a policy of separating immigrant children from their parents.

He suggested that four congresswomen of colour, all of whom were American citizens and three of whom were born in the USA, go back to their countries.

He kept referring to COVID-19 as the 'Chinese virus' even after the World Health Organisation advised him not to because it could give rise to racial profiling.

He tweeted a video of his supporter shouting 'white power' at anti-Trump supporters.

He called the phrase 'Black Lives Matter' a 'symbol of hate'.

He promised to veto a Defence bill, over a provision for removing the names of Confederate generals from military bases.

He declined to condemn the Proud Boys, white supremacists who endorse violence.

 

If it's not clear to you that Trump is racist, that does not reflect well on you.

[Hurlshort]

In his pseudo-defense, I do think for Trump it is less about the color of a person's skin and more about winning over his racist base. So maybe Trump isn't racist, he just does a lot of racist things. 

[Lexx]

“You are what you do, not what you say you'll do.”
― Carl Gustav Jung

[Pidesco]

4 hours ago, Hurlshort said:

In his pseudo-defense, I do think for Trump it is less about the color of a person's skin and more about winning over his racist base. So maybe Trump isn't racist, he just does a lot of racist things. 

He was saying and doing racist things long before he went into politics.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

"I've known Jeff for fifteen years. Terrific guy, he's a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side. No doubt about it—Jeffrey enjoys his social life." - Donald Trump

Look, it's obvious to anyone who doesn't have **** for brains that Trump is an awful guy who believes awful **** and has done awful ****. Why bother trying to engage in good faith with those who have none? Just call Trump a pedo and spam the above quote with one of the many pics of him and his good buddy Jeff. Will save much time and frustration.

[Hurlshort]

7 hours ago, Pidesco said:

He was saying and doing racist things long before he went into politics.

He has always been about the politics, though. Or rather, he has always been about power consolidation, whether it is in business or politics. Not that it excuses his actions and words, but it does all go a bit deeper than just 'racism' when it comes to Trump. I'd almost say it is more dangerous that isn't just hatred that motivates him. 

[BruceVC]

18 hours ago, Chairchucker said:

This is a direct quote from one of your posts, and the part of it to which I was responding:

 

"I base my views on politics around the policies of parties and outcomes, I dont subscribe to identity politics or personality politics."

Because you claimed that you base your views on politics around policies and outcomes, I shared a number of outcomes. You appeared reluctant to discuss those outcomes.

 

Since you would prefer to talk about whether or not Trump is racist, a thing you seemed to be claiming was not your priority, let's do that I guess.

Donald Trump was super big on the 'birther' conspiracy theories. A thing that has coincidentally only been targeted at Barack and Kamala, but interestingly not Donald Trump, whose mother was born in Scotland and whose father was born to German immigrants. He continued arguing for these conspiracy theories years after the release of Obama's long form birth certificate.

He called Mexican immigrants criminals and rapists.

After two of his supporters beat a homeless Latino man with a metal pipe, he said '...the people that are following me are very passionate. They love this country and they want this country to be great again."

He said that the federal judge who presided over the Trump Uni fraud case couldn't do his job because he was "of Mexican heritage."

After four black men and one Latino were cleared of rape by way of DNA evidence, he took out a full page ad calling for New York to being back the death penalty to punish them.

Trump signed a travel ban from seven Muslin-majority countries. He later claimed that this would protect the USA from terrorists. When he said that, in the fifteen years since the 11 September attacks, not one of the terrorists who killed people in American were from any of the countries he enacted a travel ban against. Also, for some reason he didn't ban travelers from Muslim-majority countries where he held large business interests, like Saudi Arabia or Turkiye.

He referred to Elizabeth Warren as 'Pocahantas,' (on a few occasions including during a speech to Native American veterans of WWII) and said that the only reason she claimed Native American heritage was she had 'high cheekbones'. (WTF?)

He reportedly said that Haitians "all have AIDS" and Nigerian immigrants would never "go back to their huts."

His campaign chose a white nationalist to serve among California's delegates.

After a bunch of white supremacists marched and shouted slogans like "The Jews will not replace us," a white nationalist drove his car into some counter protesters and killed one. Trump said that there was both blame and 'very fine people' on both sides.

He complained about the removal of Confederate monuments.

He pardoned a mayor who was convicted of criminal contempt for racially profiling Latinos.

