BruceVC Posted May 4, 2023 Posted May 4, 2023 I wanted to create a dedicated thread to this topic because its not a political or culture wars debate. There are several global examples of this and I want to get people's views, this is not about fantasy or superhero movies. This is about documentaries about history. It got me thinking with the Netflix Cleopatra outcry but it applies to all historical documentaries But I will use the Cleopatra documentary as an example and provide context for those not familiar with this current furore The latest Netflix documentary has Cleopatra as a black women and the reasonable criticism is she was not black. Here is a good link that attempts to explain her race, https://www.knowledgesnacks.com/articles/cleopatras-ethnicity/ To quote from the link " So only 25% of Cleopatra’s racial makeup is certain: through her grandfather, Cleopatra was 25% European and Middle Eastern. The other 75% is inconclusive. It could have been European, Middle Eastern, North African, sub-Saharan African, or a mix of any of those. To simplify: Cleopatra could have been 100% Caucasian, or she could have been mixed (Caucasian+sub-Saharan African) " So there is no real debate that Cleopatra was black which makes the Netflix documentary inaccurate. Also Netflix is getting sued from groups in Egypt who are also outraged. There view to quote is " "The complaint submitted against the streaming platform alleged that "most of what Netflix platform displays contradicts Islamic and societal values and principles, especially Egyptian ones.", Greek city times reported. The case said that the documentary promotes Afrocentrism that is widely spread on social media, which have slogans and writings aimed at distorting and obliterating the Egyptian identity" https://www.africanews.com/2023/04/20/egyptian-lawyer-sues-netflix-for-depicting-cleopatra-as-black-woman/#:~:text=An Egyptian lawyer has taken legal action against,the trailer for the upcoming movie%2C "Queen Cleopatra." So thats why the outrage is more than just US culture wars theater and hyperbole But whats you view on the correct race being portrayed in historical movies? I think the correct race should be used if you want to create an accurate historical account and avoid the type of criticism the Cleopatra movie has created "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
majestic Posted May 4, 2023 Posted May 4, 2023 (edited) I'm not racist, but brown people complaining about browner people playing brown people? Yeah, don't care, wake me when whites are threatened. Or hot Asian women! edit: 55 minutes ago, BruceVC said: "The complaint submitted against the streaming platform alleged that "most of what Netflix platform displays contradicts Islamic and societal values and principles, especially Egyptian ones.", Greek city times reported. Islamic values of Ancient Egypt? Well, someone's historically inaccurate all right. Edited May 4, 2023 by majestic No mind to think. No will to break. No voice to cry suffering.
xzar_monty Posted May 4, 2023 Posted May 4, 2023 1 hour ago, BruceVC said: So only 25% of Cleopatra’s racial makeup is certain: through her grandfather, Cleopatra was 25% European and Middle Eastern. I think the correct race should be used if you want to create an accurate historical account and avoid the type of criticism the Cleopatra movie has created These two points are, in a way, in contradiction with one another. If indeed only 25% of Cleopatra's racial makeup is certain, then there is no way to know what is the correct race, and from that it follows that it's not possible to avoid this type of criticism no matter which race within the limits prescribed you portray her as being.
