The All Things Political Topic - Politics is the entertainment division of the military industrial complex

[BruceVC]

16 hours ago, Sarex said:

How are the power outages nowadays?

Better, it always depends on the EAF  ( energy availability factor ) which  is measured  by the reality  of  generators in power  stations that are active and  aren't falling over and then they require immediate repair 

So what  has been happening the last 2-3 years, which has been the worst period  for load   shedding, we basically have the same  power  stations constantly not producing the electricity they supposed to because there generators   keep breaking but Eskom  has been working hard   to  fix the problems in these power stations 

And when these   are working then the EAF is better, 60%  or so,  so we  have vastly less load shedding. So  this week I have only had 1x2  hour load  shedding window per day in normal hours  (6am-midnight )and then for the 2 weeks before that there  was  no load shedding

So its getting better  but load shedding will  continue until   we  are less dependant on the Eskom grid and thats also happening with green energy and private sector   investment but this will take 2-3  years before we see its benefit

 

 

 

 

[BruceVC]

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ohio-votes-to-codify-abortion-rights-into-state-constitution_n_65411b43e4b0ae2dc0b56c1a?yptr=yahoo

There  have been some interesting election outcomes in the US but not surprising  with abortion rights being supported in Ohio and the legalization of  cannabis

Overturning  R vs W I maintain was the worst GOP supported  and Conservative decision the SC could have ever made around overall public sentiment, I understand this is an emotional and sensitive topic  but the SC decision is seen by most women as taking away a  fundamental right that women should have 

The  real question now  is  "will the anger about  R vs W be greater than  other issues in the US in the 2024 election " ?

 

[Gorth]

11 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ohio-votes-to-codify-abortion-rights-into-state-constitution_n_65411b43e4b0ae2dc0b56c1a?yptr=yahoo

There  have been some interesting election outcomes in the US but not surprising  with abortion rights being supported in Ohio and the legalization of  cannabis

Overturning  R vs W I maintain was the worst GOP supported  and Conservative decision the SC could have ever made around overall public sentiment, I understand this is an emotional and sensitive topic  but the SC decision is seen by most women as taking away a  fundamental right that women should have 

The  real question now  is  "will the anger about  R vs W be greater than  other issues in the US in the 2024 election " ?

 

Despite being "pro choice" by nature, I can see the logic of R vs W not really being in the constitution, but something that is up to the state governments to decide on. As long as the states don't "overreach" and try to prevent their citizens to visit other states or prosecute medical staff other states for violating their own, stricter laws. It's supposedly a free country and people should be free to travel and have medical procedures done at a location of their choice. Just my $0.25 and as somebody without a womb to boot.

 

[BruceVC]

13 minutes ago, Gorth said:

Despite being "pro choice" by nature, I can see the logic of R vs W not really being in the constitution, but something that is up to the state governments to decide on. As long as the states don't "overreach" and try to prevent their citizens to visit other states or prosecute medical staff other states for violating their own, stricter laws. It's supposedly a free country and people should be free to travel and have medical procedures done at a location of their choice. Just my $0.25 and as somebody without a womb to boot.

 

Yes and each state should vote  on that outcome and  the Federal government should  stay out of it because I believe its such a  sensitive issue you will get criticism  either way the Federal  government influences things 

But I  do believe overturning R  vs W  was  also a massive mistake because this is seen by many US citizens as  taking away an established  and decades  long women's right. So I understand the anger and pushback  

 

[uuuhhii]

59 minutes ago, Gorth said:

Despite being "pro choice" by nature, I can see the logic of R vs W not really being in the constitution, but something that is up to the state governments to decide on. As long as the states don't "overreach" and try to prevent their citizens to visit other states or prosecute medical staff other states for violating their own, stricter laws. It's supposedly a free country and people should be free to travel and have medical procedures done at a location of their choice. Just my $0.25 and as somebody without a womb to boot.