He called NFL players who protested police brutality against black people by kneeling during the anthem 'sons of bitches' and said they should be fired.

He retweeted anti-Muslim videos from the deputy leader of a British ultranationalist hate group.

He is reported to have referred to Haiti, El Salvador, and African nations as '****hole countries', questioned why the USA would want to allow immigrants from those countries, and suggested the US try to get more immigrants from places like Norway.

He presided over a policy of separating immigrant children from their parents.

He suggested that four congresswomen of colour, all of whom were American citizens and three of whom were born in the USA, go back to their countries.

He kept referring to COVID-19 as the 'Chinese virus' even after the World Health Organisation advised him not to because it could give rise to racial profiling.

He tweeted a video of his supporter shouting 'white power' at anti-Trump supporters.

He called the phrase 'Black Lives Matter' a 'symbol of hate'.

He promised to veto a Defence bill, over a provision for removing the names of Confederate generals from military bases.

He declined to condemn the Proud Boys, white supremacists who endorse violence.

 

If it's not clear to you that Trump is racist, that does not reflect well on you.

Lets just agree to disagree

I appreciate the effort and examples you using but you basically doing the same thing you did with the 7-8 points in a previous post. Each of these examples you have quoted can and should  be discussed separately to interpret what Trump meant and include context and then in several examples I know thats  not what he really meant 

But that doesn't mean everything in this post is inaccurate. The reality is I dont think either of us has the interest to now start unpacking every  statement that Trump had made in your list  because I am not disputing he has said offensive things  and  made racist comments 

Im saying I cant say he is definitely a normal racist like a Neo-Nazi or white supremacist 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 13 by BruceVC

[Lexx]

Bruh, if it quaks like a duck.... This is kinda infuriating and almost makes me wonder if you just do this for trolling. If so then good job, it's working. Or - I'm really sorry for writing that, but - maybe you are mentally handicapped? There's a bazillion examples that show who Trump really is, yet you still go "hmmm but what if not? " .. seriously? This is vatnik level of cope.

So what if Trump is actually super inclusive and not racist at all? He still says lots of racist garbage. It doesn't matter if deep down in his heart he is actually not a racist... what he shows to the outside is... making him look like a racist.

Edited August 13 by Lexx

[Hurlshort]

24 minutes ago, Lexx said:

 

So what if Trump is actually super inclusive and not racist at all? He still says lots of racist garbage. It doesn't matter if deep down in his heart he is actually not a racist... what he shows to the outside is... making him look like a racist.

I'd say he's super exclusive. He doesn't care what color your skin is as long as you can feed his ego.  

[Malcador]

8 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Im saying I cant say he is definitely a normal racist like a Neo-Nazi or white supremacist 

That's your idea of a "normal" racist ?

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Malcador said:

That's your idea of a "normal" racist ?

Well yes, normal  is  not  the right  word. Cultural  or ideological racism like  a white supremacist  is  a more  accurate framing of this group

There  are  people where  bigotry is inculcated into them from childhood, through families or  lived experience.  They dont apologize  or  see anything wrong with it, its  what they believe 

But  then there  are  people who   might say something offensive  or racist or maybe they lack sensitivity but they might not realize they   being racist and they dont want to  be thought of as  racist. And  they would apologize if they say something offensive 

They not the same as  first group

 

 

[Hurlshort]

17 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

 

But  then there  are  people who   might say something offensive  or racist or maybe they lack sensitivity but they might not realize they   being racist and they dont want to  be thought of as  racist. And  they would apologize if they say something offensive 

They not the same as  first group

Trump doesn't apologize. 

[BruceVC]

51 minutes ago, Hurlshort said:

Trump doesn't apologize. 

True,  he very seldom  apologizes but he has sometimes  like when he offended many women in  2016 in the  videotape scandal  

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-37594918

 

[Gfted1]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

There  are  people where  bigotry is inculcated into them from childhood, through families or  lived experience.  They dont apologize  or  see anything wrong with it, its  what they believe 

This is my experience. Now it may be different nowadays, but I was born and raised a long long time ago in the reddest of redneck states, Florida. Both my parent and extended family were racist in our everyday life to the point that it seemed normal. Like dropping the n-word in casual conversation wasnt at all unusual. It wasnt until I joined the military at 18 and got out of that forsaken state, and actually got to meet and know different races, that I could look back and see the errors of my upbringing. I said it before and Ill say it again; monkey see monkey do. Racism is 100% learned.