Historical misrepresentation of race in documentaries\movies, whats your view?

[BruceVC]

I wanted to create a dedicated thread to this topic because its not a political or culture wars debate. There are  several global examples of this and I want to get people's views, this is not about fantasy or superhero movies. This is about documentaries about history. It got me thinking with the Netflix Cleopatra outcry but it applies to all historical documentaries 

But I will use the Cleopatra documentary  as an example and provide context for those not familiar with this current furore 

The latest Netflix documentary has Cleopatra as a black women and the reasonable criticism is she was not black. Here is a good link that attempts to explain her race,

https://www.knowledgesnacks.com/articles/cleopatras-ethnicity/

To quote from the link " 

So only 25% of Cleopatra’s racial makeup is certain: through her grandfather, Cleopatra was 25% European and Middle Eastern.

The other 75% is inconclusive. It could have been European, Middle Eastern, North African, sub-Saharan African, or a mix of any of those.

To simplify: Cleopatra could have been 100% Caucasian, or she could have been mixed (Caucasian+sub-Saharan African) "

So there is no  real debate that Cleopatra was black which makes the Netflix documentary inaccurate. Also Netflix is getting sued from groups in Egypt who are also outraged. There view to quote is " 

"The complaint submitted against the streaming platform alleged that "most of what Netflix platform displays contradicts Islamic and societal values and principles, especially Egyptian ones.", Greek city times reported.

The case said that the documentary promotes Afrocentrism that is widely spread on social media, which have slogans and writings aimed at distorting and obliterating the Egyptian identity"

https://www.africanews.com/2023/04/20/egyptian-lawyer-sues-netflix-for-depicting-cleopatra-as-black-woman/#:~:text=An Egyptian lawyer has taken legal action against,the trailer for the upcoming movie%2C "Queen Cleopatra."

So thats why the outrage is more than just US culture wars theater and hyperbole

But whats you view on the correct race being portrayed in historical movies? I think the correct race should be used if you want to create an accurate historical account and avoid the type of criticism the Cleopatra movie has created 

 

 

 

[majestic]

I'm not racist, but brown people complaining about browner people playing brown people? Yeah, don't care, wake me when whites are threatened. Or hot Asian women!

edit:

55 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

"The complaint submitted against the streaming platform alleged that "most of what Netflix platform displays contradicts Islamic and societal values and principles, especially Egyptian ones.", Greek city times reported.

Islamic values of Ancient Egypt? Well, someone's historically inaccurate all right.

Edited May 4, 2023 by majestic

[xzar_monty]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

So only 25% of Cleopatra’s racial makeup is certain: through her grandfather, Cleopatra was 25% European and Middle Eastern.

 

I think the correct race should be used if you want to create an accurate historical account and avoid the type of criticism the Cleopatra movie has created

These two points are, in a way, in contradiction with one another. If indeed only 25% of Cleopatra's racial makeup is certain, then there is no way to know what is the correct race, and from that it follows that it's not possible to avoid this type of criticism no matter which race within the limits prescribed you portray her as being.

[Gorth]

Yeah, that was a bit funny. Not even ancient, just 600-800 years ago, neither Egypt nor Libya were Arab. They all came with the recent Arab invasions and conquests 

[BruceVC]

2 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

These two points are, in a way, in contradiction with one another. If indeed only 25% of Cleopatra's racial makeup is certain, then there is no way to know what is the correct race, and from that it follows that it's not possible to avoid this type of criticism no matter which race within the limits prescribed you portray her as being.

True but we know she wasnt black which is what  the main criticism is about 

If the actress was played by an Arab\Egyptian then I doubt you would have the same outcry?

 

[xzar_monty]

7 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

True but we know she wasnt black which is what  the main criticism is about

"The other 75% is inconclusive. It could have been European, Middle Eastern, North African, sub-Saharan African, or a mix of any of those."

To me, this doesn't say that we know she wasn't black.

For instance, if she was 25% European and Middle Eastern as stated and if the other 75% was sub-Saharan African, then she might very well be "black". If not, why? "Black" here would mean, for instance, "made to sit at the back of the bus in the 1950s Alabama".

Edited May 4, 2023 by xzar_monty

[BruceVC]

36 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

"The other 75% is inconclusive. It could have been European, Middle Eastern, North African, sub-Saharan African, or a mix of any of those."

To me, this doesn't say that we know she wasn't black.

For instance, if she was 25% European and Middle Eastern as stated and if the other 75% was sub-Saharan African, then she might very well be "black". If not, why? "Black" here would mean, for instance, "made to sit at the back of the bus in the 1950s Alabama".

Okay it seems like you misunderstanding something about race and the issue

In Africa the word black refers specifically to Bantu tribes and other similar tribes. Arabs are not black and Khoisan  are not black, they have their own culture, history  and ethnicity 

Mixed race is not seen by most as black and then you get a specific race in SA called Colored people  who are there own race and descendants of white people and the SAN

So when we talk about black in the Netflix issues we are talking about Cleopatra's race. She wasnt black, she was mixed race or Caucasian. And this is not about the US definition  

An example of a famous  black historical figure is Steve Biko who is considered the father of Black Consciousness. No one refers to him as mixed race or Colored, he is black  

 

 

[Pidesco]

[HoonDing]

I support making every actor rainbow coloured to trigger even more snowflakes.

[Gorth]

There is only one movie Cleopatra...

[LadyCrimson]

We could all just perm-dye ourselves the same, singular color at birth, then maybe people could stop having fits over color casting.

...as long as they're not doing stuff akin to actual blackface or adhesive taping eye corners to give actors slanting eyes etc, I don't really care.