 

cheap pill at every pharmacy

anything less would be choice for the rich but not the poor

it is simple

[BruceVC]

29 minutes ago, uuuhhii said:

cheap pill at every pharmacy

anything less would be choice for the rich but not the poor

it is simple

Nah, its definitely  more  complicated than that

There is  a reality where people dont  take  any responsibility for  a women falling pregnant and the solution  is a simple " thats okay, just get an abortion " and this comes from men as well as  women

And  abortion can create real long-term mental problems like depression.  So I dont accept the idea that "  a cheap pill at every pharmacy " is the right solution. You need counseling and other similar support before deciding to abort  

 

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by BruceVC

[xzar_monty]

3 hours ago, BruceVC said:

And  abortion can create real long-term mental problems like depression.  So I dont accept the idea that "  a cheap pill at every pharmacy " is the right solution. You need counseling and other similar support before deciding to abort

Are you implying that the decision to abort or not is for someone other than the pregnant woman to make? If not, why is counseling and other similar support necessary, and what is wrong with the cheap pill option?

I accept that the situation is extremely complicated. A comparison: alcohol can and does create real long-term mental problems like depression, and is also a significant contributing factor in most violent crimes and homicides. Yet, we have cheap booze everywhere. Should it be otherwise, in your opinion?

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, xzar_monty said:

Are you implying that the decision to abort or not is for someone other than the pregnant woman to make? If not, why is counseling and other similar support necessary, and what is wrong with the cheap pill option?

I accept that the situation is extremely complicated. A comparison: alcohol can and does create real long-term mental problems like depression, and is also a significant contributing factor in most violent crimes and homicides. Yet, we have cheap booze everywhere. Should it be otherwise, in your opinion?

The decision to get an abortion is generally always a complicated one  and how its decided on and how the women  gets support during and afterwards matters

For example a 14 year  will hopefully have her parents involved and for many people   they  consider abortion to be anathema due to religious reasons so if they want to  get an abortion they will need support  from  family and ways to balance their religious beliefs. I dont think a "  cheap pill "  at a supermarket should ever be an option unless it comes with the required counseling and understanding of the decision. Because you cant take it back once its done 

It will be ultimately the womens  choice but you also want partners  to be involved who understand this difficult decision 

And its not the   same as alcohol abuse at all. Thats about an addiction and abuse  of a substance  that most people dont abuse. But there many examples of alcoholics who beat the addiction and they live  a  normal and better life

I know personally of 2 women who had  abortions when they were  18-19 years  old  and they suffered  emotionally for years in different ways afterwards but  only 5-6 years later and it  was  mostly around guilt  and a sense of betraying the maternal instinct that most women have,  well thats how they explained it to me 

Edited November 8, 2023 by BruceVC

[xzar_monty]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

I dont think a "  cheap pill "  at a supermarket should ever be an option unless it comes with the required counseling and understanding of the decision. Because you cant take it back once its done

So you are in effect saying that the choice is not for the woman herself to make and that someone other than the woman herself knows better. That is quite odd, in my view, but of course, this is precisely what the religious right, for instance, in the US if fighting for, sometimes quite literally.

As for you bringing up 14-year-olds, that looks like a cop-out to me, because 14-year-olds are minors and therefore not permitted to make many other choices, either.

[BruceVC]

22 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

So you are in effect saying that the choice is not for the woman herself to make and that someone other than the woman herself knows better. That is quite odd, in my view, but of course, this is precisely what the religious right, for instance, in the US if fighting for, sometimes quite literally.

As for you bringing up 14-year-olds, that looks like a cop-out to me, because 14-year-olds are minors and therefore not permitted to make many other choices, either.

Nope in many countries a teenager doesnt need  permission  from parents to get an abortion, like SA,  so its not a  cope-out. Its a reality and so is the possible negative   emotional outcome  which for some reason you seem  to  be ignoring?

https://www.womens-choice.co.za/permission-abortion-south-africa/

And Im not saying that, I explained its ultimately the women's choice but a "  cheap pill "  is not the solution   because thats basically commoditizing the entire abortion process  in a tick-box and thats not what  abortion is

Do you know anyone who has had an abortion at a young age or even an older   age? Have you asked them how they feel  about it?

 

[Gfted1]

"Abortion should include counseling."

"You religious nutter!"

 Internet, please never change.

[xzar_monty]

2 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Nope in many countries a teenager doesnt need  permission  from parents to get an abortion, like SA,  so its not a  cope-out. Its a reality and so is the possible negative   emotional outcome  which for some reason you seem  to  be ignoring?

Of course I am not ignoring it. Don't be silly, please. The negative emotional outcomes from both having an abortion and not having an abortion can be quite serious, to the point of derailing a life for quite some time.