Gorth Posted May 4, 2023 Posted May 4, 2023 Yeah, that was a bit funny. Not even ancient, just 600-800 years ago, neither Egypt nor Libya were Arab. They all came with the recent Arab invasions and conquests “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein
BruceVC Posted May 4, 2023 Author Posted May 4, 2023 2 minutes ago, xzar_monty said: These two points are, in a way, in contradiction with one another. If indeed only 25% of Cleopatra's racial makeup is certain, then there is no way to know what is the correct race, and from that it follows that it's not possible to avoid this type of criticism no matter which race within the limits prescribed you portray her as being. True but we know she wasnt black which is what the main criticism is about If the actress was played by an Arab\Egyptian then I doubt you would have the same outcry? "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
xzar_monty Posted May 4, 2023 Posted May 4, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, BruceVC said: True but we know she wasnt black which is what the main criticism is about "The other 75% is inconclusive. It could have been European, Middle Eastern, North African, sub-Saharan African, or a mix of any of those." To me, this doesn't say that we know she wasn't black. For instance, if she was 25% European and Middle Eastern as stated and if the other 75% was sub-Saharan African, then she might very well be "black". If not, why? "Black" here would mean, for instance, "made to sit at the back of the bus in the 1950s Alabama". Edited May 4, 2023 by xzar_monty
BruceVC Posted May 4, 2023 Author Posted May 4, 2023 36 minutes ago, xzar_monty said: "The other 75% is inconclusive. It could have been European, Middle Eastern, North African, sub-Saharan African, or a mix of any of those." To me, this doesn't say that we know she wasn't black. For instance, if she was 25% European and Middle Eastern as stated and if the other 75% was sub-Saharan African, then she might very well be "black". If not, why? "Black" here would mean, for instance, "made to sit at the back of the bus in the 1950s Alabama". Okay it seems like you misunderstanding something about race and the issue In Africa the word black refers specifically to Bantu tribes and other similar tribes. Arabs are not black and Khoisan are not black, they have their own culture, history and ethnicity Mixed race is not seen by most as black and then you get a specific race in SA called Colored people who are there own race and descendants of white people and the SAN So when we talk about black in the Netflix issues we are talking about Cleopatra's race. She wasnt black, she was mixed race or Caucasian. And this is not about the US definition An example of a famous black historical figure is Steve Biko who is considered the father of Black Consciousness. No one refers to him as mixed race or Colored, he is black "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Pidesco Posted May 4, 2023 Posted May 4, 2023 1 "My hovercraft is full of eels!" - Hungarian touristI am Dan Quayle of the Romans.I want to tattoo a map of the Netherlands on my nether lands.Heja Sverige!!Everyone should cuffawkle more.The wrench is your friend.
HoonDing Posted May 4, 2023 Posted May 4, 2023 I support making every actor rainbow coloured to trigger even more snowflakes. The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.
Gorth Posted May 4, 2023 Posted May 4, 2023 There is only one movie Cleopatra... “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein
LadyCrimson Posted May 4, 2023 Posted May 4, 2023 We could all just perm-dye ourselves the same, singular color at birth, then maybe people could stop having fits over color casting. ...as long as they're not doing stuff akin to actual blackface or adhesive taping eye corners to give actors slanting eyes etc, I don't really care. ...especially since, while I assume there will be the usual solemn narration of historical stuff, it's also a docu-drama. I would suspect there may be a lot of "artistic" interpretation re: much more than the uproar in question, if other similar series I've tried to watch (initially thinking they were actual documentaries, not docu-dramas) are any indication. eg, mostly an exercise in visual fantasy as an effort to cater to modern audience retention. “Things are as they are. Looking out into the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.” – Alan Watts
Gorth Posted May 4, 2023 Posted May 4, 2023 Usually it's Disney that gets an earful for "white washing" their characters... but it's less about race and more about cultural appropriation in general, isn't it? How dare you take something I consider "MY" culture and have it being portrayed by somebody who doesn't appear to be like me. Never mind it wasn't my culture to begin with, but I would like to believe that. Particularly hilarious in this case, because the Egyptians , as I mentioned in my first post, especially around 30BC were not really related to Arabs (which is today is part of the 90% majority of the current population living in Egypt, 10% being Kopts or some such, descendants of the pre-Arab/Greek population. I remember similar conversations, in a somewhat more civilized way, taking place in New Zealand when Pakehas were performing the Haka. A bit of outrage, lots of mocking. Personally I find it worse that Rings of Power portrays Galadriel as a low-brow thug rather than classy Noldor nobility Edit: Not sure if the correct form is Noldor or Noldo when used in this context 1 “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein
Malcador Posted May 4, 2023 Posted May 4, 2023 5 hours ago, BruceVC said: because its not a political or culture wars debate. Right. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra
LadyCrimson Posted May 4, 2023 Posted May 4, 2023 12 minutes ago, Gorth said: but it's less about race and more about cultural appropriation in general, isn't it? I agree with this and I think it's often so in many of these cases. Maybe not all of them, but a lot. 1 “Things are as they are. Looking out into the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.” – Alan Watts
BruceVC Posted May 4, 2023 Author Posted May 4, 2023 1 hour ago, Malcador said: Right. No its not for everyone and its not for Egyptians who are offended because they dont believe it represents Egyptian history . People dont object to things just because of culture wars, sometimes there is real outrage because things are ostensibly historically inaccurate "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Malcador Posted May 4, 2023 Posted May 4, 2023 3 minutes ago, BruceVC said: No its not for everyone and its not for Egyptians who are offended because they dont believe it represents Egyptian history . People dont object to things just because of culture wars, sometimes there is real outrage because things are ostensibly historically inaccurate I'm not too generous with people complaining about such things online. In any case, is this actually a documentary ? I see it referred to as "docudrama" which leads to me believe the overall accuracy will be on par with Braveheart. 1 Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra
BruceVC Posted May 4, 2023 Author Posted May 4, 2023 1 hour ago, Gorth said: Usually it's Disney that gets an earful for "white washing" their characters... but it's less about race and more about cultural appropriation in general, isn't it? How dare you take something I consider "MY" culture and have it being portrayed by somebody who doesn't appear to be like me. Never mind it wasn't my culture to begin with, but I would like to believe that. Particularly hilarious in this case, because the Egyptians , as I mentioned in my first post, especially around 30BC were not really related to Arabs (which is today is part of the 90% majority of the current population living in Egypt, 10% being Kopts or some such, descendants of the pre-Arab/Greek population. I remember similar conversations, in a somewhat more civilized way, taking place in New Zealand when Pakehas were performing the Haka. A bit of outrage, lots of mocking. Personally I find it worse that Rings of Power portrays Galadriel as a low-brow thug rather than classy Noldor nobility Edit: Not sure if the correct form is Noldor or Noldo when used in this context Yes I would agree its more about cultural appropriation which is why that lawyer suing said its " trying to create an Afrocentric view " and ignoring the Egyptian identity "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
majestic Posted May 4, 2023 Posted May 4, 2023 2 minutes ago, Malcador said: I'm not too generous with people complaining about such things online. In any case, is this actually a documentary ? I see it referred to as "docudrama" which leads to me believe the overall accuracy will be on par with Braveheart. What do you mean, Bravehart was not a documentary? 2 No mind to think. No will to break. No voice to cry suffering.
Pidesco Posted May 4, 2023 Posted May 4, 2023 5 minutes ago, majestic said: What do you mean, Bravehart was not a documentary? Braveheart is as historical as Willow. 1 1 "My hovercraft is full of eels!" - Hungarian touristI am Dan Quayle of the Romans.I want to tattoo a map of the Netherlands on my nether lands.Heja Sverige!!Everyone should cuffawkle more.The wrench is your friend.
BruceVC Posted May 4, 2023 Author Posted May 4, 2023 4 minutes ago, Pidesco said: Braveheart is as historical as Willow. I was a little unhappy by Braveheart, they always portray the English as the worst types of people in that era like in Rob Roy "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Pidesco Posted May 4, 2023 Posted May 4, 2023 57 minutes ago, BruceVC said: I was a little unhappy by Braveheart, they always portray the English as the worst types of people in that era like in Rob Roy The British have often been the worst, in any era. Although for a long time, the worst Brits were French. 1 "My hovercraft is full of eels!" - Hungarian touristI am Dan Quayle of the Romans.I want to tattoo a map of the Netherlands on my nether lands.Heja Sverige!!Everyone should cuffawkle more.The wrench is your friend.