...especially since, while I assume there will be the usual solemn narration of historical stuff, it's also a docu-drama. I would suspect there may be a lot of "artistic" interpretation re: much more than the uproar in question, if other similar series I've tried to watch (initially thinking they were actual documentaries, not docu-dramas) are any indication. eg, mostly an exercise in visual fantasy as an effort to cater to modern audience retention.

[Gorth]

Usually it's Disney that gets an earful for "white washing" their characters... but it's less about race and more about cultural appropriation in general, isn't it?

How dare you take something I consider "MY" culture and have it being portrayed by somebody who doesn't appear to be like me. Never mind it wasn't my culture to begin with, but I would like to believe that.

Particularly hilarious in this case, because the Egyptians , as I mentioned in my first post, especially around 30BC were not really related to Arabs (which is today is part of the 90% majority of the current population living in Egypt, 10% being Kopts or some such, descendants of the pre-Arab/Greek population. I remember similar conversations, in a somewhat more civilized way, taking place in New Zealand when Pakehas were performing the Haka. A bit of outrage, lots of mocking.

Personally I find it worse that Rings of Power portrays Galadriel as a low-brow thug rather than classy Noldor nobility

Edit: Not sure if the correct form is Noldor or Noldo when used in this context

[Malcador]

5 hours ago, BruceVC said:

because its not a political or culture wars debate.

Right.

[LadyCrimson]

12 minutes ago, Gorth said:

 but it's less about race and more about cultural appropriation in general, isn't it?

I agree with this and I think it's often so in many of these cases. Maybe not all of them, but a lot.

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Malcador said:

Right.

No its not for everyone and its not for Egyptians who are offended because they dont believe it represents Egyptian history . People dont object to things just  because of culture wars, sometimes there is real  outrage because things are ostensibly historically inaccurate

[Malcador]

3 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

No its not for everyone and its not for Egyptians who are offended because they dont believe it represents Egyptian history . People dont object to things just  because of culture wars, sometimes there is real  outrage because things are ostensibly historically inaccurate

I'm not too generous with people complaining about such things online.  In any case, is this actually a documentary ? I see it referred to as "docudrama" which leads to me believe the overall accuracy will be on par with Braveheart.

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Gorth said:

Usually it's Disney that gets an earful for "white washing" their characters... but it's less about race and more about cultural appropriation in general, isn't it?

How dare you take something I consider "MY" culture and have it being portrayed by somebody who doesn't appear to be like me. Never mind it wasn't my culture to begin with, but I would like to believe that.

Particularly hilarious in this case, because the Egyptians , as I mentioned in my first post, especially around 30BC were not really related to Arabs (which is today is part of the 90% majority of the current population living in Egypt, 10% being Kopts or some such, descendants of the pre-Arab/Greek population. I remember similar conversations, in a somewhat more civilized way, taking place in New Zealand when Pakehas were performing the Haka. A bit of outrage, lots of mocking.

Personally I find it worse that Rings of Power portrays Galadriel as a low-brow thug rather than classy Noldor nobility

Edit: Not sure if the correct form is Noldor or Noldo when used in this context

Yes I would agree  its more about  cultural appropriation which is why  that lawyer suing said  its "  trying to create an Afrocentric view " and ignoring the Egyptian identity 

[majestic]

2 minutes ago, Malcador said:

I'm not too generous with people complaining about such things online.  In any case, is this actually a documentary ? I see it referred to as "docudrama" which leads to me believe the overall accuracy will be on par with Braveheart.

What do you mean, Bravehart was not a documentary?

[Pidesco]

5 minutes ago, majestic said:

What do you mean, Bravehart was not a documentary?

Braveheart is as historical as Willow.

[BruceVC]

4 minutes ago, Pidesco said:

Braveheart is as historical as Willow.

I was a little unhappy  by Braveheart, they always portray the English as the worst types of people in that era  like in Rob Roy 

[Pidesco]

57 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

I was a little unhappy  by Braveheart, they always portray the English as the worst types of people in that era  like in Rob Roy 

The British have often been the worst, in any era. Although for a long time, the worst Brits were French.

[LadyCrimson]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

Yes I would agree  its more about  cultural appropriation which is why  that lawyer suing said  its "  trying to create an Afrocentric view " and ignoring the Egyptian identity 

the problem I have with stuff like that is they're getting up in arms over a 2 minute trailer and because (i'd guess) in it some woman also declares - paraphrasing - "never mind what school says, she was black". Point being, they haven't even seen a single full episode. I saw nothing in that trailer that looked wildly "Afrocentric" (in terms of say costumes, sets) culturally, only that the actress ... is black. At least wait and watch it, to see if it badly disrespects actual culture/historical events.

Edited May 4, 2023 by LadyCrimson

[Hurlshort]

White folks been playing minorities for over a century, so I'd say this is no big deal. I hope Egypt got upset about this abomination as well.

[Gfted1]

It grinds my gears when they dont use actual invalids for roles that dictate such.

[Mamoulian War]

In a fiction, I do not care if Caesar is portrayed as black or Martin Luther King as asian. It’s up to the director to make the the movie worth watching while offering plausible enough justifications for the race swaps. Although, I can get annoyed, of someone raceswaps Hill Dwarfs with Duergars But anything, which calls itself a documentary should stick to the real facts, else you end up sooner or later with the “true” history, where Ukrainians or Jews are not a nation

That being said Cleopatra was of Ptolemaian heritage, who were well know for “enjoying” quite a bit of interbreeding, which makes it very implausible, that she was anything but a Greek/Macedonian woman with a healthy dose of tan from all of that sunbathing under Egyptian skies.