My question was whether the pregnant woman herself is the person who gets to choose whether to have an abortion or not.

[Hurlshort]

In terms of parent permission, it's pretty clear to me that if a teenager is having unprotected sex without their parent's knowledge, and then wants to go get an abortion, again without the parent's knowledge, that parent has already failed on many levels. There are far too many crappy parents out there for me to think they deserve to be included in such a serious situation. 

Of course, counseling services are a must. That is what Planned Parenthood actually does. They counsel women and offer them aid. I've had 2 co-workers who credit Planned Parenthood with helping them deal with their teenage pregnancies. Both chose not to abort, and planned parenthood gave them the resources to get through school, go to college, and they eventually ended up teaching.

[xzar_monty]

5 minutes ago, Hurlshort said:

In terms of parent permission, it's pretty clear to me that if a teenager is having unprotected sex without their parent's knowledge, and then wants to go get an abortion, again without the parent's knowledge, that parent has already failed on many levels. There are far too many crappy parents out there for me to think they deserve to be included in such a serious situation.

Yeah, it's a shame that there are no checks in place as to who gets to be a parent.

Something similar exists in democracy: while it's great that everybody gets to vote, the downside of this is that everybody, indeed, gets to vote.

[uuuhhii]

does the counseling come before or after the pill who can afford it who is offering it

paster friend of the parent maybe

no matter how nice the word it will be another choice for the rich situation

taking away the cheap pill everywhere would cause far more trauma

so it is simple

Edited November 9, 2023 by uuuhhii

[BruceVC]

13 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

Of course I am not ignoring it. Don't be silly, please. The negative emotional outcomes from both having an abortion and not having an abortion can be quite serious, to the point of derailing a life for quite some time.

My question was whether the pregnant woman herself is the person who gets to choose whether to have an abortion or not.

Yes and I have answered that question, its the womens choice because she is having the baby. But when it comes  to a minor its critical that parents are  involved in whatever  decision is made and I am  talking about most  parents who care about their  children, this obviously wouldn't apply to incest 

But certain countries allow a minor to decide  that without parents being involved and I dont agree with that. But thats  a separate issue  

And obviously the partner should be consulted which in most healthy  relationships you would assume that would be done but end of the day its the womens  choice 

 

[BruceVC]

10 hours ago, Hurlshort said:

In terms of parent permission, it's pretty clear to me that if a teenager is having unprotected sex without their parent's knowledge, and then wants to go get an abortion, again without the parent's knowledge, that parent has already failed on many levels. There are far too many crappy parents out there for me to think they deserve to be included in such a serious situation. 

Of course, counseling services are a must. That is what Planned Parenthood actually does. They counsel women and offer them aid. I've had 2 co-workers who credit Planned Parenthood with helping them deal with their teenage pregnancies. Both chose not to abort, and planned parenthood gave them the resources to get through school, go to college, and they eventually ended up teaching.

Unfortunately its more complicated  than that  in SA, I cant comment on the US for underage pregnancy 

You have single parents working or grandparents raising kids and we have a massive problem with underage pregnancies. And the minor falling pregnant is not always because of   bad parenting, sometimes this is a outcome of societal conditions. For example teachers getting kids  pregnant  and the parents are unaware because  its assumed you can trust the teachers 

But the decision to get an  abortion is still a  serious decision that requires parents to be involved with  whatever emotional trauma may  or may not occur afterwards. So its not  always  about bad parenting 

 

 

[BruceVC]

3 hours ago, uuuhhii said:

does the counseling come before or after the pill who can afford it who is offering it

paster friend of the parent maybe

no matter how nice the word it will be another choice for the rich situation

taking away the cheap pill everywhere would cause far more trauma

so it is simple

But  that's   not   what we saying, we not saying take away abortion. Im  saying a   " cheap pill ' sold  at a supermarket  without counseling is not  the best long-term solution 

 

So its not simple 

[uuuhhii]

5 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

But  that's   not   what we saying, we not saying take away abortion. Im  saying a   " cheap pill ' sold  at a supermarket  without counseling is not  the best long-term solution 

 