LadyCrimson Posted May 4, 2023 Posted May 4, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, BruceVC said: Yes I would agree its more about cultural appropriation which is why that lawyer suing said its " trying to create an Afrocentric view " and ignoring the Egyptian identity the problem I have with stuff like that is they're getting up in arms over a 2 minute trailer and because (i'd guess) in it some woman also declares - paraphrasing - "never mind what school says, she was black". Point being, they haven't even seen a single full episode. I saw nothing in that trailer that looked wildly "Afrocentric" (in terms of say costumes, sets) culturally, only that the actress ... is black. At least wait and watch it, to see if it badly disrespects actual culture/historical events. Edited May 4, 2023 by LadyCrimson 1 “Things are as they are. Looking out into the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.” – Alan Watts
Hurlshort Posted May 4, 2023 Posted May 4, 2023 White folks been playing minorities for over a century, so I'd say this is no big deal. I hope Egypt got upset about this abomination as well.
Gfted1 Posted May 4, 2023 Posted May 4, 2023 It grinds my gears when they dont use actual invalids for roles that dictate such. "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa"
Mamoulian War Posted May 4, 2023 Posted May 4, 2023 In a fiction, I do not care if Caesar is portrayed as black or Martin Luther King as asian. It’s up to the director to make the the movie worth watching while offering plausible enough justifications for the race swaps. Although, I can get annoyed, of someone raceswaps Hill Dwarfs with Duergars But anything, which calls itself a documentary should stick to the real facts, else you end up sooner or later with the “true” history, where Ukrainians or Jews are not a nation That being said Cleopatra was of Ptolemaian heritage, who were well know for “enjoying” quite a bit of interbreeding, which makes it very implausible, that she was anything but a Greek/Macedonian woman with a healthy dose of tan from all of that sunbathing under Egyptian skies. 1 Sent from my Stone Tablet, using Chisel-a-Talk 2000BC. My youtube channel: MamoulianFH Latest Let's Play Tales of Arise (completed) Latest Bossfight Compilation Dark Souls Remastered - New Game (completed) Let's Play/AAR Europa Universalis 1: Austria Grand Campaign (completed) Let's Play/AAR Europa Universalis 2: Xhosa Grand Campaign (completed) My PS Platinums and 100% - 29 games so far (my PSN profile) 1) God of War III - PS3 - 24+ hours 2) Final Fantasy XIII - PS3 - 130+ hours 3) White Knight Chronicles International Edition - PS3 - 525+ hours 4) Hyperdimension Neptunia - PS3 - 80+ hours 5) Final Fantasy XIII-2 - PS3 - 200+ hours 6) Tales of Xillia - PS3 - 135+ hours 7) Hyperdimension Neptunia mk2 - PS3 - 152+ hours 8.) Grand Turismo 6 - PS3 - 81+ hours (including Senna Master DLC) 9) Demon's Souls - PS3 - 197+ hours 10) Tales of Graces f - PS3 - 337+ hours 11) Star Ocean: The Last Hope International - PS3 - 750+ hours 12) Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII - PS3 - 127+ hours 13) Soulcalibur V - PS3 - 73+ hours 14) Gran Turismo 5 - PS3 - 600+ hours 15) Tales of Xillia 2 - PS3 - 302+ hours 16) Mortal Kombat XL - PS4 - 95+ hours 17) Project CARS Game of the Year Edition - PS4 - 120+ hours 18) Dark Souls - PS3 - 197+ hours 19) Hyperdimension Neptunia Victory - PS3 - 238+ hours 20) Final Fantasy Type-0 - PS4 - 58+ hours 21) Journey - PS4 - 9+ hours 22) Dark Souls II - PS3 - 210+ hours 23) Fairy Fencer F - PS3 - 215+ hours 24) Megadimension Neptunia VII - PS4 - 160 hours 25) Super Neptunia RPG - PS4 - 44+ hours 26) Journey - PS3 - 22+ hours 27) Final Fantasy XV - PS4 - 263+ hours (including all DLCs) 28) Tales of Arise - PS4 - 111+ hours 29) Dark Souls: Remastered - PS4 - 121+ hours
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