So its not simple 

no one can afford to wait for best long term solution

might as well also wait for world peace and ending hunger

taking away cheap pill everywhere is taking away abortion from vast majority of people

does one have the option to not get counseling before they are allowed to get pill

this seems extremely controlling no matter how much one insist on using nice word like counsel

[BruceVC]

9 minutes ago, uuuhhii said:

no one can afford to wait for best long term solution

might as well also wait for world peace and ending hunger

taking away cheap pill everywhere is taking away abortion from vast majority of people

does one have the option to not get counseling before they are allowed to get pill

this seems extremely controlling no matter how much one insist on using nice word like counsel

No,  its not the same as ending hunger or world peace because there are already institutions like Planned  Parenting that are established and provide  abortion services and counseling. We have  similar ones  in SA  

 

So we  have solutions   in countries that allow abortions unlike achieving world  peace which is unlikely in our lifetimes 

And I doubt  Planned Parenting would suggest a  "  cheap supermarket pill "  without counseling but @Hurlshort  can comment 

[uuuhhii]

11 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

No,  its not the same as ending hunger or world peace because there are already institutions like Planned  Parenting that are established and provide  abortion services and counseling. We have  similar ones  in SA  

 

So we  have solutions   in countries that allow abortions unlike achieving world  peace which is unlikely in our lifetimes 

And I doubt  Planned Parenting would suggest a  "  cheap supermarket pill "  without counseling but @Hurlshort  can comment 

so it is locked behind counsel

that would be nightmare

that is like saying people have peace at place where there is no war

24 hour convenient store and pharmacy are almost everywhere with population big enough to support them

limit access is again limitation only on the poor

Edited November 9, 2023 by uuuhhii

[xzar_monty]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

But  that's   not   what we saying, we not saying take away abortion. Im  saying a   " cheap pill ' sold  at a supermarket  without counseling is not  the best long-term solution

Your argument still hinges on taking away some extremely important options from people who are already in a disadvantageous position. You coat it in nice language, but that's what it comes down to.

[ShadySands]

Yeah, I live in the US where we now* have a patchwork of laws regarding abortion and not everyone can afford to travel to a neighboring state (or if in the deep south cross several states) to get the care they're seeking.

The best way to reduce abortions is to improve sexual education and provide free and super low cost contraception. The problem here is that a lot of places teach abstinence only or sometimes nothing at all. Because you know, if you don't teach your kids they won't figure it out.

Shady story time. I think I've mentioned before that went to Teen Pregnancy High School. It was the school that all other schools would ship their pregnant students to because we had the best programs for teen moms because our rate was super high. Even before high school we had two girls get pregnant between elementary and middle school and a good handful more get pregnant in middle school. Anyways, so many stories I heard were simply because they didn't have access to contraception. Sex is going to happen no matter what so the best thing you can do is set kids up for success.

* We always had a patchwork but it was technically legal everywhere even though some states made it a hard as they could get away with.

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by ShadySands

[Keyrock]

Last night's 3rd republican debate was a huge improvement over the 2nd one (not exactly a high bar to clear) largely on the shoulders of one man. It was worth suffering through parts of that just for Vivek Ramaswamy's GLORIOUS torching of RNC chair Ronna McDaniel. My dude had the big schlong energy last night, he came out swinging and was torching people left and right. Plus he has the most sane policies out of all the people that were on that stage, go figure. I don't know how genuine he is in his convictions, time will tell, I guess, but, if nothing else, he is entertaining. Mind you, not Ross Perot levels of entertaining. That guy was the greatest.

ABSOLUTE. ****ING. LEGEND.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Keyrock

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

As someone who lives in a state where abortion is banned and where travel is now being attempted to be banned, abortion shouldn't be the decision of anyone but the pregnant person and their doctor. Not the local, state, federal government or even the parents if applicable.

1 hour ago, ShadySands said:

I've mentioned before that went to Teen Pregnancy High School. It was the school that all other schools would ship their pregnant students to because we had the best programs for teen moms because our rate was super high. Even before high school we had two girls get pregnant between elementary and middle school and a good handful more get pregnant in middle school. Anyways, so many stories I heard were simply because they didn't have access to contraception. Sex is going to happen no matter what so the best thing you can do is set kids up for success.

For the school district I went to, my highschool was also the one with the most pregnant and parent students. So much so they made a daycare and a playground for the kids. Sex education was abstinence only and that absolutely did not work.